It's all about the ranks. (1 Viewer)

[Aquawhite]

The topic kind of says it but there is a question playing in my mind.

I understand the fact that ranks > marks (although having good marks is good), but it has become apparent through reading many posts that school ranking is important in some ways.

Would someone please enlighten me on how school ranks affect the HSC/UAI. If so, better school rank is better for own marks?

Thanks

 

[tommykins]

school ranks do not effect ur UAI at all.

its only purpose is for 'estimations'

 

[lyounamu]

ranks at school matter but school ranks don't matter

 

[youngminii]

Your mark is divided into your internal mark and your external mark. Your internal mark is aligned based on what rank you got for internal assessments and the mark of the person who got the same rank as your internal assessments in their external assessments. That and your own external mark is averaged out and ta-da! There's your HSC mark.
Now obviously, with a better school, the person that has the same rank as your internal assessment in their external assessment would get a better mark than a person in a crappier school, and since your internal mark is based on that person's external mark, it benefits you if that person gets a higher mark. Since you can't just single out one person who's gonna get your rank, it's better if everyone in your school does really good.
As such, if you get the same rank in your internal and external assessments (ie. you come first in both), then your mark will NOT be affected by your school.

 

[Aquawhite]

Thanks youngminii. I knew the system worked like that but you pointed out the rather small details .

I'm sure I will be fine with ranks... I plan to try and get perfect internals for english and then people will boost me, because I doubt I can get the top external mark for english.

Ha! My school would be ranked crap from the UAI/HSC results last year. Does anyone know where I can find a list of last year's school ranks?

 

[youngminii]

But then the rankings don't really paint a clear picture, 'cause it's calculated based on the % of band 6s there are in your school. So if School A had 30% of their subjects as 99 for their HSC mark, but School B had 32% as 90 for their HSC mark, School B would be ranked higher than School A.
You'd know if your school is smart. Also, if you're at the top end of the school then it's only the top students that you have to worry about (the school rankings also do not show how smart the top students are at the schools).

 

[mleiu]

youngminii, well said. repped

 

[Aquawhite]

Very sufficient. Thanks.

My year group for HSC 2010 is apparently the best my school has had (says the Principal: Best '08 school certificate results). Hopefully he actually puts a little pressure on the kids this year... competition is good and will help us all boost marks.

 

[Brontecat]

what about schools that have class sizes that are too small to be counted the same? Let's say 8 people at most

 

[Aquawhite]

Some of my classes are very small.

Music 1 = 9 students
Physics = 7 students
MX1 = 4 students

 

[cem]

A couple of pieces of misinformation/misinterpretation exist in this thread.

1. Only the top and bottom students get the exam marks of those positions in the examas their moderated assessment marks, unless there are ties, in which case the marks of the ties are averaged e.g. two students sent in equal first but top exam mark is 96 and second mark is 90 the top assessment
mark will be 93.

2. Other students get their moderated assessment marks based on their rank in the class and the gaps between them and the students around them. Top ranked student gets top exam mark as their assessment mark and the bottom ranked student gets the lowest exam mark as their assessment mark. The rest of the marks are determined by the total marks earned in the exam and the gaps between the students. The total marks earned in the exam is the same number of marks that will be allocated to the class for the assessment marks.

3. In other words the student who comes 2nd in the school assessment marks does NOT get the 2nd exam mark, automatically as their assessment mark. If say the gap between the top two students based on the school assessment is 10 marks but in the exam it is 2 the moderated assessment mark will be closer to 10 than 2 to truly reflect the school assessment differences.

4. School ranks have NO bearing on your HSC or UAI. It is the other way around - the school ranks for 2009 will be done AFTER the HSC and UAI have been calculated for 2009.

5. The order of determining these things is:

a) Assessment tasks sat at school
b) School determines rank and gaps between students
c) School sends these marks to the BOS
d) Students sit the HSC external exams
e) HSC marked
f) BOS uses aligned exam marks to determine the school moderated assessment marks keeping in mind the ranks AND gaps sent in by the school.
g) BOS sends marks to UAC to determine UAIs
h) Students issued with HSC marks and UAIs
i) Ranks of schools determined based on the marks of the cohort.


6. Certainly if your cohort is a strong one the chances that you will do well is better but you would do as well in any school, if you put in the effort.

 

[duckcowhybrid]

My smallest class has 19 people. That's Modern History and Maths.

 

[iRuler]

so lets say the person ranked 1 at a school will have a good chance of getting a good result if they mess up the external hsc exam because they will be given the top hsc mark attained in their school?

eg. If you are ranked top and get an internal mark of 98 and in hsc you get a mark of 90... the person ranked tthird gets the higest external mark which is 96, you will be given the average of 98+96 = 97 as your final hsc mark?

also what if you are ranked lets say third? and in hsc you get the top hsc mark from your school, do you keep that top hsc mark? or is that averaged too?

thanks

btw we have a stack of people doing mx1, eco, physics, chem, business etc.. at my school... so we have a large internal cohort.

EDIT: one more thing, when you get your HSC back, does it show the actual mark you got in the exam? or does it show the altered mark with averaging and stuff done to it? or is the averaging stuff actually done only while calculating your UAI?


thanks once again

 

[youngminii]

so lets say the person ranked 1 at a school will have a good chance of getting a good result if they mess up the external hsc exam because they will be given the top hsc mark attained in their school?

eg. If you are ranked top and get an internal mark of 98 and in hsc you get a mark of 90... the person ranked tthird gets the higest external mark which is 96, you will be given the average of 98+96 = 97 as your final hsc mark?

also what if you are ranked lets say third? and in hsc you get the top hsc mark from your school, do you keep that top hsc mark? or is that averaged too?

thanks

btw we have a stack of people doing mx1, eco, physics, chem, business etc.. at my school... so we have a large internal cohort.

EDIT: one more thing, when you get your HSC back, does it show the actual mark you got in the exam? or does it show the altered mark with averaging and stuff done to it? or is the averaging stuff actually done only while calculating your UAI?


thanks once again

The raw mark (actual mark) is never released. The averaging part is for each individual unit, and is done after the moderating and aligning and whatever.
Also your example is wrong. Your internal mark is dictated by the #1 ranker of the external exam. So it'll be 90+96 divided by 2 so your HSC mark would be 93. The marks you get at school are absolutely worthless. Only the ranks and the gaps between the marks (as cem pointed out).

If you came third, your HSC mark + your internal mark (which is moderated) is averaged.
Also, if a person is way too smart or way too dumb compared to the rest of your cohort (an outlier), that person doesn't affect the rest of the cohort in regards to the moderating process.

Edit: Lol got moderating and aligning mixed up. Fixed, thanks cem.

 

[cem]

The raw mark (actual mark) is never released. The averaging part is for each individual unit, and is done after the scaling.
Also your example is wrong. Your internal mark is dictated by the #1 ranker of the external exam. So it'll be 90+96 divided by 2 so your HSC mark would be 93. The marks you get at school are absolutely worthless. Only the ranks and the gaps between the marks (as cem pointed out).

If you came third, your HSC mark + your internal mark (which is aligned) is averaged.
Also, if a person is way too smart or way too dumb compared to the rest of your cohort (an outlier), that person doesn't affect the rest of the cohort in regards to the aligning process.

Just a correction re terms:

aligning is the process done by a group of judge markers to determine what raw mark will be moved to equal the cut-offs for the bands.

moderating is the process done by the BOS using those aligned marks to adjust the school's internal marks

scaling is the process used by UAC to determine the relative weightings of each course when compared to all other courses/units for the UAI - the BOS has nothing to do with scaling at all.

 

[Aquawhite]

Wow, this thread is very informative. The process is quite complicated and touchy. The Queensland Overall Position is much easier than this as the OP is based on assessments through the year a small (close to pointless) end of year exam. All subjects are weighted evenly and ranks and marks are not pulled around... marks matter.

...NSW confuses people.

 

[iRuler]

The raw mark (actual mark) is never released. The averaging part is for each individual unit, and is done after the moderating and aligning and whatever.
Also your example is wrong. Your internal mark is dictated by the #1 ranker of the external exam. So it'll be 90+96 divided by 2 so your HSC mark would be 93. The marks you get at school are absolutely worthless. Only the ranks and the gaps between the marks (as cem pointed out).

If you came third, your HSC mark + your internal mark (which is moderated) is averaged.
Also, if a person is way too smart or way too dumb compared to the rest of your cohort (an outlier), that person doesn't affect the rest of the cohort in regards to the moderating process.

Edit: Lol got moderating and aligning mixed up. Fixed, thanks cem.

Hmm.. so just to be on the safe side, come first!

well hopefully by the end of prelim im near the top of the grade and by half yearlies year 12 i am at the top.. currently im around 5th? well top 10 for sure.. and we have a large cohort.

 

[Aquawhite]

I just got my ranks back for most subjects after the assessment tasks we had! I am yet to do the Year 12 mid-courses for Maths subjects... but I got a nice surprise with first in all the subjects that I got results for... even English.

I'm ecstatic.