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Schools seek university entrance data (1 Viewer)

Lazarus

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What are your thoughts?

<hr>
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/12/1055220708893.html

Schools seek university entrance data

By Gerard Noonan, Education Editor
June 13 2003


Private school principals want universities to supply them with their students' Universities Admissions Index, but they are still wary of the information being used to create "league tables" of school performance.

A meeting of the Association of Heads of Independent Schools of Australia has called on the Universities Admissions Centre to release UAIs to each school.

But they opposed a move to make UAIs more publicly available through newspapers.

At present the centre makes the admission data available only to individual students. Schools in NSW are prevented by law from gaining access to the UAI data and have to rely on the co-operation and honesty of their year 12 students to call in when they have finished their exams.

David Mumford, president of the heads' association, said the schools sought the information to improve their diagnosis of results.

Mr Mumford said schools did not want to get involved in the publication of league tables. "It's a hot issue, the use by the media of league tables," he said. "In the UK it's become just appalling, with final year school results published like soccer league tables with division one and two and so on. It doesn't help anyone and focuses on just one of the many measures of a school."

The head of SCEGGS Darlinghurst, Jenny Allum, said the UAI was a passport for students who intended to undertake further education beyond school.

"Parents, teachers and the educational community have a vital interest in understanding the UAI and helping students to do their best in the UAI stakes," she said.

However there was not even a school representative on the technical committee which was responsible for calculating the UAI, despite the fact that students, parents and schools were expected to accept the outcome.

In Victoria, it was accepted that schools were represented on the equivalent committee.

"Assessment authorities should not demand that schools accept the 'correctness' of an aggregating procedure when they deny schools the information they need to evaluate it," Ms Allum said.

The executive director of the admissions centre, Andrew Stanton, yesterday acknowledged he had received the request from the school principals. "Ultimately it's a decision for the Minister for Education," he said.

Up to eight years ago, the UAI results were made available to schools by the NSW Board of Studies but the government made it illegal for the board or any statutory body from releasing details after newspaper publicity about the Mt Druitt High School class of 1996, which collectively had the weakest results in the state.

The Minister for Education, Andrew Refshauge, said last night he would consider the approach by the schools.

"However I would need to be convinced this information would not be used to compile league tables," he said.
 

Lazarus

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The relevant legislation:

<blockquote>FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT 1989 - SCHEDULE 2
SCHEDULE Schedule 2 - Exempt bodies and offices

...

The Department of Training and Education Co-ordinationfunctions relating to the storing of, reporting on or analysis of information with respect to the ranking or assessment of students who have completed the Higher School Certificate for entrance into tertiary institutions.

Universitiesfunctions relating to dealing with information with respect to the ranking or assessment of students who have completed the Higher School Certificate for entrance into tertiary institutions.

...</blockquote>
The only reported case to have challenged this:

<blockquote>Stephanie Raethel v Director General, Department of Education and Training [1999] NSWADT 108</blockquote>
 

Survivor39

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What's the harm of providing the UAI results to school anyway?
The UAC don't have to provide the info to the media so there won't be a league table published ect.
 

Newbie

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i dont mind schools getting our uais
i dont even mind if its released like a league table
it sure beats the crap outta dodgy estimates from inexperienced advisers at school
 

Twintip

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Originally posted by Cyph
David Mumford, president of the heads' association, said the schools sought the information to improve their diagnosis of results.

Why don't HSC results suffice to do this? Percentages of people in each band are published.
That way is dodgy, because schools who may perform solidly (ie: have a 'high' average UAI) mightn't necessarily get a lot of band 6 achievers in each subject (or merit list people/top-of-the-state people/100 people either for that matter).

This method only reflects on the top students in any given year, completely ignoring how the majority of the state actually performs (which should be the most important thing).

The newspapers should be able to publish the average UAI's of each school. It is the fairest way of comparing schools, their present methods of comparing results clearly favour certain types of schools over others (eg: those with enrichment programs for the top 20% of students in the year but who leave the remaining 80% of the year to do comparatively poorly in 'regular' schooling).
 

kini mini

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I think that concern over league tables is misplaced. If UAIs are released, someone somewhere will compile a table. It will then be published, and some schools will crow. Some schools will whine, some will hire spin doctors, all will come under pressure from parents.

But how is this different from what already happens? As it stands, people are busily using all kinds of metrics for school performance from the number of students on the Premier's Award lists to the number of band 6/E4 results achieved by students. Schools are still being compared, and always will be so long as people believe that schools can influence their students' results. People draw conclusions about the relative strength of schools based on this which are not necessarily any better or worse than the conclusions they drew from the TER.

I don't mean to say that having data on UAIs will add greatly to the understanding of your average parent or student. Cynic that I am after nine months on this forum, I can't envisage the average tense and worried student and their parents, or more importantly your average talkback radio host and newspaper columnist, making rational decisions from any given piece of information. There is some benefit from releasing UAIs - for better or for worse it is the one number that determines your entrance to university. Whether it is a fair summary of your education up to the end of year 12 is a completely different question, but it's clearly a critical one.

I can't agree with the public policy arguments raised by the Dep of Ed in Stephanie Raethel v Director General, Department of Education and Training. Essentially the intention of the government was to prevent people drawing any kind of conclusions from results by taking these results away. Cynically again, I think we can definitely credit the Mt Druitt fiasco for this. Surely if people are making stupid conclusions, it is the height of patronism to throw up your hands and remove that information rather than trying to communicate its true significance.

If UAIs are to be used to compare schools, I think the best way is for schools to publish tables like the Grammar one where the number of people in each percentile is given. You can clearly see, for example, that 2002 was an awful year for people after the top 50. This solves the problem described by Twintip where the relatively weak results of some can be hidden. I think that such discrepancies can arise for all sorts of reasons, including those mentioned.
 

Minai

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Hmm
In my opinion, a less controversial, but I suppose slightly less accurate way of schools discovering student's UAI's is to purchase the UAISeeker and use that in conjuntion with the HSC marks they have been given.
 

Minai

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Originally posted by Cyph
That's a lot of combinations of subjects they need!
Well, thats the opportunity cost of wanting to kno the UAI's! :p
Private schools would most certainly afford it, I mean $15 per student out of their already exorbitant school fees is reasonable - and the private schools are the ones complaining about the UAI thing anyway
 

Lazarus

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Originally posted by Cyph
Twintip, UAIs are a direct result of HSC results.
Well, actually, no. UAIs are the direct result of raw marks. Schools are given aligned marks. There's no link between aligned marks and UAIs. Schools (and everyone else) are left to guess at overall student performance by fumbling about with the few statistics they're given.
 

MiuMiu

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Leave it how it is. My school can get fucked. Im hoping for quite a good UAI but either way, my university entrance score is none of their business, its for me and UAC to look at. Of course I'll tell a few of my teachers but Im not going to go up to the school and say 'I got this UAI'.
 

MiuMiu

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yeah Im not worried bout that, Im just not going to go up and formally write down or whatever 'this is what I got'
 

Lazarus

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Originally posted by Cyph
Laz, if you want to get technical about it. Aligned HSC marks are a direct result from raw marks. Makes no difference, it works empircally and schools don't even bother explaining the system to you. :D
It does make a difference, or I wouldn't have mentioned it...

raw marks -> convoluted process A -> aligned marks
raw marks -> convoluted process B -> UAI

UAIs are measures of overall relative performance. Sure, schools can see whether they did well in maths, or english, or a particular area. They have no idea how they went overall though. They have to guess.
 

Newbie

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the question is........are the two convoluted processes the same? :confused:
 

Lazarus

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Originally posted by Newbie
the question is........are the two convoluted processes the same? :confused:
no. :) one is aligning and one is scaling. the exact technicalities aren't relevant to this discussion; it need only be known that they are different.
 

iambored

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hmmm i don't know
in the end the number of ban6s doesn't matter, but the uai does, because that's what counts. well thats what i think. so i don't know.
 

RJ

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In January of 2002 after the first lot of "new" UAIs came out, my school hosted a BBQ for the old Year 12s whereby if they told the teachers their UAI, they got a free sausage. It was a miserable flop, so they didn't do it again, but I thought it was pretty funny anyway!
 

Benno

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is this all the "aligning" is

2002 results
Subject- Class mark- exam mark- HSC mark

Maths 77 79 78


the HSC mark being the aliegned mark?
 

1986

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I completed year twelve at a catholic girls shcool. My friends and I have decided not to infrom our school's heirarchy of our UAIs due to the ammount of unwarranted pressure they have placed upon us to achieve "BAND 6" in 2003. In my experience, principals enter the educational sector to satisfy career expectations. To these men and women, UAIs are valued only on publication potential, rather than a key to tertiary education or a measure of the ammount of blood, sweat and the degree of a student's social life that was sacrificed to achieve longer-term life goals.

Teachers, on the other hand, who individually put significant effort into assisting stressed students during their final year at high school, in most cases deserve to know thier student's UAIs. These are the people who genuinely care.

Schools should not be hasstleing UAC or the State Governement to change rule or privacy legislation. If they instead focus on developing a healthy and honest relationship with their students, there would be no problems in the communication of this information.
 

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