A tricky question (1 Viewer)

[mr EaZy]

Hi
What do u think of this:

Was Abraham a Jew, Christian or Muslim? Being a Muslim, im certain he is one, but it all depends on how you define a Jew Christian or Muslim.

So can someone please define a Jew/Christian/Muslim and then say why they think Abraham was a follower of such a religon?

i honestly want to know because i cant make out why Abraham could be:
A jew- as he was not the son of a jewess,
A christian- he was not "Christ like" and did not believe in trinity!

And to any Muslim experts out there, please define "who or what is a Muslim?"
Thanks

 

[snapperhead]

He's not Christian as Christianity didnt exist at the time of Abraham.... (Christianity started around 30 CE)
He wasnt a Muslim as Islam didnt exist at the time of Abraham (Muhammad is commonly acknowledged as the 'founder' -loose terminology- of Islam around 600 CE (give or take)- I know there is an argument over when did Islam actually start ie what/who did the Peninsula Arabs "worship" prior to Muhammad?? + factor in the establishment and upkeep of Mecca prior to Muhammad and why he captured Mecca-or was it Medina. Im a bit hazy at the moment- but I think its a given that Muhammad started what is known as "Islam" in the 600's CE-Abraham died around 1600-2000 BCE....the Exodus was in 1200 BCE so Im just backtracking here!!)

Doesnt "Islam" (again the question of when did it start??) trace it roots back to Ishmael who was the illegitimate son of Hagar and Abram?? ie Abraham didnt exist as he changed his name from Abram to Abraham when he made the covenant with God (and I guess became the first Jew or Chosen one of God)...Hagar and Ishmael were then sent away by Sarah (Abe's wife) as she was jealous (Genesis 21 :9)...guess it boils down to when you say Islam 'started' (Muhammad or before) and was Abraham "Abraham" when Ishmael was born and if when Abram made the covenant with God and God promised "numbers more than the stars", is this when Judaism started ??

As the first "Jew", it was a bit hard for him to be the son of a Jewess!!! (Gotta start somewhere!!)

As for "what/who is a Muslim"?- isnt a Muslim one who follows Islam (yeah- I know, duh but its actually a powerful definition if you think about it) -for converts, isnt a public declaration of the Shahada (sp?) the only thing required to convert??

My opinion...hope it helps!

 

[mr EaZy]

Woe, Hold your horses there!

Alright, some points u mentioned there im not so sure about. The start of judaism: im not sure about this. I thought it started with the people of judah?? the jews i thought were the decendants of Israel and hence were called the children of israel. Israel (jacob) was the grandson of Abraham. Yeah, im pretty sure, thats how it started, but i hope a learned jew can confirm this for me.

 

[mr EaZy]

oops, i sent my message twice! sorry!

 

[Chand]

I have a whole book on the Prophets. Its an interesting read.

Ibrahim (pbuh) was considered one of the Prophets of Allah and is mentioned in the Qur'an. Adam (pbuh) was the first prophet, and the first man.

As for being a muslim, it is defined in the first pillar of Islam, the Shahadah or declaration of faith. To believe that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammed (pbuh) is His messenger.

I don't think its only for converts, but whoever is a true muslim. I mean you can have muslim people by name, but they might not really believe or having enough spiritual awareness themselves to follow Islam, other than for the reason that is what their parents believe. Anyone can say it, its a matter of believing it.

Only one woman and man shared Ibrahim's belief that there was only one God. The woman, Sarah became his wife, and the man Lut (Lot) became a prophet. On the way Egypt, Ibrahim encountered a tyrant who ended up giving a main servant to Sarah, whos name was Hajar. Sarah was sterile, and she thought that she and Abraham was lonely because they did not have a child and Ibrahim was growing old, so she offered her servant Hajar in marriage to Ibrahim. Hajar gave birth to Isma'il (Ishamael) when Ibrahim was an old man. There's also a story with his second wife, Hajar and his son Isma'il.

Ibrahim built the Ka'ba with Ismail, and also the story about Hajar and Isma'il is associated with the Zam Zam water and the running between the two hills, Safa and Marwa as part of Hajj. I think Hajar had another son Ishaaq (Isaac) as well.

Sorry to diverge from the question. Hope its answered somewhere inside this post

 

[snapperhead]

I was trying to keep it really broad and simple..sorry if it was a little confusing. eg the who is a Muslim thing. Being aware of the 5 pillars, I went for a simple defn ie one who follows or 'submits' + I threw in the shahada just in case...!!
I know that (for eg.) that Mohummad didnt "found" Islam but rather was the last of the prophets and there was a form of worship aimed at 'One God' etc etc etc...like I said, I was trying to keep it simple. Please be aware that this is from a Judeo-Christian perspective so things will be different (esp. when using sources like the Torah and the Quran.....and I mean this in a nice way as I am aware that both faiths see it as the word of G-d/Allah and Im not willing to state who is more correct!! eg the who started Judaism line...according to my Old Testament, thats how it goes... but I am aware the Islamic thinking does diverge on this point.

My suggestions...try islamicity.com and jewfaq.org as they are pretty good sources of down the line info

 

[mr EaZy]

thanks to both of you. i was just about to clear this up myself, but BOS decided to renovate this site at peak time (trials!). A muslim is not a follower of islam But anyone who follows islam is a muslim. I found this out for myself: The Quran says that Ibrahim was a Hanif, what does this mean? it means that he worshiped none but god! he contemplated god's existance and god guided him. you can refer to the Quran (An-Nahl 16:120-123)

A muslim is anyone who submits to the will of god, his judgement and mercy. A mu'min is a believer in islam. A bahai man came to my islamic teacher saying "im muslim!" my teacher replied "yes, but you're not a mu'min". A mu'min believes in the truth of islam and nothing except this truth. Anything that does what Allah has instructed him/her/it to do as a LAW is a muslim. A baby is a muslim, angels are muslims, anyone who says: i believe in one god alone and complies with god's commands is a muslim.

The Christians and Jews like muslims were Ordered according to the Quran to worship god and be good always :uhhuh: . They were commanded to be muslim! (by definition)

As for Ibrahim, he was a muslim by definition. HE submitted to Allah, did what Allah wanted him to do: Always. And the Quran says "Then we have sent the revelation to you (o Muhammad pbuh) saying: Follow the religon of Ibrahim, Hanif (Islamic Monotheism- worshiping none but Allah), " (16:123).

So we, the followers of Islam, Call Ibrahim a muslim. MUSLIM, is just an ARABIC word that describes what people were ordered to do (worship god). THat is all. These religious prophets had their own languages & cultures. The words "Islam" and "muslim" were not in their languange and hence, not used.

And Finally, you said that Ismail was an illegitamate son of Ibrahim. THat is not true according to MUslims (i don't know about you guys, sorry). As Chand had said, he Married Sarah's servant as Sarah allowed the marriage to take place.

I also have one last problem : you said:
"(Christianity started around 30 CE)", i assume this is the same as 30AD. but doesnt AD stand for (Anno dominae) : After the death of Jesus? Did Christianity start after he left this world or before? or was it when Paul or Peter met Jesus after such an event? i'd appreciate any reply. THANNNNKS!

 

[juventino]

Beyond me

 

[snapperhead]

this is what I meant by using different sources (ie either the Quran or the Torah or the Old Testament). Without being disrespectful, they all say different things about the same thing and all claim to be the most correct!! (Well at least to Muslims, Jews and fundamental Christians ). This is why I said that Islam is dated to around 600 CE as this is when Muhammad "got things organised" even though there is evidence of monotheistic worship amongst the Pennisula Arabs (again, keeping it nice and simple) as it depends upon your sources (again as already said)
As I said, depends upon your perspective. As a Christian, what I wrote is correct (same as the Jewish POV as well I might add) but as a Muslim, you have a different view (as argued by Chand). Who is the most right?? Depends on your POV!!
The official start of Christianity is at Pentecost or when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles which was a short period of time after the death of Jesus hence around 30 CE (but see below as well)

CE= Common Era which is the more accepted way of writing AD (= Anno Dominae= 'In the year of our Lord not after Death. If this was so, there would be 30 missing years!!). Jesus was born sometime in 6-4 BC which means that there is no 0 year which means their cannot be a AD after 0!!! Plus for dating purposes, its not verey nice to date everything to a Christian standard (eg the concept of Islamic 'time (which I am vague on) dates from around 600 CE so the Islamic calander doesnt line up time wise with the Judeo-Claudian calander-I think!!))
Way to confusing to explain here. I suggest a quick google search or you can just trust me on this one!!

IMO..this is really a "what you believe is right IS RIGHT" type of situation as Im not a fundie Christian .: Im not going to say you are wrong 'cause my religious sources say you are!!! LOL
Hope this is a clear as mud!
LOL

 

[juventino]

The beauty of religion....when nobody is right

 

[mr EaZy]

CE= Common Era which is the more accepted way of writing AD (= Anno Dominae= 'In the year of our Lord not after Death. If this was so, there would be 30 missing years!!). Hope this is a clear as mud!
LOL

thanks for clearing up the A.D stuff, i really thought it meant After death.

 

[mr EaZy]

The beauty of religion....

It is beautiful isn't it. The important thing to remember is to have respect and tolerate other faiths, and to immerse yourself in your religon.

So, yeah ... GET into it mate!

 

[snapperhead]

It is beautiful isn't it. The important thing to remember is to have respect and tolerate other faiths, and to immerse yourself in your religon.

So, yeah ... GET into it mate!

agreed.....

 

[Chand]

I have no idea where to put this (cant find any relevant thread) but I think its a great resource and info for everyone.

Its a link to the website of a doc umentary that PBS did in 2002 about the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and the link to the documentary transcript.

Muhammed: Legacy of A Prophet
Documentary Transcript

You can also buy the video here.

 

[Mizuki]

an addition to what's said in the obove posts:

This is a saying of the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) : "The association between me and former prophets is similar to a fine building with a place for a missing corner brick. The people admired it and desired it to be layed. I am that brick and I am the last prophet" (not exact wording)
meaning that all the prophets before Muhammad(pbuh) had the same faith and basis for their religion, Islam is only a completion of what the previous prophets taught. There are only differences in their laws, for example the people of Moses(pbuh) had much stricter laws than the current muslims.eg. In Moses(pbuh) time, if urine were to splash on someones clothes, they would have to cut that part off...but people of Muhammad(pbuh) time are only ordered to wash it off...

yep, and I agree, religion is very beautiful^^

 

[mr EaZy]

thnx, for the input,
hey Snapperhead, wat or where is Pentecost, never heard of it before.
I used to think i knew a lot about the early history of Christendom,
now: i probably know jack!!

 

[snapperhead]

thnx, for the input,
hey Snapperhead, wat or where is Pentecost, never heard of it before.
I used to think i knew a lot about the early history of Christendom,
now: i probably know jack!!

Pentecost= when the Holy Spirit came down upon the Apostles and they began to speak in tongues. It was just after Jesus died/was murdered and it was after this that the apostles went out to spread the word of God