Capitalism or Communism? (2 Viewers)

[campbellleo]

The age-old question, I think, needs to be asked again. I think in an era when communism as an ideal has been tainted by bad memories of Soviet Russia and other equally inept governments, people should have the presence of mind to realise that capitalism just plain isn't working as well as we think it is.

Just to clarify:

• Communism is an ECONOMIC, not a POLITICAL sytem. A communist country can be democratic or totalitarian, just the same as a capitalist country can. However, the systems have obvious political overtones.
• Communism is NOT Facism. If you don't know the difference, look it up before posting.
• Be open minded. You have been force-fed the horror stories, propaganda and true, of communist states; however, the argument is not constructive unless you are willing to consider the opinions of others.

Enjoy! I might wait until a couple of the obvious 'flaws' of the system are pointed out before I post.

If anyone will humour me with an argument, that is.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

I'd prefer a softer version of capitalism whereby the state controls all production and distribution of wealth.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Considering this is probably the most wrote about subject of the 19th/20th/21st century, I really hope the debate doesn't take off too vigorously - Book-long posts are likely to come.

 

[Nesty]

communism.. just for the concept. but it would never work

 

[walrusbear]

capitalism

it's better at utilising people's prime motivations

though i think some of the far right versions of capitalism you see on this board are as unrealistic as communism

 

[banco55]

The age-old question, I think, needs to be asked again. I think in an era when communism as an ideal has been tainted by bad memories of Soviet Russia and other equally inept governments, people should have the presence of mind to realise that capitalism just plain isn't working as well as we think it is.

Just to clarify:

• Communism is an ECONOMIC, not a POLITICAL sytem. A communist country can be democratic or totalitarian, just the same as a capitalist country can. However, the systems have obvious political overtones.
• Communism is NOT Facism. If you don't know the difference, look it up before posting.
• Be open minded. You have been force-fed the horror stories, propaganda and true, of communist states; however, the argument is not constructive unless you are willing to consider the opinions of others.

Enjoy! I might wait until a couple of the obvious 'flaws' of the system are pointed out before I post.

If anyone will humour me with an argument, that is.

"the system has obvious political overtones" is just a slight understatement. I always wonder when people talk about being "open minded" about communism you'd never hear people say be open minded about facism. Yes I know communism is not facism but even facism has a milder versions that were attractive to large numbers of people during the first half of the 20th century.

 

[_dhj_]

No but seriously people have to be open-minded about fascism.

 

[Capitalist Scum]

communism.. just for the concept. but it would never work

Communism, as a concept, is about denial of choice (i.e. nationalised industry), theft (i.e. taxation) and one board of 10-15 individuals controlling the entire economy. If that's what anyone considers beautiful, then I hear Brian Peppers needs a fuck buddy.

 

[spiny norman]

Communism, as a concept, is about denial of choice (i.e. nationalised industry), theft (i.e. taxation) and one board of 10-15 individuals controlling the entire economy. If that's what anyone considers beautiful, then I hear Brian Peppers needs a fuck buddy.

As opposed to the capitalist system which is based on the notion of everyone exploiting those under them?

 

[Capitalist Scum]

As opposed to the capitalist system which is based on the notion of everyone exploiting those under them?

Yeah, because the option of self-employment doesn't exist in a free market, silly me. If people are being exploited (i.e. having their employer take more of the profits of their labour than they are entitled to), then this implies that the same employees can make more money without their employer, that is by either starting up their own business or becoming a contractor.

Also to the opening poster, can you please point out where in the world today capitalism exists?

 

[volition]

One of the major flaws with communism (economically), is the lack of the ability to know the 'true' price of things. The best price that can be set for a good is determined by the free market.

In a communist system, all the means of production are owned by the government, so this means that the people are only able to trade consumption goods. The price of production goods is not determined by exchange (the best way we know to set the price), but rather it is arbitrarily set (taking a stab in the dark) by the government.

What implication does having the incorrect price have? It means that resources are not efficiently apportioned, which means we aren't able to do as much as could have with the same set of resources.

To illustrate this, imagine that a given capital good’s price was arbitrarily set too low. Not enough resources would flow into the production of this capital good, and instead, they would go into other goods and services that we originally considered inferior to the stuff that we could make with this given capital good.

On the other side of the coin, if capital good prices were set too high (and we still bought these goods) then resources have been misused (we could have put them to better use) in the production of these capital goods.

 

[loquasagacious]

I think the OP is underestimating how interlinked economics and politics are. Put simply you can not have a democratic communist state, nor can you have a totalitarian capitalist state. This is because economics and politics are two sides of the same coin.

If you are a communist state then you control the factors of production and basically put drastically reduce the freedom of individuals. People now work, live, eat, worship etc when, where, what and how you tell them too. Furhthermore communism is inherantly flawed and doesn't work so if a communist state where democratic eventually it would be voted out.

The reverse s true however that dictatorship and capitalism are mutually incompatible, a free market engenders a free society which agitates against a dictatorship. To maintain control of a society the dictator must bring its economy under control. Hence the advent of facism.

 

[banco55]

I think the OP is underestimating how interlinked economics and politics are. Put simply you can not have a democratic communist state, nor can you have a totalitarian capitalist state. This is because economics and politics are two sides of the same coin.

If you are a communist state then you control the factors of production and basically put drastically reduce the freedom of individuals. People now work, live, eat, worship etc when, where, what and how you tell them too. Furhthermore communism is inherantly flawed and doesn't work so if a communist state where democratic eventually it would be voted out.

The reverse s true however that dictatorship and capitalism are mutually incompatible, a free market engenders a free society which agitates against a dictatorship. To maintain control of a society the dictator must bring its economy under control. Hence the advent of facism.

Depends how you define totalitarian. China proves at least in the medium term you can have highly authoritarian quasi capitalist state.

 

[loquasagacious]

Yes but China will face much upheaval as its quasi-capitalist economy becomes less quasi and the democracry movement gains momentum. Infact China will be the proof of my assertion as it becomes more capitalist it will become more democratic.

Though you are right this is a long-run scenario - though having said that the parameters of this thread dictate that we are talking in the long-run eg we aren't talking about a week of communism just to try it on for size.....

 

[lengy]

I prefer individual freedoms with neccessary regulations.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

eg. banning the Falun Gong death cult

 

[sam04u]

Capitalism works better in Practice, Communism works better in Theory.

So, we find a medium and voila. Utopia.

 

[lengy]

One person's utopia is another's dystopia.

 

[HotShot]

That and the fact not a single country has praticed communism in a proper manner.

 

[Capitalist Scum]

Capitalism works better in Practice, Communism works better in Theory.

So, we find a medium and voila. Utopia.

Theft and oppression are good theories?