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Libertarian movement (3 Viewers)

jennyfromdabloc

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Lol, how pathetic, you link a sad little book by some drop-out tabloid journalist crank (and juxtaposed to Joseph Stiglitz..please..).
Judge ideas on their merit, not on the status of who wrote them.

^Because a third party can implement Pareto improvements...
Your "explanations" are always so vague and brief.

Can you actually respond to the initial post by volition that started this argument in your own words?
 
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Omar-Comin

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Judge ideas on their merit, not on the status of who wrote them.



Your "explanations" are always so vague and brief.

Can you actually respond to the initial post by volition in your own words?
You don't get it do you...Stiglitz provides a formal proof in the link I posted.

That's what you have to do in economics, actually read the whole argument, mumbling 'government taking our jobs and liberties' gets us nowhere. I disregard the junk you mises.org cranks shout precisely because you don't provide any coherent and rigorous models, just empty, ideologically capricious slogans.
 

jennyfromdabloc

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You don't get it do you...Stiglitz provides a formal proof in the link I posted.

That's what you have to do in economics, actually read the whole argument, mumbling 'government taking our jobs and liberties' gets us nowhere. I disregard the junk you mises.org cranks shout precisely because you don't provide any coherent and rigorous models, just empty, ideologically capricious slogans.
Much of the work on mises.org contains formal proofs.

Formal proofs are just a structure, using that structure does not make something right, or actually proven to be true.

Once again, can you explain your position in your own words?
 

Omar-Comin

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Much of the work on mises.org contains formal proofs.

Formal proofs are just a structure, it does not make them right, or actually proven to be true.

Once again, can you explain your position in your own words?
Whoa, your slow.

I mean the formal proof would take up many pages, and all I would be doing is writing the same stuff already written in that book.
Just read it..it does take that long.
 

dieburndie

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Inequality leads to a (constrained) Pareto inefficient outcome in the presents of asymmetric information. (primarily due to a principle agent problem)

Begin on Page 47
You clearly don't understand the link you have provided. That oversimplified summary lacking any detail or explanation as to how exactly the material provided is relevant to the discussion at hand shows your inability to articulate what I can only assume is a half baked, poorly constructed argument against libertarianism.

I mean, you used the word "presents" in place of "presence". You are way out of your depth.
 

moll.

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What I can't understand about libertarianism/anarchism is the legal side. Who will police this world (assuming crime is still punishable and that you're not under some idiotic misapprehension that it will cease)? And, in turn, who will police the police and stop them abusing their powers? And who will police those people, ad infinitum?

This is why a democratic central authority works. The Police police the citizens, the government polices the Police, the citizens police the government. Neat and tidy circle! No sharp edges for people to get brutally stabbed sixteen times on.
 

Omar-Comin

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You clearly don't understand the link you have provided. That oversimplified summary lacking any detail or explanation as to how exactly the material provided is relevant to the discussion at hand shows your inability to articulate what I can only assume is a half baked, poorly constructed argument against libertarianism.
Volition asked ''how it is supposedly a good thing to regulate the distribution of wealth. Why do you think this and to what extent do you mean?''
If, although I doubt you can, comprehend the text in question, you'd make the connection.
Now please refrain from articulating your inferiorty complex. Stick to hollering 'end the fed' like a good servile nut-job, people with an intellect find your type nauseating.
 

vikraman

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What I can't understand about libertarianism/anarchism is the legal side. Who will police this world (assuming crime is still punishable and that you're not under some idiotic misapprehension that it will cease)? And, in turn, who will police the police and stop them abusing their powers? And who will police those people, ad infinitum?

This is why a democratic central authority works. The Police police the citizens, the government polices the Police, the citizens police the government. Neat and tidy circle! No sharp edges for people to get brutally stabbed sixteen times on.
oh man, is this your first time arguing with libertarians? The Answer according to Libertarian code is Private Security firms which are then bound by contracts and contract/tort law. The courts themselves are private and hire private firms to subpoena their prospective "clients". (Though how bankruptcy would work in libertariantopia still baffles me. Slavery is probably their solution o.o) The security firms themselves are controlled by market forces (the better they stick to the rules, the more customers they get etc.)

Next.

(None of this means I am Libertarian though, I've just argued against 12312414981239812 of them hence predicting their future answers. I believe in a benign dictatorship, with me being the dictator of course.)
 

BlackDragon

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What I can't understand about libertarianism/anarchism is the legal side. Who will police this world (assuming crime is still punishable and that you're not under some idiotic misapprehension that it will cease)? And, in turn, who will police the police and stop them abusing their powers? And who will police those people, ad infinitum?

This is why a democratic central authority works. The Police police the citizens, the government polices the Police, the citizens police the government. Neat and tidy circle! No sharp edges for people to get brutally stabbed sixteen times on.
Separation of powers.. Legislative, Judiciary and and Executive... and then the citizens. But yeah I agree, the mistake in extreme libertarianism is the assumption that removing a legitimised form of coercion (the government) will make anyone more free. There will be many many more bodies that coerce people under anarchism, its just that we don't know what these will be. People who hold to anarchism have the naive view that with the removal of laws we will be anymore free. There will be no legitimised way to maintain a social contract between people and people's basic liberties will be trampled upon whenever the opportunity arises. And no form of private security will stop this, people are opportunistic the way it is.
And the ironic thing is that if libertarians would put forward some form of private securty arrangement as a way of stopping violence between people they are mimicing what the government does between people but in a way that is much less attractive. It ultimately just degrades into who has the biggest gun.
 
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kelly tully

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something about paying homeless people to fight to the death or something, idk
 

Graney

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This is why a democratic central authority works. The Police police the citizens, the government polices the Police, the citizens police the government. Neat and tidy circle! No sharp edges for people to get brutally stabbed sixteen times on.
Because the police in a democratic system have always been uncorrupt and entirely accountable for their actions. Governments have never given police direct powers to interfere with democracy and protest, and even to directly commit overt violence against the people they are supposed to represent.

It is a bit frightening what direct, public control of the police force could mean. But probably less frightening than concentrating that power in a smaller group of elected individuals.
 

dieburndie

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Volition asked ''how it is supposedly a good thing to regulate the distribution of wealth. Why do you think this and to what extent do you mean?''
If, although I doubt you can, comprehend the text in question, you'd make the connection.
Now please refrain from articulating your inferiorty complex. Stick to hollering 'end the fed' like a good servile nut-job, people with an intellect find your type nauseating.
Hahahahahahaha

I post smart link. I take words from link. I am intellectual.
Nice try, I love it when you smug, autofellating third wayers constantly talk down to others while stumbling over your vague Keynesian half-arguments.
 

dieburndie

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There will be many many more bodies that coerce people under anarchism, its just that we don't know what these will be.
If you can't identify these coercive bodies, how can you substantiate your claim that they will come to exist at all?
 

BlackDragon

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If you can't identify these coercive bodies, how can you substantiate your claim that they will come to exist at all?
No lol, that's the point. It will just be people grouping together to protect themselves from other people. Which will fundamentally reduce peoples' freedoms rather than improving them. It will be groups of people that coerce each other and be unlegitimated authorities, which is scary, and potentially very dangerous. It really bad to be the minority under a who has the biggest gun situation.
 
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dieburndie

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No lol, that's the point. It will just be people grouping together to protect themselves from other people. Which will fundamentally reduce peoples' freedoms rather than improving them.
How exactly will people protecting themselves from other people reduce freedoms, and to such a great extent that there would be less individual freedom overall than there is when people are controlled by the ever-expanding government of a nation state?
 

Omar-Comin

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Nice try, I love it when you smug, autofellating third wayers constantly talk down to others while stumbling over your vague Keynesian half-arguments.
And there we have it ladies and gentlemen, the hallmark of a functionally illiterate 4th generation farm-hand;

i.e. Using the term 'Keynesian' as an adjective for all models who conclusions conflict with the redneck consensus
 

BlackDragon

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How exactly will people protecting themselves from other people reduce freedoms, and to such a great extent that there would be less individual freedom overall than there is when people are controlled by the ever-expanding government of a nation state?
Because people won't be restricted on what they want to do. If a powerful group of people wants everything you have and you can't stop them, then they will take everything you have. Unless you are more powerful than someone you will have no ability to protect yourself. If you are equally as powerful as someone then there will be this tense stand-off situation. And ALL the time people will be completely opportunistic in taking whatever they can. On top of this, giant powerful groups who dominate everyone will build up anyway. Its a bad situation.

I'm just saying that a government which has separated powers is a much more desirable mechanism to protect freedoms than a state of nature. There is no perfect system, of course, but we have to take the better option. I mean, you can't really say you would rather a state of nature to the way australia is now. Its so naive if you do.
 
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Graney

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No lol, that's the point. It will just be people grouping together to protect themselves from other people. Which will fundamentally reduce peoples' freedoms rather than improving them. It will be groups of people that coerce each other and be unlegitimated authorities, which is scary, and potentially very dangerous. It really bad to be the minority under a who has the biggest gun situation.
I will leave a deeper critique to dieburndie, but you should note that many victimless crimes, such as drug offences (for which millions of people are imprisoned in the USA alone), would be uneconomical to prosecute in an anarcho-capitalist system, so in this sense, individuals are undeniably granted more freedom.

It'll free individuals to practice any business, in any manner they choose, free of the prohibitive burdens of taxation, tariffs, protectionism, bureaucracy, industrial relations etc... that stifle innovation, productivity, and the ability to provide employment for millions.
 

BlackDragon

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I will leave a deeper critique to dieburndie, but you should note that many victimless crimes, such as drug offences (for which millions of people are imprisoned in the USA alone), would be uneconomical to prosecute in an anarcho-capitalist system, so in this sense, individuals are undeniably granted more freedom.

It'll free individuals to practice any business, in any manner they choose, free of the prohibitive burdens of taxation, tariffs, protectionism, bureaucracy, industrial relations etc... that stifle innovation, productivity, and the ability to provide employment for millions.
I agree in a more minimalist government. People often confuse governments with leftist governments that want to control more than is desirable. I'm just saying that a government is a more desirable mechanism to protect freedoms than a state of nature and that a belief that anarchism will make people freer is naive. But yeah, in terms of one's complete freedom to self determination in the private domain, I agree with this. Governments shouldn't really be controlling what people put in their bodies either, i.e. with marajuana and stuff. And I further agree, protectionism is generally bad as is any overly intrusive policy to a certain extent. Nonetheless, I think a mixture of both leftist and rightist policies is best, but more than that, a government mechanism of some kind is more desirable than anarachism.
 

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