So how much does a Doctor really earn? (2 Viewers)

[SWSydneytutor]

A vast majority of them do.

If you don't have any evidence to back up your claims, then don't speak as if they're fact. I'm perfectly fine if you state that that's your opinion, however.

It would be arrogant to claim that medical graduates “don’t earn very much” when medical graduate salaries are clearly and significantly above the Australian average wage. There are far worse graduate salaries out there. Speaking of 'big bucks', are you saying that medical graduates only consider their salary as "big bucks" only when they're receiving the average medical specialist remuneration? Do they consider themselves earning unsatisfactorily "not very much" up to that point?

It’s hypocritical to speak of altruism when you were just talking about a graduate salary of $50-$65k being not very much.

altruism |ˌaltrʊɪz(ə)m|
noun
the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others

​

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. Given that medical students train for more than most other students, and work in absolutely appalling conditions, then yes, I have no qualms with suggesting that $45-60K is disproportionate to their effort and perseverance. We work with a broken system, one where there are not enough resources, not enough beds and too many to care for. Many interns work many hours without pay. Many doctors do not have enough time for their own lives. I have seen many doctors work obscene hours, many without pay. If teachers are allowed to protest their meagre salaries, then so should doctors. I have talked to residents and interns at hospitals who absolutely struggle to have any time at all for their families.

Quite simply, no, it was not hypocritical to discuss altruism and smaller salary packages in the same sentence. People should be allowed to care for others but at the same time, pause and say that their efforts aren't being adequately rewarded. You seem to have missed this rather simple concept. Just like any other job, a person's efforts should be rewarded. Of course there would be no doctors if there was zero pay: doctors are human beings who will have families to feed and who will need time for leisure. But no, apparently doctors should work solely for altruism. OK.

It's not a genuine consolation when they're kicking back with their 6 figure salary while they're lamenting about their career choices...

It should be. You have knowledge that they're unhappy and that no amount of money will allow them to reassess their choices.

You’re missing the point – the com law students are at least honest about their pursuits. They’re not doing it in the guise of “altruism” while receiving a range of (at the very least) above the Australian average wage to the highly obscene 6 or 7 figure salaries.

You're missing the point. I was make a generalisation akin to those made of the previous poster. Obviously not all comm/law students are out to earn six-figure sums a few years after graduation. Also, would anybody be surprised to hear about law/commerce students heading down the paths of investment banking etc. to be more blatant with their intentions? The role of the doctor and the lawyer is different. The role of the doctor in society is to care for others, so of course you'd have more cases of people having some pretty good intentions. Whether they're fake or not is not for you to judge.

I'm rather disillusioned with how everybody expects doctors to be simply in it for the sake altruism, helping people etc., and how they're apparently not meant ot have any consideration for financial matters at all. Doctors are human beings too and they should be afforded the right to consider how much money they'll make. This does not mean that they're in it simply for the money - it may be a factor, but not the sole one. Apparently not everybody can understand this rather simple notion.

 

[SWSydneytutor]

I'll tell you what's worse than choosing medicine for money, your parents forcing you to do it. "I want the best for daughter, Ching Wah" really pisses me off.

Do your parents pressure you to do long term things that you don't want to do? Not like mowing the lawn, but for example doing the HSC at a particular school? Fuck I hate those soccer mums who're grotesque in apparence mainly due to the fact that they indulge in chocolate coated peanuts and 346 latino coffees whateva the fk they are. Wheneva I attend the mbbs open days it appears the asian mthr n fthr drag the child to the course sections, which when completed, offer good money. What we end is a health system where these arsehole Drs, because of their arsehole parents, don't give a flying fk about the patients. Nepean Hospital is an example of dreadful staff who deserve the death penalty. Go to nepean hospital complaining of chest pain, you will wait 13 hours only to be seen by a fkn maggot doc who can't speak nor understand English properly. So you leave angry, see your physician the next day and say, I had chest pain but I didn't stay at the hospital because the doc blames drinking too much water for an irregular heart beat, and the nurses don't speak to people with respect. What the do u want me to do? Go back? Fk u

/rant

The health system is dying but don't worry kids, bacilli will save it.

Yeah I've seen some at medical interviews. It was pretty sad.

 

[iSplicer]

I'll tell you what's worse than choosing medicine for money, your parents forcing you to do it. "I want the best for daughter, Ching Wah" really pisses me off.

Do your parents pressure you to do long term things that you don't want to do? Not like mowing the lawn, but for example doing the HSC at a particular school? Fuck I hate those soccer mums who're grotesque in apparence mainly due to the fact that they indulge in chocolate coated peanuts and 346 latino coffees whateva the fk they are. Wheneva I attend the mbbs open days it appears the asian mthr n fthr drag the child to the course sections, which when completed, offer good money. What we end is a health system where these arsehole Drs, because of their arsehole parents, don't give a flying fk about the patients. Nepean Hospital is an example of dreadful staff who deserve the death penalty. Go to nepean hospital complaining of chest pain, you will wait 13 hours only to be seen by a fkn maggot doc who can't speak nor understand English properly. So you leave angry, see your physician the next day and say, I had chest pain but I didn't stay at the hospital because the doc blames drinking too much water for an irregular heart beat, and the nurses don't speak to people with respect. What the do u want me to do? Go back? Fk u

/rant

The health system is dying but don't worry kids, bacilli will save it.

Racist cunt. Parents know whats best for you, start using your biological imperative and realize some fundamental respect

 

[cutemouse]

lol, I think that train drivers earn more than some doctors...

 

[SWSydneytutor]

Hmmm, well, I don't know about that but some people at my brother's banking firm earn pretty huge sums. My brother is a USYD law graduate who now works for Morgan Stanley... he has no problems saying that he loves the money. As schroed said, the money's really in finance and business nowadays - my brother is now earning 90K before bonus in his second year out of university. It's pretty insane actuallly; it's come to the point where when we go shopping I have to STOP him from buying me too much clothes.

 

[Bacilli]

Hmz. Parents don't always know what's best son, you choose your own direction otherwise you'll despise them for the rest of your life.

Listen, the majority are asians, don't be an ignorant fag. I am not racist but I'm not going to generalise. I know what I'm talking about, believe me.

 

[blue_chameleon]

Parents know whats best for you, start using your biological imperative and realize some fundamental respect

Of course they do, champ.

There are never cases of pride getting in the way. Neva eva!

 

[RogueAcademic]

If you don't have any evidence to back up your claims, then don't speak as if they're fact. I'm perfectly fine if you state that that's your opinion, however.

Well, if you don’t have any evidence to back up your claims, then don’t speak as if they’re fact. I’m perfectly fine if you state that that’s your opinion, however.

Many interns work many hours without pay. Many doctors do not have enough time for their own lives. I have seen many doctors work obscene hours, many without pay. If teachers are allowed to protest their meagre salaries, then so should doctors. I have talked to residents and interns at hospitals who absolutely struggle to have any time at all for their families.

That is a testament to the system that the medical profession has set up for themselves in the form of arrogance and hard-nosed adherence to questionable tradition.

Supervising surgeon: “I was made to work 36 hour shifts when I was an intern, why should any of these new interns get away with better working conditions when I had to work like hell?”. ​

it was not hypocritical to discuss altruism and smaller salary packages in the same sentence. People should be allowed to care for others but at the same time, pause and say that their efforts aren't being adequately rewarded.

We’re not simply talking about altruism & smaller salary packages. We’re talking about the hypocritical claim that the medical profession is altruistic when claiming that the medical graduate salary is allegedly ‘not very much’.

But no, apparently doctors should work solely for altruism. OK.
I'm rather disillusioned with how everybody expects doctors to be simply in it for the sake altruism, helping people etc., and how they're apparently not meant ot have any consideration for financial matters at all.

Nope, I never said altruism = no pay, live under the poverty line, in a cave, on bread and water. That would be ridiculous. It’s just as ridiculous to claim that being a doctor = altruism.

The role of the doctor and the lawyer is different.

While we’re generalising, there are human rights lawyers / community lawyers / pro bono lawyers who make far, far less money than a doctor. You criticise people making generalisations in the medical profession, but you are doing the same thing for the legal profession.

The role of the doctor in society is to care for others, so of course you'd have more cases of people having some pretty good intentions. Whether they're fake or not is not for you to judge.

It’s more accurate to say that it is the nursing profession that cares for others, often for far less money, prestige, and working conditions than the doctor. There are far more in the nursing profession who can lay claim to having genuine good intentions.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Why would anyone do medicinde if there wasnt a high salary?

Good question. Take salary out of the equation and the only people left doing medicine would be the ones doing it for the prestige, the apparent high regard afforded to their 'Dr' status by society. Take prestige away, and a vast majority of them wouldn't even be there.

If there really was an altruistic basis, the same students applying for medicine would also be applying for nursing. The vast majority of med students wouldn't be caught dead in the nursing profession if they hadn't made it into medicine.

 

[iSplicer]

Why would anyone do medicinde if there wasnt a high salary?

"To help people" quoteunquote

 

[iSplicer]

I'll tell you what's worse than choosing medicine for money, your parents forcing you to do it. "I want the best for daughter, Ching Wah" really pisses me off.

Do your parents pressure you to do long term things that you don't want to do? Not like mowing the lawn, but for example doing the HSC at a particular school? Fuck I hate those soccer mums who're grotesque in apparence mainly due to the fact that they indulge in chocolate coated peanuts and 346 latino coffees whateva the fk they are. Wheneva I attend the mbbs open days it appears the asian mthr n fthr drag the child to the course sections, which when completed, offer good money. What we end is a health system where these arsehole Drs, because of their arsehole parents, don't give a flying fk about the patients. Nepean Hospital is an example of dreadful staff who deserve the death penalty. Go to nepean hospital complaining of chest pain, you will wait 13 hours only to be seen by a fkn maggot doc who can't speak nor understand English properly. So you leave angry, see your physician the next day and say, I had chest pain but I didn't stay at the hospital because the doc blames drinking too much water for an irregular heart beat, and the nurses don't speak to people with respect. What the do u want me to do? Go back? Fk u

/rant

The health system is dying but don't worry kids, bacilli will save it.

You seem like a sharp person, but the reasons that most asians are doctors aren't because their parents push them (that is partly the reason) but because asians achieve far better results than any other ethnic groups, period. I am Indian, we don't achieve as well as chinese and vietnamese, but we are up there. We are the ones dominating the top selective schools. You may well react and say "we have no lives" or "we don't know english well" or "we dont have a social life". Get a load of this: The top guy in my school, who has been invited to many international mathematics competitions, etc, is an awesome, talktative guy with a girlfriend. He speaks perfect english and writes eloquent essays. No single asian in my school or James Ruse, as my sources say are poor speakers of english, they probably beat most whites at their own language.

The future is in our hands.

 

[SWSydneytutor]

That is a testament to the system that the medical profession has set up for themselves in the form of arrogance and hard-nosed adherence to questionable tradition.

Supervising surgeon: “I was made to work 36 hour shifts when I was an intern, why should any of these new interns get away with better working conditions when I had to work like hell?”. ​

​

Well you can't possibly blame current medical students for being subject to horrible conditions, can you? The simple fact of the matter is that working obscene hours in poor working conditions and poor hours should entitle doctors to adequate monetary reward. I never said that being a doctor involved pure 100% altruism but like everyone else, we like to see our efforts rewarded.

We’re not simply talking about altruism & smaller salary packages. We’re talking about the hypocritical claim that the medical profession is altruistic when claiming that the medical graduate salary is allegedly ‘not very much’.

Of course, when you go about placing those two elements in one statement, it does sound hypocritical. However once again I would urge you to consider that most doctors work poor hours with poor conditions, it becomes more understandable. Also note that I did say that it was "quite" an altruistic career choice - I did not say that doctor=altruism as you seem to imply later in your post. I am in full agreeance: doctor does not equal altruism, doctor only equals part altruism.

Nope, I never said altruism = no pay, live under the poverty line, in a cave, on bread and water. That would be ridiculous. It’s just as ridiculous to claim that being a doctor = altruism.

Why are we arguing then? We seem to agree as much.

While we’re generalising, there are human rights lawyers / community lawyers / pro bono lawyers who make far, far less money than a doctor. You criticise people making generalisations in the medical profession, but you are doing the same thing for the legal profession.

I am not generalising at all. The role of the doctor and a lawyer is different; do doctors care for people on a legal basis? And vice versa, do lawyers care for people on a medical basis? Whilst most doctors will either go into treating patients or research, not all lawyers will be out there as international human rights lawyers, so I don't feel as if I'm generalising if I suggest that you'd find more people with "I want to help you" stories in the medical profession. It's not necessarily a knock against law; the nature of both professions are different, with one lending themselves more to the altruistic side of things when we consider the numbers.

It’s more accurate to say that it is the nursing profession that cares for others, often for far less money, prestige, and working conditions than the doctor. There are far more in the nursing profession who can lay claim to having genuine good intentions.

I will agree, to an extent, with you on this; you'll generally find nurses who have more pure intentions than doctors. However again the nature of these professions are different. Some people want to be the ones behind diagnosis and things like this... but just because nurses probably have more claim to having "good intentions" does not remove the fact that many who are studying to be doctors have the same genuine intentions.

Anyway, thank you for this genuine discussion because while I disagree with some of your points (and hey I can tell we're both kind of bored) I agree with others. By the way, my second option was to go into teaching high school history and English. So it really does incense me when failed med hopefuls do not wish to "waste" their UAIs and go into law. Or when I hear people saying that they want to make money from it all and send their kids to GSP schools.

 

[leekiss]

Why do people always end up choosing law if they didn't make it into medicine (this is based on a few people at my school). The genuine ones who were interested in the medical field and hospitals etc ended up choosing an allied health course.

 

[RogueAcademic]

[/indent]Well you can't possibly blame current medical students for being subject to horrible conditions, can you?

There is no sympathy because these same students will go ahead and do the same thing to future students, as history has shown.

The simple fact of the matter is that working obscene hours in poor working conditions and poor hours should entitle doctors to adequate monetary reward. I never said that being a doctor involved pure 100% altruism but like everyone else, we like to see our efforts rewarded.

When compared to other areas particularly the nursing profession, medical graduates are already well-rewarded, and to hear criticism about the salary being ‘not very much’, that’s just plain hypocritical and arrogant talk.

doctor does not equal altruism, doctor only equals part altruism.

There are many doctors out there who have zero altruism, much less part-altruism. It’s all about prestige, money, self-serving status amongst his/her own peers.

just because nurses probably have more claim to having "good intentions" does not remove the fact that many who are studying to be doctors have the same genuine intentions.

Sure, there are some medical students who have good intentions, but there are far more who are more concerned about money and prestige. Whereas in the nursing profession, I have never, ever, met a nurse or a nursing student who is in it for the 'money' or prestige. Not once.

So it really does incense me when failed med hopefuls do not wish to "waste" their UAIs and go into law.

That’s exactly the point, they weren’t in it for altruism in the first place. And I bet that many of the ’failed med hopefuls’ who go into law, don’t go into the more ‘altruistic’ human rights/community law areas either. I bet they go into the more ‘honest’ financially-driven area of commercial law with a private law firm.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Why do people always end up choosing law if they didn't make it into medicine (this is based on a few people at my school). The genuine ones who were interested in the medical field and hospitals etc ended up choosing an allied health course.

Exactly. It really suggests they're in it for perceived prestige/money. I would go even further and say that if they're really genuine about their intentions, they'd also apply for a nursing course if they don't get into medicine. I have never met a med student list 'nursing' as a backup career if they hadn't gotten into medicine. Nor have I ever met a med student-hopeful who is more than happy to get into nursing as an alternative career.

 

[SWSydneytutor]

My apologies for being arrogant - I didn't mean to, and I agree, nurses are entitled to better pay and better conditions also.

 

[blue_chameleon]

You seem like a sharp person, but the reasons that most asians are doctors aren't because their parents push them (that is partly the reason) but because asians achieve far better results than any other ethnic groups, period. I am Indian, we don't achieve as well as chinese and vietnamese, but we are up there. We are the ones dominating the top selective schools. You may well react and say "we have no lives" or "we don't know english well" or "we dont have a social life". Get a load of this: The top guy in my school, who has been invited to many international mathematics competitions, etc, is an awesome, talktative guy with a girlfriend. He speaks perfect english and writes eloquent essays. No single asian in my school or James Ruse, as my sources say are poor speakers of english, they probably beat most whites at their own language.

The future is in our hands.

What do you want to do when you finish High School?

 

[Cookie182]

On the topic of $$$/prestige, why would one enter Monash's combined LLB/MBBS. I'm aware you do your first year of Med first, but why pickup a completely different profession in the second year...? I guess some would argue they want to be a medical negligence barrister?? Other then that, I doubt it's for 'altruistic' reasons...

IMO it is the thought of running into a girl in the bar, hoping for that question-

"So...wat do you do?"

"I'm a doctor..."

"OMG wow..."

"And a lawyer, honey..."

"OMFG...Lets Fuck"

 

[Cookie182]

What do you want to do when you finish High School?

I'd take a wild swing and say that isplicer is up for the LLB/MBBS

 

[KFunk]

Well, if you don’t have any evidence to back up your claims, then don’t speak as if they’re fact. I’m perfectly fine if you state that that’s your opinion, however.

If data is what is important consider the following (noting that surveys have issues of validity, but they are likely to be a better gauge of things than our personal anecdotes).

Crossley & Mubarick (2002) - A comparative investigation of dental and medical student's motivation towards career choice

Results: ... dental students were significantly more likely to be motivated by factors relating to status and security and the nature of their occupation (eg regular working hours, self employment and independence). By contrast, medical students were significantly more likely to be motivated by factors relating to career opportunities, patient care and working with people, use of personal skills, and interest in science. Work experience was a strong motivating factor in the case of both dental and medical students (though especially for dental students).

Discussion (excerpt):

"Likewise, the high importance of 'person oriented motives' and the desire to 'care for and help others' amongst medical students, is consistent with surveys in other countries2, 8 which have consistently reported altruism as a prime motivation of medical students. By contrast, considerations of status and prestige were of comparatively low importance. Unlike the Vaglum et al. study,2 however, in this study female students did not score higher than men on 'person oriented' factors, nor were there significant gender differences on any of the motivational items covered in the questionnaire.

Other surveys have also shown the 'scientific nature and intellectual challenge of medicine' to be an important motivation for medical students.2, 8 This is revealed in the comparative percentages of medical/ dental students agreeing to items such as 'challenging career' (60% medical students versus 24% dental students), 'opportunity to use mental skills' (48% medical students versus 16% dental students) and 'general interest in science' (85% medical students versus 14% dental students)."


AMWAC (2004) - Career decision making by postgraduate doctors

Factors influencing choice of specialty

• In total, 78.1% of recent entrant respondents rated ‘appraisal of own skills and aptitudes’ as influential in their choice of specialty followed by ‘Interest in helping people’ (73.4% and ‘Intellectual content of the specialty’ (73.3%). These three intrinsic factors were similarly rated by respondents in 2002.

• The most influential extrinsic determinants of choice of specialty among recent entrant respondents in 2004 were the work culture typical of the specialty, opportunity to work flexible hours, hours of work typical of the specialty, work experience since graduation, the kinds of patients typical of the specialty, opportunity for procedural work and influence of consultant/mentors. These factors were also ranked among the top seven by doctors in vocational training in 2002.

• In 2004 and 2002, women rated hours of work typical of the discipline, opportunity to work flexible hours, and appraisal of own domestic circumstances, more highly than men, while men rated opportunity for procedural work, perceived prestige of the discipline, and perceived financial and career advancement prospects more highly than women.