The Creatine Supplement Debate (1 Viewer)

[hYperTrOphY]

Drink lots of water afterwards, im talking more than 1.5 litres, and have a banana before you go to bed that night. This will help in the re-building (ie. growth) of the muscles.

DO NOT have a banana after you workout! Fructose is no good after weight training. You want plenty of water, with dextrose, maltodextrin and sodium.

Some supplements I recommend are weigh protean powder. Theoretically you should be having it instead of meals, but thats really only subtable if you work out like, 5 times a week or more. I find it good just to have before bed after you've had a work out. Drink too much without the apropriate amuont of exercise and you will get protean pimples on your arms, which scar.

WTF are you talking about?? Protein powder should not be used to have "instead of meals". It is a supplement. It is designed to supplement a solid diet. If you are weight training you need quite a lot of protein - approx 3g per kilogram of bodyweight everyday. Protein powder is used to ensure you are getting enough, its not to drink every meal! Your protein sources should mostly come from whole foods such as chicken breast, steak and tuna. Also, I would like to see some scientific evidence of this reaction you call "protein pimples"??

Another one you can try is Creatin Monohydrate. Be careful with this, again, if you are not working out more than 5 times a week, you would only take it before a workout. I have a few friends who can't take it because their body seems to have a disagreement with it.

Creatine is an excellent supplement for those who go to the gym, and wish to gain mass. Once again, I'm not sure where you get your information... but it's wrong. When you start supplementing with creatine, you must load, which means taking about 20-25g per day (broken into 4-5 5g servings) for about a week. Then, you take 5g in the morning and 5g after you workout.
Your friend's body has a "disagreement with it" does it? Quite strange since creatine is found naturally in the body, and in the food we eat!

 

[Cab31]

DO NOT have a banana after you workout! Fructose is no good after weight training. You want plenty of water, with dextrose, maltodextrin and sodium.



WTF are you talking about?? Protein powder should not be used to have "instead of meals". It is a supplement. It is designed to supplement a solid diet. If you are weight training you need quite a lot of protein - approx 3g per kilogram of bodyweight everyday. Protein powder is used to ensure you are getting enough, its not to drink every meal! Your protein sources should mostly come from whole foods such as chicken breast, steak and tuna. Also, I would like to see some scientific evidence of this reaction you call "protein pimples"??



Creatine is an excellent supplement for those who go to the gym, and wish to gain mass. Once again, I'm not sure where you get your information... but it's wrong. When you start supplementing with creatine, you must load, which means taking about 20-25g per day (broken into 4-5 5g servings) for about a week. Then, you take 5g in the morning and 5g after you workout.
Your friend's body has a "disagreement with it" does it? Quite strange since creatine is found naturally in the body, and in the food we eat!

The long term effects of Creatine (supplimentation) are yet to be known. Its linked with heart problems, and the key principle behind the 'mass' that you gain is that the muscle gets bigger because it takes in more water. The more water present in the muscle, the lesser the performance inhibiting effects of Lactic acid (because it can be 'flushed out' with greater ease). This is why proffessional sports people use the suppliment. It doesnt make you stronger - but it will make your muscles bigger and aid in anaerobic events.
Please dont start typing in misleading information about taking doses of this suppliment - as i said the effects are relatively unknown - but they are linked with heart disease. There are people that dont know any better than to beleive that information that you posted and i would hate to think that they are doing themselves some damage by it.

 

[hYperTrOphY]

Those dosages are correct, and I can support whatever I say with hundreds of references if you wish?

 

[Cab31]

Those dosages are correct, and I can support whatever I say with hundreds of references if you wish?

I didnt mean that the information was incorrect. I meant that taking this suppliment is suspected to induce heart failure. There is 'free creatine' that is naturally found in the heart - as oposed to creatine-phosphate found in muscles. While the muscles can deal with the additional creatine suppliments, some scientists have suggested that the heart can not. And when Supplimentation ceases, there are adverse heart problems. Again i am not trying to tell you you are wrong. I am just telling everyone to be careful.

 

[mr_speedy]

i think its stupid for a begginer to take a suplement like creatine..... the have to start using weights first, get used to it all and everything. then once they become accustomed to it, start researching.

also creatine is not good on the kidneys... have to drink a lot of water when taking it...

 

[Cab31]

Exactly. It really concerns me that there are people out there taking these suppliments when they:
(a) Don't understand what they do
(b) Don't understand the doses
(c) Don't need to take the suppliments as they are beginners

thanks mr speedy for summing that up

 

[hYperTrOphY]

Here is an extract from "Creatine: A Meta Analysis" by Joe 'Yu Yevon" King

Safety of Creatine Supplementation

This subject is of utmost importance to athletes supplementing with creatine. It is important to note that the safety of creatine has been constantly skewed by the media who is ignorant of creatine’s effects on the human body. The effectiveness and relative safety of creatine is dependent on water intake. While supplementing with creatine, an athlete should drink water constantly throughout the day to improve its effectiveness and to stave off possible ill-effects such as nausea, stomach cramps and dehydration. With proper water intake, these symptoms will be eliminated.

More significantly, creatine is being used to treat disease. Major achievements made over the last several years have highlighted the important roles of creatine and the creatine kinase reaction in health and disease. Wyss (2002) investigated creatine’s effects on certain diseases and concluded that oral creatine supplementation improved the clinical symptoms in both AGAT and GAMT deficiency, which cause mental retardation. In addition, creatine supplementation displayed neuroprotective effects in several animal models of neurological disease, such as Huntington's disease, Parkinson's disease, and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. All these findings pinpoint to a close correlation between the functional capacity of the creatine kinase/phosphorylcreatine/creatine system and proper brain function. They also offer a starting-point for novel means of delaying neurodegenerative disease, and for strengthening memory function and intellectual capabilities. Finally, creatine biosynthesis has been postulated as a major effecter of homocysteine concentration in the plasma, which has been identified as an independent graded risk factor for atherosclerotic disease. By decreasing homocysteine production, oral creatine supplementation may, thus, also lower the risk for developing coronary heart disease or cerebrovascular disease.

Taes et al. (2003) investigated the claim that creatine damages the kidneys. Taes and colleagues investigated the effect of prolonged creatine ingestion on renal function in animals with normal kidney function or pre-existing kidney failure. Results indicate that no detrimental effects of creatine supplementation on the renal function were observed. No differences were observed in insulin or creatinine clearance rates. Serum creatine and intramuscular total creatine concentrations were higher in creatine-supplemented groups. Creatine supplementation at a dosage of 2% w/w for 4 weeks does not impair kidney function in animals with pre-existing renal failure or in control animals.

These results agreed with Farquhar (2002) who stated, “despite relatively few isolated reports of renal dysfunction in persons taking creatine, the studies completed to date suggest that in normal healthy individuals the kidneys are able to excrete creatine, and its end product creatinine, in a manner that does not adversely alter renal function.”

Brudnak (2004) states that negative reports have been made of possible side effects of creatine supplementation, such as muscle cramping during exercise, and potential impurities. These effects can be minimized or eliminated entirely with proper water intake.

Also......

Long-Term Effects of Creatine

Many ignorant critics of creatine are quick to suggest that there are no long-term studies conducted on creatine supplementation and use this straw man fallacy to state that long-term creatine supplementation is not safe. In fact, there are many long term studies on creatine that have been conducted, all with positive endorsements for its use.

Mayhew et al. (2002) investigated creatine’s long-term effects on liver and kidney function. Twenty-three members of an NCAA Division II American football with at least two years of strength training experience were divided into a creatine monohydrate group in which they voluntarily and spontaneously ingested creatine, and a control in which they took no supplements. Individuals in the creatine monohydrate group averaged regular daily consumption of 5 to 20 g for 0.25 to 5.6 years. Venous blood analysis for serum albumin, alkaline phosphatase, alanine aminotransferase, aspartate aminotransferase, bilirubin, urea, and creatinine produced no significant differences between groups. Creatinine clearance was estimated from serum creatinine and was not significantly different between groups. Within the creatine monohydrate group, correlations between all blood parameters and either daily dosage or duration of supplementation were nont significant. Therefore, it appears that oral supplementation with creatine monohydrate has no long-term detrimental effects on kidney or liver functions in highly trained college athletes in the absence of other nutritional supplements.

Derave et al. (2003) studied creatine’s long-term efficiency. Recent findings in healthy humans indicate that the beneficial effect on muscle function and muscle total creatine content may disappear when creatine is continuously ingested for more than two or three months. The mechanism for this habituation to chronic creatine exposure is poorly understood and subsequently unverified.

Kreider et al. (2003) states that long-term creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes. This study examined the effects of long-term creatine supplementation on a 69-item panel of serum, whole blood, and urinary markers of clinical health status in athletes. Over a 21-month period, 98 Division IA college football players were administered in an open label manner creatine or non-creatine containing supplements following training sessions. Subjects who ingested creatine were administered 15.75 g/day of creatine monohydrate for 5 days and an average of 5 g/day thereafter in 5-10 g/day doses. Fasting blood and 24-h urine samples were collected at 0, 1, 1.5, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17, and 21 months of training. A comprehensive quantitative clinical chemistry panel was determined on serum and whole blood samples (metabolic markers, muscle and liver enzymes, electrolytes, lipid profiles, hematological markers, and lymphocytes). In addition, urine samples were quantitatively and qualitative analyzed to assess clinical status and renal function. Results revealed no significant differences among groups in the 54-item panel of quantitative blood and urine markers assessed. Univariate analysis revealed no clinically significant interactions among groups in markers of clinical status. In addition, no apparent differences were observed among groups in the 15-item panel of qualitative urine markers. Results indicate that long-term creatine supplementation (up to 21-months) does not appear to adversely effect markers of health status in athletes undergoing intense training in comparison to athletes who do not take creatine.

Schroder et al. (2004) used 18 professional basketball players of the first Spanish Basketball League. The participants ingested 5g of creatine monohydrate daily during three competition seasons. Blood was collected in the morning after an overnight fast, five times during each of the three official competition seasons. The results indicate that long-term (3-years) creatine monohydrate supplementation does not produce measurable abnormalities within the 16 clinical tests performed on the athletes.

It has been shown time and time again that there are no long-term adverse effects of creatine supplementation.

 

[mr_speedy]

nice find

also causes mood swings....

 

[hYperTrOphY]

and here's an extract from: Creatine Supplementation in Athletes: Review
by Mark A. Jenkins, MD




you can find both sides to the argument...

also in regards to dosages:

the dosage depends on your body weight, and whether you are in the load phase or the maintenance phase.

a one-size-fits-all sort of dosage regimen is incorrect

The extract I provided shows that a long term study HAS infact been undertaken!
The other 'side effects' outlined as possibilities in your article ARE acknowledged, but as explained, are easily avoided, as long as you have adequate water intake.

Here is the resource list for the article I presented:

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Almada A, Kreider R, Ferreira M, Wilson M, Grindstaff P, Plisk S, Reinhardy J, Cantler E. Effects of calcium ß-HMB supplementation with or without creatine during training on strength and sprint capacity. FASEB J 1997

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Derave W, Eijnde BO, Verbessem P, Ramaekers M, Van Leemputte M, Richter EA, Hespel P. Combined creatine and protein supplementation in conjunction with resistance training promotes muscle GLUT-4 content and glucose tolerance in humans. J Appl Physiol. 2003 May;94(5):1910-6. Epub 2003 Jan 10.



Derave, Bert O. Eijnde, Patricia Verbessem, Monique Ramaekers, Mark Van Leemputte, Erik A. Richter, and Peter Hespel. Combined creatine and protein supplementation in conjunction with resistance training promotes muscle GLUT-4 content and glucose tolerance in humans. J Appl Physiol, May 2003; 94: 1910 - 1916.



Doherty M, Smith PM, Davison RC, Hughes MG. Caffeine is ergogenic after supplementation of oral creatine monohydrate. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Nov;34(11):1785-92.



Earnest, Anthony L. Almada and Tedd L. Mitchell. 1997: Effects of Creatine Monohydrate Ingestion on Intermediate Duration Anaerobic Treadmill Running to Exhaustion. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 11, No. 4, pp. 234–238.



Eckerson, Joan M., Jeffrey R. Stout, Geri A. Moore, Nancy J. Stone, Kami Nishimura and Kristie Tamura. 2004: Effect of Two and Five Days of Creatine Loading on Anaerobic Working Capacity in Women. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 18, No. 1, pp. 168–173.



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Eijnde BO, Van Leemputte M, Goris M, Labarque V, Taes Y, Verbessem P, Vanhees L, Ramaekers M, Vanden Eynde B, Van Schuylenbergh R, Dom R, Richter EA, Hespel P. Effects of creatine supplementation and exercise training on fitness in men 55-75 yr old. J Appl Physiol. 2003 Aug;95(2):818-28. Epub 2003 Mar 28.



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Kirksey, Michael H. Stone, Beverly J. Warren, Robert L. Johnson, M. Stone, G. G. Haff, F. E. Williams and C. Proulx. 1999: The Effects of 6 Weeks of Creatine Monohydrate Supplementation on Performance Measures and Body Composition in Collegiate Track and Field Athletes. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 13, No. 2, pp. 148–156.



Kleiner, Michael E. Worley and Daniel L. Blessing. 1996: Creatine Kinase Response to Various Protocols of Resistance Exercise. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 10, No. 1, pp. 15–19.



Kocak S, Karli U. Effects of high dose oral creatine supplementation on anaerobic capacity of elite wrestlers. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2003 Dec;43(4):488-92.



Korzun WJ. Oral creatine supplements lower plasma homocysteine concentrations in humans. Clin Lab Sci. 2004 Spring;17(2):102-6.



Kreider RB. Effects of creatine supplementation on performance and training adaptations. Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):89-94.



Kreider PhD. 1995: The Effect of Creatine Loading on Muscular Strength and Body Compostion. Strength and Conditioning: Vol. 17, No. 5, pp. 72–73.



Kreider RB, Melton C, Rasmussen CJ, Greenwood M, Lancaster S, Cantler EC, Milnor P, Almada AL. Long-term creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes. Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):95-104.



Kurosawa Y, Hamaoka T, Katsumura T, Kuwamori M, Kimura N, Sako T, Chance B. Creatine supplementation enhances anaerobic ATP synthesis during a single 10 sec maximal handgrip exercise. Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):105-12.



Kutz MR, Gunter MJ. Creatine monohydrate supplementation on body weight and percent body fat. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov;17(4):817-21.



Larson-Meyer, G. R. Hunter, C. A. Trowbridge, J. C. Turk, J. M. Ernest, S. L. Torman and P. A. Harbin.. 2000: The Effect of Creatine Supplementation on Muscle Strength and Body Composition During Off-Season Training in Female Soccer Players. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 14, No. 4, pp. 434–442.



Lawler JM, Barnes WS, Wu G, Song W, Demaree S. Direct antioxidant properties of creatine. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2002 Jan 11;290(1):47-52.



Ledford and J. D. Branch. 1999: Creatine Supplementation Does Not Increase Peak Power Production and Work Capacity During Repetitive Wingate Testing in Women. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 13, No. 4, pp. 394–399.



Lehmkhl M, Malone M, Justice B, Trone G, Pistilli E, Vinci D, Haff EE, Kilgore JL, Haff GG. The effects of 8 weeks of creatine monohydrate and glutamine supplementation on body composition and performance measures. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Aug;17(3):425-38.



Lemon PW. Dietary creatine supplementation and exercise performance: why inconsistent results? Can J Appl Physiol. 2002 Dec;27(6):663-81.



Louis M, Poortmans JR, Francaux M, Hultman E, Berre J, Boisseau N, Young VR, Smith K, Meier-Augenstein W, Babraj JA, Waddell T, Rennie MJ. Creatine supplementation has no effect on human muscle protein turnover at rest in the postabsorptive or fed states. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Apr;284(4):E764-70. Epub 2002 Dec 10.



Louis M, Poortmans JR, Francaux M, Berre J, Boisseau N, Brassine E, Cuthbertson DJ, Smith K, Babraj JA, Waddell T, Rennie MJ. No effect of creatine supplementation on human myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis after resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Nov;285(5):E1089-94. Epub 2003 Jun 24.



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Rosene JM, Whitman SA, Fogarty TD. A Comparison of Thermoregulation With Creatine Supplementation Between the Sexes in a Thermoneutral Environment. J Athl Train. 2004 Mar;39(1):50-55.



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Roy BD, Bourgeois JM, Mahoney DJ, Tarnopolsky MA. Dietary supplementation with creatine monohydrate prevents corticosteroid-induced attenuation of growth in young rats. Can J Physiol Pharmacol. 2002 Oct;80(10):1008-14.



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Selsby, Robert A. DiSilvestro and Steven T. Devor. 2004: Mg2+-Creatine Chelate and a Low-Dose Creatine Supplementation Regimen Improve Exercise Performance. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 18, No. 2, pp. 311–315.



Snow RJ, Murphy RM. Factors influencing creatine loading into human skeletal muscle. Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 2003 Jul;31(3):154-8.



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Stanton and G. A. Abt. 2000: Creatine Monohydrate Use Among Elite Australian Power Lifters. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 14, No. 3, pp. 322–327.



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Sutherland S. Creatine as a neuroprotector. Drug Discov Today. 2004 Sep 15;9(18):776.



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Syrotuik DG, Game AB, Gillies EM, Bell GJ. Effects of creatine monohydrate supplementation during combined strength and high intensity rowing training on performance. Can J Appl Physiol. 2001 Dec;26(6):527-42.



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[mr_speedy]

hahaha a long term study is like 10 years +

and considering creatinne has only been freely avaiable on the market since the mid 90s..........

 

[hYperTrOphY]

I just showed Joe Yu Yevon King that article, and this is what he said:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Creatine phosphate is actually produced and stored by the kidneys and liver. So.... If the body is receiving an external supply of creatine, it will automatically shut down all production


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Countless studies have shown that creatine does not do this. Creatine is not "produced" in the body, it is synthesized.

Many people confuse the "on/off switch" of creatine to work on the same mechanism as testosterone. Endogenous testosterone production is halted when exogenous testosterone is introduced into the system. But this is due to the negative feedback mechanism which acts hormonally on gonadotropins, which supresses natural testosterone production. This negative feedback system does not exist for creatine.

To make sure we're clear, let me reiderate: Creatine supplementation will not hinder natural creatine synthesis in the body. It is a physiological impossability for it to do so.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This will create a condition, chemical dependency, making creatine a DRUG


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not at all. In fact, creatine is not located on any Drug Schedule in any state. By comparrison, steroids are a Schedule III drug.

Creatine is not a drug in any way, shape or form. Nor does any government agency recognize it as such.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Later down the line, you'll experience kidney and liver damage. Why? Because the by-product of creatine, creatinine, is similar to uric acid, it is a toxin. When too much builds up, it puts stress on these two organs.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Again, this is simply not correct. In fact, it has been shown that creatine enhances renal function. And on top of that, creatine is now being used to investigate alternative treatments to spinal cord injuries!

 

[hYperTrOphY]

Yu Yevon is a nickname, taken from FF.

"Administrator of Hyperplasia Research
Writer for the Journal of Hyperplasia Research"
is what he claims to be...
sounds impressive...
but the Journal of Hyperplasia Research is not a scientific journal

please ppl, when researching a supplement, check the credentials of the person whos advice you are taking.

I know who he is.
He is a scientist and bodybuilder. He almost has his PhD also.

I may also add, that it is irrelevent as to who HE is. More importantly are the people of whom he gets his information. (Refer to resource list above).

Anyway, I dont want to 'debate' any longer. It is up to the individual as to whom they believe. If you dont want to believe this person because the Journal that he writes for (which is absolutely amazing I may add) is not - in your opinion a scientific journal - that is your choice.

 

[hYperTrOphY]

ok if you dont wish to debate anylonger, then please dont feel like you have to (i was actually about to split this into a separate thread, "the creatine debate" as it's interesting to see other people's opinions on these subjects because peoples opinions are all different due to different backgrounds and socialisation.
..all this thread is about is allowing people to see both sides to the story - to learn that there's more to taking a supplement then just hearing one good thing about it and taking it. It's about researchign that supplement and ensuring you are getting valid information from valid sources in order to make the best decision FOR YOU possible.

Most people's opinion is irrelevent though. Their opinion has most likely been formed by their next door neighbour's cousin who went to the gym and some big guy told him something.

I guess it's impossible to get rid of all the myths and enlighten all ignorant people, but at least those at ABCbodybuilding will be 'in the know'...

 

[hYperTrOphY]

I'm glad that you are so optimistic about the intelligence of the average person.

I doubt many people will jump into this debate. My main reason for believeing so is because actual scientific information has been presented, and most people argue only with mere generalisations and uneducated 'opinions'.

 

[mr_speedy]

the only supplement i would recommend for a begginer is protein. musashi p40 is my fav.

 

[mr_speedy]

huh you take protein? how come?

 

[Tommy_69]

take NO supplements with creatine it works well. I personally use BSN Nitrix along with creatine. works great

 

[hYperTrOphY]

And as for Creatine....

The general consensus is that it is safe. If it wasn't safe, it would face the same restrictions as juice, prohormones etc. The Pharmaceutical Goods Administration considers it safe, so I consider it safe. I'm happy with it. I've actually cycled off it for the past two weeks, starting back on it tommorow.

As have I. I'll be loading again as of tomorrow.

 

[Cab31]

As have I. I'll be loading again as of tomorrow.

can i ask you what exactly you are loading for? Are you an athlete or something?

 

[hYperTrOphY]

I'm loading because I have been off creatine for a while unfortunately. Thus, I must load for 5 days before maintaining.
You probably wouldn't class me as an "athlete" I dont think...
I don't compete in any sport, but I do train 7 days a week, so I still class myself as an athlete. I train and diet like an athlete.