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AWD vs. 4WD vs. FWD vs. RWD (3 Viewers)

anomalousdecay

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What are your thoughts on these different drivetrains?

I've only driven AWD and FWD and I've found much more comfort in an AWD in terms of handling and acceleration. Also, the traction is a lot better in AWD in my opinion.
 

Drifting95

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RWD, the feeling of the tail coming out is amazing when controlled (reference to a certain experience in a Z4 :p)
 

wannaspoon

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AWD FTW, nothing beats the grip... can't get enough of the launch of a GTIR; however, it does sound like my whole car is about to fall apart every time I do it (so I don't really like doing it)... That AWD grip in the wet is astonishing!!!! they do everything you tell them to do and are beautiful to drive... especially in mountainous areas and roads with a lot of corners... However, RWD is really fun, but, I'm not really a fan of the whole drifting fad...
 
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nerdasdasd

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^ Drifting is fun but expensive ... Them cost of tyres.

If you're inexperienced try not to go too fast or you'll find yourself needing to costly repairs.....
 

anomalousdecay

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AWD FTW, nothing beats the grip... can't get enough of the launch of a GTIR; however, it does sound like my whole car is about to fall apart every time I do it (so I don't really like doing it)... That AWD grip in the wet is astonishing!!!! they do everything you tell them to do and are beautiful to drive... especially in mountainous areas and roads with a lot of corners... However, RWD is really fun, but, I'm not really a fan of the whole drifting fad...
The traction of AWD......beast.
 

brent012

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Depends entirely on how much power, where it makes that power as well as the kind of car it is etc.

In response to all the FWD bashing that will occur in this thread I think FWD in a car (assuming it's 1000kg+) with under 200 (flywheel) horsepower is good, or perhaps something like Audi and Mazda's awd with heavy fwd bias. We don't really have bad weather here so in that kind of car FWD is ideal due to little dirvetrain losses. (i.e. more efficient)
 

anomalousdecay

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Depends entirely on how much power, where it makes that power as well as the kind of car it is etc.

In response to all the FWD bashing that will occur in this thread I think FWD in a car (assuming it's 1000kg+) with under 200 (flywheel) horsepower is good, or perhaps something like Audi and Mazda's awd with heavy fwd bias. We don't really have bad weather here so in that kind of car FWD is ideal due to little dirvetrain losses. (i.e. more efficient)
Take a look at these two:

Same capacity, but one is AWD (which is heavier) and one FWD. However you may argue that the CVT in the AWD makes a much bigger difference compared to the FWD.

http://www.autoevolution.com/engine/subaru-outback-1998-30.html

http://www.autoevolution.com/engine/toyota-camry-1997-30i.html


Fast track 10 years and:

http://www.autoevolution.com/engine/subaru-outback-2009-25i-cvt-173-hp.html

http://www.autoevolution.com/engine/toyota-camry-2011-25l.html

The FWD is now more efficient. Would you have any explanation as to why?
 

brent012

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Those horsepower readings are all at the flywheel, the difference is the engines which could be down to a lot of things, off the top of my head for an N/A car - state of tune, compression ratio, efficiency of the exhaust + intake, efficiency of the engine as a whole, aggresiveness of the cams, any variable vale timing/other technologies, how high peak rpm is since horsepower is simply a function of torque and rpm (as was the case with those last two - similar torque at 4100 but the toyota revs 400 more) etc.

If you put a FWD and AWD car on a dyno assuming both cars have identical flywheel horsepower the FWD car will have more horsepower at the wheels. FWD is simply a more efficient drive train, the motor is closer to the wheels being driven in comparison to RWD and in comparison to AWD there are less moving parts, less complexity as well as the point mentioned before about rwd vs fwd.

But on the road an AWD car will be more easily able to make use of it's horsepower at the wheels (i.e. put it to the ground). That is more pronounced with big horsepower RWD vs AWD cars though, ofcourse an AWD car will launch better than a FWD car but the average FWD car won't spin its wheels if you floor it suddenly like in a higher HP rwd car.

I actually have no idea if a CVT transmission is less efficient than a traditional auto or manual, but i'm pretty they would be. Once again those figures are at the flywheel and don't take into account transmission and drivetrain losses.
 

obliviousninja

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^ Drifting is fun but expensive ... Them cost of tyres.

If you're inexperienced try not to go too fast or you'll find yourself needing to costly repairs.....
Drifting sesh in commemoration of Paul Walker.
 

anomalousdecay

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I actually have no idea if a CVT transmission is less efficient than a traditional auto or manual, but i'm pretty they would be. Once again those figures are at the flywheel and don't take into account transmission and drivetrain losses.
CVT usually is more efficient, because it basically acts like a manual car, however the on-board electronics decide when to shift rather than the driver, for best efficiency and traction.

I actually was trying to refer to the fuel consumption, but you're right about the flywheel outputs. It makes sense to have full power at the front wheels and minimise losses, in comparison to RWD and AWD. So in the end, the dyno outputs from a flywheel would not account for the power loss. It's similar to how electric power is lost in electric transmission lines: The more movement, the less efficient. I couldn't agree with you more on that fact.

However, the traction can be a little different, an hence the interaction of the power to the environment can be a little different. This may account for the difference in thirst in each of those outputs.

I realised a mistake with my recent post as well. I referred to a boxer engine and a straight 4. I had 2 variables (engine type and output type).
Boxers have not increased in fuel efficiency for a while, whereas straight 4's have........I have to find different cars to compare.
 
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Graney

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I only drive rwd for now, but if I was going to replace my current car I'd probably get a little fwd hatch.

The rwd is good for sick drifts, it is fun, but fwd cars are so much cheaper to purchase and use less fuel. I have replaced CV joints before though and that's not fun, so that's one up for rwd. Mum's mazda 2 handles amazingly, more fun than the rwd cars actually tbh.

It'd be interesting if a major manufacturer made a real budget rwd, like a yaris or corolla. As I see it, it's not so much an issue that rwd *must* use more fuel, it's that the only rwd cars are large or have engines slanted towards performance rather than economy.
 

Graney

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Basically I want a car that'll take me to work and back 5 days a week and return 6L/100km in the city,

and then when it rains allow me to do massive opposite lock skids around the local roundabouts.
 

brent012

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I actually was trying to refer to the fuel consumption, but you're right about the flywheel outputs.
When I talk about efficiency I am referring to volumetric efficiency, drive line efficiency etc. as opposed to economy. I'm not saying fuel economy isn't a form of efficiency - it definitely is, I just don't think it's easily measured or varies enough when everything else is equal in modern cars. The LSx series V8s can get pretty amazing fuel economy but no one drives them that way.

As for boxers economy and efficiency, from my understanding Subaru are sacrificing both of them to maintain the distinct sound the Subaru's have.

all wheel drive is slower on takeoff than a rear wheel drive car in a race
Nope, no production car can launch faster than a Nissan GTR. Pretty sure there is a video around (Jeremy Clarkson was presenter iirc, but it wasn't Top Gear) which shows a Nissan GTR beat an MP4-12C (which also have great launch control) in a very short drag race.
 
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anomalousdecay

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When I talk about efficiency I am referring to volumetric efficiency, drive line efficiency etc. as opposed to economy. I'm not saying fuel economy isn't a form of efficiency - it definitely is, I just don't think it's easily measured or varies enough when everything else is equal in modern cars.
Yeah I guess so. You would have to test it on a few road trips on a set track, with the cars side by side.

As for boxers economy and efficiency, from my understanding Subaru are sacrificing both of them to maintain the distinct sound the Subaru's have.
Subaru has not worked on their efficiency on fuel consumption until the release of the XV. Other than that, they have not followed other companies like Mazda in producing new technologies to save fuel (Mazda chose to stop producing rotary engines and instead produced skyactiv with the same funds). However, Subaru has spent the time to develop some of the safest cars on the road. People often undermine the true reason to why some Subaru's look ugly. They are made as safe as possible in terms of collisions, with the sacrifice of looks. Of course, safety should be much more important than looks, and they don't even look that bad.

Nope, no production car can launch faster than a Nissan GTR. Pretty sure there is a video around (Jeremy Clarkson was presenter iirc, but it wasn't Top Gear) which shows a Nissan GTR beat an MP4-12C (which also have great launch control) in a very short drag race.
This. The traction of an AWD or 4WD allows the car to maximise its output through the increased friction on the road @ Asparagus.

Many RWD cars do burnouts when the accelerator is slammed. Some FWD cars will also do burnouts because of the inertia of the rest of the car, which reduces the "pulling" power of FWD.

all wheel drive means increased tyre wear
Not necessarily. The increased friction will equally distribute the wear. However, the wear in FWD/RWD is quite high on the "pulling"/"pushing" tyres, and you should constantly change the front tyres with the rear tyres every 3 months at least to prevent the unbalance.
 
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brent012

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This. The traction of an AWD or 4WD allows the car to maximise its output through the increased friction on the road @ Asparagus.
4WD is more for cross country kind of terrain as opposed to launching and going around corners fast haha.
 

anomalousdecay

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4WD is more for cross country kind of terrain as opposed to launching and going around corners fast haha.
Yeah. Well to get that increased friction, you need a 4WD, so that if you have a cpu in the car, it knows how much traction you need for different off-road situations.

Great discussion though :p

It opened myself up to more FWD and RWD use, even though I found FWD uncomfortable and harder to keep traction of.
 

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