Aganist abortion (2 Viewers)

[Rothbard]

Just because you view a foetus as a child doesn't make it right.

I could view a wolf as a magician, but people would think I'm nuts

 

[mes ami]

holy shit i just read his reply. this guy is an absolute moron.

 

[DVDVDVDV]

Just because you view a foetus as a child doesn't make it right.

I could view a wolf as a magician, but people would think I'm nuts

Yes, but I could say the same in reply. Just because you view a foetus as not a child doesn't make it right. That train of thought purely comes down to drawing a line at when a child becomes a child; a train of thought on which debate would be incredibly limited.

@Mes ami: feel free to outline your problems. I think the main source of error however is just different wavelengths. I know why I think most of these things, except I base them on something you don't view as fact. To try and convince you, I have to base my logic on your viewpoints, something which I know little about and have difficulty basing debation on as I don't agree with these viewpoints.

 

[DVDVDVDV]

Just because you view a foetus as a child doesn't make it right.

I could view a wolf as a magician, but people would think I'm nuts

Yes, but I could say the same in reply. Just because you view a foetus as not a child doesn't make it right. That train of thought purely comes down to drawing a line at when a child becomes a child; a train of thought on which debate would be incredibly limited.

@Mes ami: feel free to outline your problems. I think the main source of error however is just different wavelengths. I know why I think most of these things, except I base them on something you don't view as fact. To try and convince you, I have to base my logic on your viewpoints, something which I know little about and have difficulty basing debation on as I don't agree with these viewpoints.

 

[Rothbard]

We've got a pretty fucking sweet deliniation for when a foetus isn't a child

when it no longer needs to feed off the host

 

[Rothbard]

We've got a pretty fucking sweet deliniation for when a foetus isn't a child

when it no longer needs to feed off the host

 

[mes ami]

People like him shit me. If he cares so much about "human life" why doesn't he spend more time and energy helping those that are already alive and are in need? A fetus isn't guaranteed life, it could be still born or miscarried. Care for life that already exists as it surely has greater "intrinsic value" than that of a fetus. We already have in Australia, let alone the world, a large number of orphans. Christianity teaches you to help others and to be moral. Surely you should help those in need first before unborn life that may survive pregnancy.

Also, why do you people argue that we are destroying potential of a fetus? Surely those in third world countries, those riddled by poverty and those riddled with abuse are having their potentials dampened more so.

We already have a large enough population to provide individuals whose work/s benefits humanity. Look at our multitude of scientific discovery and technological advancements. By aborting fetuses we are in no way impeding our progression as a species. Rather so, we are in some sense contributing to natural selection. Sure we have older people with undesirable genes procreating with the use of scientific advancements. Yes this entails an increase of bad genes in our gene pool. However, by allowing abortion we do counter this issue to a degree. Many people with undesirable genes abort fetuses. Many women with hereditary diseases do so. Those dependent on drugs do so and it is for the greater good. They could produce children with birth defects, poor genes, diseases etc.

Furthermore, by banning abortion you will only provide an increase in illegal methods to abort fetuses with very negative effects on the mother. Aside from emotional and psychological consequences there is the possibility for serious physical harm on the woman and the possibility of death. A woman's quality of life should not be lessened because she got impregnated. If you ban abortions not only will you have an increase in teen mothers but you will also have an increase in broken families that will have serious psychological effects on the nations youth. The man who impregnated the woman will not necessarily stand by her side. There is a plethora of evidence in the public domain that highlights an increase of criminal behaviour and drug dependency among single parent youths, struggling or not and youths with rocky relations between their parents. If you are unable to provide for the child or are not ready for the child you should have the choice to abort it. Lets not forget struggling single mothers/parents and economic strain it entails or the strain on orphanages and child protection services. You all forget how the quality of life for both child and mother can greatly be affected by your actions.

Procreation is survival of the species. The choice on whether one can abort of keep the child is not up to the species. It is an individual right.

This. By banning abortion you are infringing upon personal freedom and human rights. You talk about the potential of the embryo if it were born. Have you perhaps considered the potential for those already living outside of the womb in poor conditions? Surely their potential is being dampened more so than a possible child. Furthermore, we are so far advanced and we have such a high enough population that we no longer need to worry about keeping our population up like we would have in earlier times (survival). Surely we are advanced enough to have the right to choose whether or not we want to keep a possible child?

Furthermore by forcing women to keep their babies you are showing that you are no better than those that interrupt and practice Islam extremely. You are controlling and cornering people into a path they do not want to take. You talk about how the child still has the chance to better its life when I talk about those with the highest abortion rates. You are completely missing the point. It is the parents choice on whether or not they want to keep the embryo. Those with such circumstances mentioned generally tend to abort their babies until they are more mature or financially stable. It is the parents choice if they want to bring a child into that world. Also, I like how you consider the potential of every embryo like it has a right to survive. By your logic people should not have sex unless they are trying to conceive for every sperm is sacred and every sperm carries a baby blue print. Also, by your logic you should invent some sort of medicine that prevents women from having their periods because loosing an egg during a period is losing a possible life; a baby blue print.


You merely work on possibility. Sure this embryo could do great things. I've already pointed out that we have a high enough population that abortions do not hinder our progression as a species. With your logic we could have the next Hitler born. It is a redundant argument. We have a high enough population as it is. Women won the right to vote not that long ago and have made great steps towards equality. By banning abortion you are taking this away from them. You are limiting their freedom. It is absolutely disgusting. We lose thousands of eggs and sperm in our life time. It is no different when you abort a embryo. It does not experience any of the human experience until it is born when it begins to feel and learn. It merely is life beginning to form in the womb. Your belief system is built upon a religious framework and it is unacceptable. Religious beliefs of an individual should not in anyway have authority over the belief systems of others.

 

[abbeyroad]

Yes, but I could say the same in reply. Just because you view a foetus as not a child doesn't make it right. That train of thought purely comes down to drawing a line at when a child becomes a child; a train of thought on which debate would be incredibly limited.

@Mes ami: feel free to outline your problems. I think the main source of error however is just different wavelengths. I know why I think most of these things, except I base them on something you don't view as fact. To try and convince you, I have to base my logic on your viewpoints, something which I know little about and have difficulty basing debation on as I don't agree with these viewpoints.

the thing is, while your views are based on the supposed teachings of an invisible magical man in the sky, his views are based on something called ~science~? you might wanna look into that. but hey let's not let science get in the way of a cool story bro.

 

[ix3powerrangers]

okay there is both religious and scientific reasons against abortion (i think the two go hand in hand but that's another story)

Religious reasons

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. (Psalm 139)

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5)

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1: 41)

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee (Jeremiah 1:5)

The above bible quotes prove why abortion is wrong, and the above come from the old and new testaments meaning that both Christian and Judaism both value these words.

Scientific Reasons (You want Scientifc Reasons I give you Scientifc Reasons)
"Zygote: this cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). Human development begins at fertilization… This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." (The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology)

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed…" (Human Embryology & Teratology, Second Edition)

"By all criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Dr. Hymie Gordon (Mayo Clinic)

"after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being." Dr. Jerome LeJeune (University of Descartes)

"It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception" Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth (Harvard University Medical School):

Now what in order to tackle when an embryo/feotus/baby becomes human lets see what goes on while its in the mothers womb

• Fetal heart begins to form 18 days after conception
• Measurable heart beat 21-24 days after conception
• Fetal brain begins to form on day 25
• Brain waves produced by 6 weeks

So when are abortions occuring?
22% of abortions occur before 6 weeks
18% on the 7th week
18% on the 8th week
and 42% after the 8th week
meaning 78% occur after the brain waves has been produced

The Experience of Doctors who Abort and Mothers who have Aborted
I watched as the contents of the woman’s womb came through a suctioning device and into a stainless-steel pail sitting at his feet. I stepped back and wiped the perspiration from my brow. "This is kind of gruesome," I said…. The doctor said, “At this point in a pregnancy, the products of conception aren’t much.” I stepped forward and peered into the pail. This time I broke out in a cold sweat. I backed up and leaned against the wall, my eyes closed. Dear Jesus! I thought. I just saw someone murdered! And I just stood and watched! (Nurse Don Haines, in training)

I had a quick sonogram and then received a shot of methrotrexate. After the shot, I came home... I went to bed that evening around 9 p.m… I continued contracting and bleeding most of the night. Around three in the morning, I went to the bathroom. When I stood up, I noticed that the pain and the pressure was not from clots, but from passing the placenta. When I looked in the commode, I saw laying in the center of the placenta my baby. I saw the baby's perfectly formed hands, the little fingers. I remember the scream that came from my mouth... [from a 7 week abortion] (Char, "I used to be Pro-choice...But…")

"I opened the sock up and I put it on the towel and there were parts in there of a person. I’d taken anatomy; I was a medical student. I knew what I was looking at. There was a little scapula and there was an arm, and I saw some ribs and a chest, and I saw a little tiny head, and I saw a piece of a leg, and I saw a tiny hand. ... I checked it out and there were two arms and two legs and one head, etc., and I turned and said, I guess you got it all ... It was pretty awful that first time... it was like somebody put a hot poker into me." (Dr. David Brewer, in training)

Scientifc Conclusions

• Human life begins at conception
• Human development proceeds rapidly (all organs and systems are in place by week 8)
• Abortion stops a beating heart
• Most abortions occur after the fetus exhibits measurable brain waves

Legal Reasons

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE
SECTION 187-199

187.

a.Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

source: CAL. PEN. CODE § 187 : California Code - Section 187

What if we compare abortion (2003) to slavery(1850's)?
Abortion - "They're not persons"
Slavery - "They're not persons but property"

Abortion - "It's a personal choice"
Slavery - "It's a personal choice"

Abortion - "It's a religious issue
Slavery - It's a religious issue

source: Abortion Vs. Slavery

Just think about it.

 

[scarybunny]

So you're against the morning after pill?

 

[ix3powerrangers]

yeah pretty much, most of the evidence i have listed above proves that life is present AT CONCEPTION, the morning after pill comes after conception and eliminates the baby already conceived in the womb, it POISONS it.
Actually i'm a Catholic and i'm against contraception and sex before marriage.
There is sooooo much quotes in the bible against these and i don't know why other christians don't appreciate and see it. i can find so much more quotes against abortion, contraception and sex before mariage.
there is also more scientific, legal, moral, ethical and reasons based on experience against these aswell and sometimes i wander why even athiests, agnostics or other religions don't see it either.

 

[scarybunny]

I think everyone already assumed that you're Catholic.

You can't use the laws of another country as a reason that abortion is wrong. It's not illegal in Australia because women, not the state, should be allowed to decide what is best for them.

If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. Good for you. But don't you dare try to force women to have a child against their will.

 

[Graney]

yeah pretty much, most of the evidence i have listed above proves that life is present AT CONCEPTION

Life is present prior to conception. The sperm and egg are living cells.

They fuse into a zygote, a single cell capable of dividing by mitosis. A zygote is basically just a cell membrane carrying a package of coded information for the direction of it's own replication. All a zygote is, is information for it's own replication, there is nothing more to it. It has less complexity and moral significance than a tapeworm.

 

[harrisony]

yeah pretty much, most of the evidence i have listed above proves that life is present AT CONCEPTION, the morning after pill comes after conception and eliminates the baby already conceived in the womb, it POISONS it.
Actually i'm a Catholic and i'm against contraception and sex before marriage.
There is sooooo much quotes in the bible against these and i don't know why other christians don't appreciate and see it. i can find so much more quotes against abortion, contraception and sex before mariage.
there is also more scientific, legal, moral, ethical and reasons based on experience against these aswell and sometimes i wander why even athiests, agnostics or other religions don't see it either.

Your profile says your a female so I'm assuming that's correct and that your graduating in 2011 making you somewhere around 15-17.

In the worst case scenario you are a victim of rape and was forced to have unprotected sex. You fall pregnant. You don't want this child, you don't know who the father is and heck you have your hsc to worry about.

You know about this early so you have other options beside abortion but wait your against the morning after pill. What would you do?

(and on reading your post again are you against all forms contraception? making you against safe sex?)

 

[Rothbard]

Hhahahahahahaha fuck Catholics are the worst

thankfully the abortion issue is done with

 

[Rothbard]

You are never going to make abortion illegal, never.

Keep your fucking sky-fairy bullshit to yourself.

Foetus doesn't feel pain till 24 weeks. Cherry picking quotes of whining women doesn't mean shit, I'll find the list of quotes I have on doctors talking about how important abortion access is.

 

[Rothbard]

You are never going to make abortion illegal, never.

Keep your fucking sky-fairy bullshit to yourself.

Foetus doesn't feel pain till 24 weeks. Cherry picking quotes of whining women doesn't mean shit, I'll find the list of quotes I have on doctors talking about how important abortion access is.

 

[Rothbard]

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

"We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado)

"In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State)

"The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

"I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York)

"I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands)

"My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

"A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

"I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)

"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)


An administrator at a Missouri clinic recalled a woman blurting out in the recovery room, "It should be illegal." The other women's mouths fell open, said the administrator. "They couldn't believe it."

The medical director of an Indianapolis clinic recalled one prospective patient who phoned to ask whether the clinic had a back door. He said no. How, she asked, could she get inside without being seen by fellow picketers outside? Pointing out that two orthopedists practiced with him, the doctor told the woman "she could limp and say she was coming to see the orthopods."

The medical director at a Dallas abortion clinic told this story: A white woman from an affluent north Dallas neighborhood brought her black maid in for an abortion and paid for it. While the maid was in a counseling session, a commotion was heard in the waiting room outside. The maid's employer was handing out anti-abortion leaflets to other women waiting for abortions.

From a clinic director in a mid-western state: "One of the most remarkable cases was a woman who came [from another part of the state] and said she was the Right-to-Life president in her county. 'But,' she said, she 'had become pregnant and had to have an abortion.'"

From a counselor in Virginia: "[The patient] was disturbed and upset and insisted she couldn't carry the pregnancy to term. She opposed abortion -- and in fact had picketed this very clinic -- [but] felt the abortion was something she had to do."


"Early in my career, I thought I was obligated to provide an abortion for every woman who arrived at my doorstep requesting an abortion. My experience in general medicine, surgery, and abortion has led me to believe differently. Not inadvertently, women give either me or my staff an uneasy feeling about their ambivalence or their anxiety about the abortion process. Since I have never been sued for an abortion I did not perform, my policy is to acknowledge my gut feeling, which is more often right than wrong."

"I have long felt that anti-abortionism is a psychological contraindication to the abortion procedure. And that we don't have to give everyone who asks an abortion. An anti-abortion woman is likely to be uncooperative and will probably not follow post-op instructions or instructions on how to deal with complications. There is actually a case where an anti-abortion patient failed to go as directed to Emergency for an unrelated complication. She ended up dying, and her family sued the physician and badgered him publicly. Additionally, if you have a complication that day, it will be the anti-abortionist. I'm not talking about the patient who says, 'I was against abortion until it happened to me', or 'I'm really against abortion, but I have to do this'. I'm talking about the picketer, the activist, the totally anti-creature who will come back to haunt us."


"When a patient comes in with my 'favorite' sentiment: 'The only moral abortion is my abortion,' I try to expand her understanding that a few more of us have had and deserve a 'moral' abortion. When a woman expands her need for care beyond herself, you no longer have an 'anti'." (Clinic Administrator, Louisiana)

"Sometimes I say to patients who have that 'I have no choice, I know I'll regret it, just do me' attitude: 'You may not care, but we do. We only do abortions on women who want our services. We will not knowingly contribute to any possible trauma of any woman.' They seem surprised that we care how we do our work, but they also accept it." (Counselor, New York)


"I never dreamed, in my wildest nightmares, that there would ever be a situation where I personally would choose such an act. Of course, we would each like to think that our reasons for a termination are the exception to the rule. But the bottom line is that you people spend your lives, reputations, careers and energy fighting for, maintaining, and providing an option that I needed, while I spent my energy lambasting you. Yet you still allowed me to make use of your services even though I had been one of your enemies. You treated us as kindly and warmly as you did all of your patients and never once pointed an 'I told you so' finger in our direction. I got the impression that you cared equally about each woman in the facility and what each woman was going through, regardless of her reasons for choosing the procedure. I have never met a group of purely non-judgmental people like yourselves."


"I was born into a very Catholic family, and was politically pro-life during college. After dating my first real boyfriend for three years, we broke up, and the day my boyfriend moved out, I discovered I was pregnant. It was an agonizing decision, and something I never thought I would do, but I decided an abortion was the only realistic option. Thanks to Planned Parenthood counseling, I worked through some very tough conflicts within myself. I had to learn that my decision was a loving one. That 'my god' was actually a loving and supportive god. And that men don't have to make this decision, only women do. That it is a very personal, individual decision. I had to own it. I became much more compassionate towards myself and others as a result of my experience. Two years later I began medical school. When it came time to choose a practice, an abortion clinic opportunity came up. In working there, I began to feel that this was my calling. Having been in my patients' shoes, and coming from an unforgiving background, I could honestly say to patients, 'I know how you feel.' Deciding to have an abortion was THE hardest decision I've ever made in my life. Yet it has brought me the greatest transformation, fulfillment, and now joy. I am a more loving person because of it, and a better doctor for having experienced it. I love the work that I do, and the opportunity to support women seeking to end an unwanted pregnancy. My patients and my work are life's gifts to me, and I think my compassion and support are my gifts in return."

 

[Rothbard]

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

"We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado)

"In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State)

"The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

"I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York)

"I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands)

"My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

"A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

"I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)

"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)


An administrator at a Missouri clinic recalled a woman blurting out in the recovery room, "It should be illegal." The other women's mouths fell open, said the administrator. "They couldn't believe it."

The medical director of an Indianapolis clinic recalled one prospective patient who phoned to ask whether the clinic had a back door. He said no. How, she asked, could she get inside without being seen by fellow picketers outside? Pointing out that two orthopedists practiced with him, the doctor told the woman "she could limp and say she was coming to see the orthopods."

The medical director at a Dallas abortion clinic told this story: A white woman from an affluent north Dallas neighborhood brought her black maid in for an abortion and paid for it. While the maid was in a counseling session, a commotion was heard in the waiting room outside. The maid's employer was handing out anti-abortion leaflets to other women waiting for abortions.

From a clinic director in a mid-western state: "One of the most remarkable cases was a woman who came [from another part of the state] and said she was the Right-to-Life president in her county. 'But,' she said, she 'had become pregnant and had to have an abortion.'"

From a counselor in Virginia: "[The patient] was disturbed and upset and insisted she couldn't carry the pregnancy to term. She opposed abortion -- and in fact had picketed this very clinic -- [but] felt the abortion was something she had to do."


"Early in my career, I thought I was obligated to provide an abortion for every woman who arrived at my doorstep requesting an abortion. My experience in general medicine, surgery, and abortion has led me to believe differently. Not inadvertently, women give either me or my staff an uneasy feeling about their ambivalence or their anxiety about the abortion process. Since I have never been sued for an abortion I did not perform, my policy is to acknowledge my gut feeling, which is more often right than wrong."

"I have long felt that anti-abortionism is a psychological contraindication to the abortion procedure. And that we don't have to give everyone who asks an abortion. An anti-abortion woman is likely to be uncooperative and will probably not follow post-op instructions or instructions on how to deal with complications. There is actually a case where an anti-abortion patient failed to go as directed to Emergency for an unrelated complication. She ended up dying, and her family sued the physician and badgered him publicly. Additionally, if you have a complication that day, it will be the anti-abortionist. I'm not talking about the patient who says, 'I was against abortion until it happened to me', or 'I'm really against abortion, but I have to do this'. I'm talking about the picketer, the activist, the totally anti-creature who will come back to haunt us."


"When a patient comes in with my 'favorite' sentiment: 'The only moral abortion is my abortion,' I try to expand her understanding that a few more of us have had and deserve a 'moral' abortion. When a woman expands her need for care beyond herself, you no longer have an 'anti'." (Clinic Administrator, Louisiana)

"Sometimes I say to patients who have that 'I have no choice, I know I'll regret it, just do me' attitude: 'You may not care, but we do. We only do abortions on women who want our services. We will not knowingly contribute to any possible trauma of any woman.' They seem surprised that we care how we do our work, but they also accept it." (Counselor, New York)


"I never dreamed, in my wildest nightmares, that there would ever be a situation where I personally would choose such an act. Of course, we would each like to think that our reasons for a termination are the exception to the rule. But the bottom line is that you people spend your lives, reputations, careers and energy fighting for, maintaining, and providing an option that I needed, while I spent my energy lambasting you. Yet you still allowed me to make use of your services even though I had been one of your enemies. You treated us as kindly and warmly as you did all of your patients and never once pointed an 'I told you so' finger in our direction. I got the impression that you cared equally about each woman in the facility and what each woman was going through, regardless of her reasons for choosing the procedure. I have never met a group of purely non-judgmental people like yourselves."


"I was born into a very Catholic family, and was politically pro-life during college. After dating my first real boyfriend for three years, we broke up, and the day my boyfriend moved out, I discovered I was pregnant. It was an agonizing decision, and something I never thought I would do, but I decided an abortion was the only realistic option. Thanks to Planned Parenthood counseling, I worked through some very tough conflicts within myself. I had to learn that my decision was a loving one. That 'my god' was actually a loving and supportive god. And that men don't have to make this decision, only women do. That it is a very personal, individual decision. I had to own it. I became much more compassionate towards myself and others as a result of my experience. Two years later I began medical school. When it came time to choose a practice, an abortion clinic opportunity came up. In working there, I began to feel that this was my calling. Having been in my patients' shoes, and coming from an unforgiving background, I could honestly say to patients, 'I know how you feel.' Deciding to have an abortion was THE hardest decision I've ever made in my life. Yet it has brought me the greatest transformation, fulfillment, and now joy. I am a more loving person because of it, and a better doctor for having experienced it. I love the work that I do, and the opportunity to support women seeking to end an unwanted pregnancy. My patients and my work are life's gifts to me, and I think my compassion and support are my gifts in return."

 

[ix3powerrangers]

I think everyone already assumed that you're Catholic.

You can't use the laws of another country as a reason that abortion is wrong. It's not illegal in Australia because women, not the state, should be allowed to decide what is best for them.

If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. Good for you. But don't you dare try to force women to have a child against their will.

Okay I admit giving an American law is kind of inapplicable to an Australian Forum, but to think that there was a case in a supreme court which ruled killing of a human, and even a foetus being illegal is worth looking at and giving extra thought.

Life is present prior to conception. The sperm and egg are living cells.

They fuse into a zygote, a single cell capable of dividing by mitosis. A zygote is basically just a cell membrane carrying a package of coded information for the direction of it's own replication. All a zygote is, is information for it's own replication, there is nothing more to it. It has less complexity and moral significance than a tapeworm.

Though the sperm and egg are living cells, they are not human. Once it becomes a person is when the two meet and form a zygote. Something very different to Mitosis. Think about it rarely or never do you hear of to cells (sperm and egg) joining together to create one new cell (zygote) for any other reasons than to create a baby.

Your profile says your a female so I'm assuming that's correct and that your graduating in 2011 making you somewhere around 15-17.

In the worst case scenario you are a victim of rape and was forced to have unprotected sex. You fall pregnant. You don't want this child, you don't know who the father is and heck you have your hsc to worry about.

You know about this early so you have other options beside abortion but wait your against the morning after pill. What would you do?

(and on reading your post again are you against all forms contraception? making you against safe sex?)

What would I do? I would love the child with all my heart. Because he/she is my son or daughter. Although I don't know the father and he/she was concieved that way it still makes the baby in my womb my son/daughter. He/she is a part of me and a person in itself. So I'd keep the baby treat him/her the way my parents treat me, with love and compassion.
I know it would be hard and it would require a lot of sacrifice, but isn't that what parents do for their kids and families, sacrifice? If you love someone wouldn't that require sacrifice?
So I'd be prepared to sacrifice my HSC just for my son/daughter. I can always do it some other time and there are other pathways like TAFE.
I won't care if that baby was conieved because of a rape, I won't care that I don't know who the father is. It may bother me at times. But the most important thing in my mind would be that what is in my womb is MY CHILD, I'm going to love it with all my heart and I'm prepared to make sacrifices.

There is a form of contraception.. well i wouldn't call it contraception, but there's a method called Natural Family Planning. Couples can do it if they either want to have a child or are avoiding to have a child. It's where the couple can determine days where they are most fertile and least fertile. And yes have "it" during those days.

My answer... Yes. There would be no need for "safe sex" if people didn't abstain. I think the best way to prevent STI's is through abstinance.
My main reason for being against contraception...
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jeremiah 1:5)
meaning that God planned for us to be born even before we are concieved "safe sex" or the "condom" prevents this from happening.

Don't any of you find it offensive how people say "teenagers horomones are everywhere, they can't control themselves, they're gonna have sex anyway"?
Cause seriously that's like saying we're animals, we can't control ourselves. The truth is that we're not. Isn't control power? Don't you find it offensive that people say we don't have the Power to control ourselves?

I just think that abortion is completely WRONG its MURDER and we all need to face the truth.

I respect all of your opinions and I take them all into consideration and I just hope you can do the same with me.

What is popular is not always right, what is right is not always popular.