Please see this, letter to adrian piccoli, minister of education (3 Viewers)

[JINOUGA]

COmpletely misinterpreted, I meant being shit at english DOES NOT NECESSARILY mean you're stupid overall, while being good at english DOES necessarily mean you are smart overall, because proficiency in english requires a lot of brainpower dont get me wrong. I am complimenting english students here, not ridiculing them.

Then why are you treating it differently to maths and science?

 

[hayabusaboston]

Then why are you treating it differently to maths and science?

Because they are both completely different areas of "intellect", and I think that putting them together can potentially lead to misguided analysis of someone's high school performance

 

[JINOUGA]

Because they are both completely different areas of "intellect", and I think that putting them together can potentially lead to misguided analysis of someone's high school performance

what do you mean different areas of "intellect"? Also how exactly does putting them together give a "misguided" analysis of performance?

 

[Selador]

Piccoli is not likely to do much over your concerns over the ATAR. Remember the ATAR is a creation of the universities so that they can more easily handle admissions. Concerns are best directed at the New South Wales Vice-Chancellors’ Committee who owns UAC and is responsible for common admissions policies. State governments do not usually interfere with these processes.

 

[deswa1]

Just throwing something out there- the scaling in maths especially but also the sciences is insane. For people that are naturally inclined towards maths, a mid B6 in both 3/4U maths is pretty achievable and that scales to an ATAR equivalent of 99.95. My point is that the system is already sort of stacked towards people that are 'oriented' (as you put it) towards these subjects- its unfair to those who aren't naturally as good at maths etc. to make it even more so.

 

[JasonG123]

FAROUT fine! It is here, UNFINISHED and UNEDITED and UNFORMALISED okay?

Hi Mr Piccoli
My name is Alexander Wojno, I am a student currently in year 11 in high school. I am just writing because I thought of something which I guessed could possibly become useful for the future. I am not sure if you are aware sir, but there is a very large proportion of students in NSW high schools who struggle with the HSC English courses, and there are many who I have myself spoken to who actively vocalise their hatred of the subject and the burden it causes them for their ATARs.

Although I have had my fair share of Advanced English struggles, I think on the whole it is a quite enjoyable subject, and definitely worth to keep for all students in the HSC, as we of course need to ensure that the students who graduate from NSW high schools are ready to engage as fully literate and linguistically capable members of society. I agree with the compulsory nature of English in the HSC.

However as aforementioned, I have come to realise that English can potentially be a very heavy burden for a vast majority of students in NSW, ATAR wise. Even in top selective schools, it can be very difficult for students to bring themselves to accept english as a necessity, and make a very large effort to do well in the subject, lest it shall bring down their ATAR. The fact that 2 units of english must be counted in ATAR calculation often drags down the ATAR's of many otherwise very talented students. It gives great grief and stress to many I have found.

I would like to keep the HSC english course as compulsory in year 11 and 12, though the aspect which I think would be worthy of change is the inclusion of english in ATAR calculation.

I think it might be a good idea to consider instead the creation of a separate report for all HSC students, with English.

Thus, students would receive an overall report of performance in their HSC subjects, along with an associated ATAR ranking, but rather than having English count towards ATAR, the student's english results would be detailed in a separate booklet specially for english. This would allow kid's ATARs to be a true reflection of their ability, because, as there is no "compulsory" subject that counts towards ATAR, kids can choose only the subjects they enjoy and are good at, allowing them to get a better ATAR overall, because they perform well in what they enjoy.

They would still have to do HSC english, though their results wont be as critical in determining whether or not they have a sufficient ATAR to pursue their dream careers.
So then university courses would also c
hange their entry requirements. The university would establish an ATAR cutoff for each individual course, AS WELL as establish a minimum HSC english score required, depending on the level of english competency they feel is required in a particular course.

As HSC english is largely skills based, this structure would allow for the separation of university courses where these skills are not as crucial for success, with the courses where these skills form a fundamental part of the students learning.

This structure overall does a few things.
1. Allows for students to have their HSC rank come from SOLELY the subjects they are good at, and thus have performed well in, giving a sure moral boost to all students in the state.
2. Maintains the necessity of english. This means students will know they still have to work in the subject, because Universities will still look upon their english score where appropriate. So students coming out of high school will have done sufficient study of the english language to function effectively in society regardless of the career path they cho
3. Separates the

tl;dr

If argument lacks coherency >>> Means that there needs to be english.
If argument has coherency >>> Means that english has been successful.

Either way your letter fails.

 

[LoveHateSchool]

Im sorry I didn't mean it to be interpreted that way, I meant to say I believe that english competency is not NECESSARILY indicative of intellectual ability. Indeed mathematically oriented people should be able to work up skill in english if they don't already have it, so I am obviously going to work at my english to get a minimum score of 90 in HSC.

Essentially I meant to convey that there are many scientifically/mathematically skilled people who do not have the "Orientation" to be naturally good at english, hence you can't judge them as being "stupid" overall.

Then how come you treat being good at maths and/or science differently? Look I don't see how lumping it together gives a "misguided" score. The maths and sciences have fantastic scaling in the system that stacks the system back in balance for maths/science kids. If you want the ATAR to be more all around, you would be aiming to move to like the IB/French Bac where you have to take subjects from different categories.

I'm not sure what you mean about "orientation" (do you mean aptitude?) but couldn't you say the same about the maths/sciences? Honestly your expression is quite unclear here and I think you just need to focus on your English.

 

[ncoul]

Just throwing something out there- the scaling in maths especially but also the sciences is insane. For people that are naturally inclined towards maths, a mid B6 in both 3/4U maths is pretty achievable and that scales to an ATAR equivalent of 99.95. My point is that the system is already sort of stacked towards people that are 'oriented' (as you put it) towards these subjects- its unfair to those who aren't naturally as good at maths etc. to make it even more so.

Very true

 

[Autonomatic]

@planino hehehe you said cocky

 

[planino]

@Auto "notgayatall" nomatic hehehe oh dear you saw that

 

[2xL]

Tbh i find people who are good at english are just as intellectual (in some cases, even more intellectual) as those who are proficient in maths and the sciences.

I don't see how being good in english is not indicative of intellectual ability and maths and science is.

Tl;dr hayabusaboston is being silly

Piss off, I hate your English loving ass. Tool.

 

[JINOUGA]

Piss off, I hate your English loving ass. Tool.

lol

 

[Amundies]

Tbh i find people who are good at english are just as intellectual (in some cases, even more intellectual) as those who are proficient in maths and the sciences.

I don't see how being good in english is not indicative of intellectual ability and maths and science is.

Tl;dr hayabusaboston is being silly

Even more intellectual? Give them a Maths/Science question and see them screw their mind over trying to figure out what to do. "Intellect" cannot be easily determined. You can be more intellectual than someone else granted that it's in the same field (i.e Physics ONLY, English ONLY, 4U Maths ONLY, etc), but you can't compare between 2 different fields.

Tl;dr JINOUGA is being silly

 

[JINOUGA]

Even more intellectual? Give them a Maths/Science question and see them screw their mind over trying to figure out what to do. "Intellect" cannot be easily determined. You can be more intellectual than someone else granted that it's in the same field (i.e Physics ONLY, English ONLY, 4U Maths ONLY, etc), but you can't compare between 2 different fields.

Tl;dr JINOUGA is being silly

lol that is my entire point. I'm saying you can't determine the intellect of someone purely on their proficiency in certain subjects, that you can have smart kids who are better at english and smart kids who are better at maths. A kid who is good at english can be just as smart as a kid good at maths and it is incorrect to say that being good at english requires any less intellectual ability than maths

 

[Fawun]

oh boy not this again

 

[iBibah]

lol that is my entire point. I'm saying you can't determine the intellect of someone purely on their proficiency in certain subjects, that you can have smart kids who are better at english and smart kids who are better at maths. A kid who is good at english can be just as smart as a kid good at maths and it is incorrect to say that being good at english requires any less intellectual ability than maths

+1

 

[Amundies]

In that case, JINOUGA is not actually being silly.

The letter is interesting, and me being bad at English (and also hating it) would love to see English stay compulsory but not have to count towards your ATAR, but English is a compulsory subject in countries all around the world. I don't see Australia changing this. Worth a try I suppose, but best not to get hopes up.

 

[JINOUGA]

Even if you don't want English to count towards your ATAR, having it as a separate score that unis look at anyway for admissions as hayabusaboston suggests defeats the entire purpose.

Yes let's not have it count for our ATAR but have the unis look at it anyway as a requirement

lol

 

[Amundies]

Well it ensures that it doesn't affect the ATAR unless you do well in it, but people can't bludge it because it still counts.

Meh, just my thoughts. I'll be doing the Adv course in 4 weeks time, so it won't affect me anyway.

 

[RealiseNothing]

tbh I can see haybusa's point, it does make sense in a way.

If you are gifted towards the maths/sciences, you have the burden of English being compulsory. However if you are gifted towards English/humanities, you don't have the burden of maths being compulsory.

ie why can't everyone be judged on what they are best at etc.

But this will never happen.