The legitimacy of depression as an illness. (1 Viewer)

[Iron]

nah

/excommunicatez

 

[blue_chameleon]

Thread needs less anecdotes and more empirically supported facts. Both sides.

 

[Iron]

I dont think so.
It's interesting to see people's instinct opinion on the matter, uncluttered by any facts. We all get blue and ponder the worth of our salt. We all have a strong reaction to individuals who no longer hear the music. This is about the most genuine discussion we can have on the value of life - our own. At what point do we cross the line that sustains our day-to-day activity and conclude that there is no reason to carry on?
I find the religious implications interesting, but death is pretty fascinating by itself

 

[KFunk]

Thread needs less anecdotes and more empirically supported facts. Both sides.

Note, though, that "What is the definition of illness?" is not an empirical question. It is also one which is central to this debate. Once a suitable definition is provided we can appeal to evidence to help determine whether certain entities satisfy the definition (though this is more difficult if the definition includes things like social or moral norms).

 

[dieburndie]

I have no idea what the motivation is for some of you people to have such a strong opinion about something you evidently know very little about.

Yes, there are attention seekers, hypochondriacs and people who mistake regular low moods for depression. Therefore people with a chemical imbalance often resulting in the complete inability to function in their day to day lives should be told to "harden the fuck up", as opposed to getting treatment for their condition?

If you honestly believe that depression at a moderate to severe level is simply a choice, please explain what grounds, AT ALL, you have to make that claim.

And no, "I felt sad once and then I felt better, so everyone should be like me" doesn't cut it.

 

[blue_chameleon]

I dont think so.
It's interesting to see people's instinct opinion on the matter, uncluttered by any facts. We all get blue and ponder the worth of our salt. We all have a strong reaction to individuals who no longer hear the music. This is about the most genuine discussion we can have on the value of life - our own.

Fair call.

Note, though, that "What is the definition of illness?" is not an empirical question. It is also one which is central to this debate. Once a suitable definition is provided we can appeal to evidence to help determine whether certain entities satisfy the definition (though this is more difficult if the definition includes things like social or moral norms).

Is the definition of '[mental] illness' a constant, or is it subjective based on the individual? "If I could handle you're life, then you should be able to handle it too" tends to be the general rebuttal to existence of mental health issues like depression.

It's easy to say that if you have a snapped femur, then you have a broken leg. But I have often wondered what 'symptoms' doctors look for in diagnosing whether patients have mental illness, and how they determine severity. Obviously, each persons capacity to deal with situations/events are going to differ compared to the next person.

EDIT: I was going to make the point that whilst a broken leg is [usually] visible, mental health issues are rarely. But then again, seeing "high flyers" with successful careers and no reason (or time) to feel sorry for themselves, head down through a rapid transformation in personality for no (apparent) reasoning, I realised that maybe to those that are watching, mental illness is just as visible as the broken leg.

 

[blue_chameleon]

Lock this fucking thread

?

NS dead atm?

 

[blue_chameleon]

Can't post in NS. Have legitimate argument. Far too refreshed.

This thread is insulting to the memories of dead people that I know, or something.

To question the legitimacy of a condition that quite literally makes you joyous at the concept of no longer being alive makes light of something that thousands of people suffer through.

This detracts from the will of those trying to prove to people that are suffering with depression that they can exist and obtain joy from society. This thread tells people that are having serious problems, "Well you should just harden up". Which won't occur, people will just think "Hey you're right the world would be better off without me."

Hell uncool, but hey, freedom must ring on.

Those who get upset a bit and claim to have depression deserve the full might of scorn poured upon them. Those who legitimately consistently contemplate their own annihilation and wish for it as a manner of catharsis deserve every gram of support we can offer them.

Believe me, I understand where you are coming from. But locking threads and ignoring the [obvious] debate doesn't educate anyone.

It's a difficult issue, I agree with you on that. But this isn't about freedom anymore than it is about education.

 

[Hagaren]

Can't post in NS. Have legitimate argument. Far too refreshed.

This thread is insulting to the memories of dead people that I know, or something.

To question the legitimacy of a condition that quite literally makes you joyous at the concept of no longer being alive makes light of something that thousands of people suffer through.

This detracts from the will of those trying to prove to people that are suffering with depression that they can exist and obtain joy from society. This thread tells people that are having serious problems, "Well you should just harden up". Which won't occur, people will just think "Hey you're right the world would be better off without me."

Hell uncool, but hey, freedom must ring on.

Those who get upset a bit and claim to have depression deserve the full might of scorn poured upon them. Those who legitimately consistently contemplate their own annihilation and wish for it as a manner of catharsis deserve every gram of support we can offer them.

Lock this thread hey...

You really are an idiot. In this thread i have asked a question to gauge a public response to peoples thoughts on depression today and i think the general consensus is that most people treat anyone who claims to have it with a certain amount of suspicion, I too am one of these people (to an extent anyway...)

I don't wholly disbelieve in that for some people depression is a serious issue that is in need of medical attention. I do however, believe that a lot of people are taking advantage of the situation by claiming depression when clearly they do not suffer from it. Due to the personal nature of the illness and other various factors it makes it often difficult to distinguish between those really in need and those who are just throwing a label on themselves to make up for their shortcomings.

I hardly see how discussing this in anyway should result in this thread being locked, If this thread was full off people showing understanding for depression i doubt you would have reacted as you have but it is important to consider that peoples opinions are more likely to remain the same if they aren't discussed openly than if they are. Giving them other possibilities to consider in terms of their approach can only be a good thing.

 

[Graney]

I don't have a problem with the legitimacy of depression. It's potentially as serious and life threatening as any other condition, physical or mental. I just think it might be overdiagnosed.

The widespread diagnosis and labelling as an "illness" turns people into victims, which I say not out of contempt for those suffering, but rather concern for how it may influence people to feel it's not something they can be proactive about.

'Illness', to me at least, has connotations of a medical condition which with the right therapy can be overcome, cured, defeated. The labelling of depression as an "illness" is, I believe, medicalising something which is an inherent part of many people's personalities. I think, as sad as it is, to exist in a permanent state of sadness and despair, is possibly something that falls within the normal variations of human personality and existence.

Which in no way lessens the need to take depression seriously, and the need for assistance and treatment, but perhaps calls for a look at the idea of depression as an illness, and the way we think about it.

If it's part of the normal spectrum of human personalities, that would suggest the need for a shift in care strategies, looking at helping people manage, accept and live with their issues, rather than the focus on pills and whatnot now.

I'm struggling with the definition of "illness". I had ideas about illness meaning something of a reasonable degree of severity (which obviously has issues of measurability and classification), but I may be mistaken. Is the common cold, the meekest of viruses, typically thought of as an illness? Not that I'm comparing a cold to depression in severity or any other terms, I simply want a reference.

 

[Hagaren]

I apologise but you aren't allowed to think such thoughts because apparently this thread should be locked as it is useless and offends people (its probably people thinking like this which leads to such a misconstrued understanding of what depression is)...

 

[Graney]

I don't question the legitimacy of depression. I question the legitimacy of it as an illness, in every case where it's diagnosed.

I think many cases possibly lie within the normal spectrum of human personalities. Any personality that society finds inconvenient and challenging is fobbed off as an illness and drugged up to put them out of the way, rather than dealing with them as real people with problems that are confronting and hard to deal with.

Witness the undeniable problems with ADD diagnosis among young boys, and 'social anxiety disorder'.

 

[blue_chameleon]

I don't wholly disbelieve in that for some people depression is a serious issue that is in need of medical attention. I do however, believe that a lot of people are taking advantage of the situation by claiming depression when clearly they do not suffer from it. Due to the personal nature of the illness and other various factors it makes it often difficult to distinguish between those really in need and those who are just throwing a label on themselves to make up for their shortcomings.

I agree with you to an extent. But it's certainly not black and white here. You have to remember that depression ranges in severity and differs from person to person. Where it becomes an 'illness' is inherently unclear.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that there are a wealth of benefits to be gained from feigning depression. If anything, it's more of a hindrance for the majority of people. For example, depression is often frowned upon as being 'weak' in the professional world, so rather than openly admit problems, there are those that either don't want to acknowledge the problem full stop or are in denial about it because they are scared of how they will be perceived in the workforce.

I understand your views, but personally i'm more concerned about making sure those that are at risk, get the proper treatment and help they require, rather than sitting here and bickering about how unfair it is that someone's getting free hugs because they say they have depression (without consulting a GP).

 

[Graney]

Yeah, I find most the OP offensive, and would distance myself from such ideas. My critique comes from a different approach.

 

[blue_chameleon]

I don't question the legitimacy of depression. I question the legitimacy of it as an illness, in every case where it's diagnosed.

I think many cases possibly lie within the normal spectrum of human personalities. Any personality that society finds inconvenient and challenging is fobbed off as an illness and drugged up to put them out of the way, rather than dealing with them as real people with problems that are confronting and hard to deal with.

Witness the undeniable problems with ADD diagnosis among young boys, and 'social anxiety disorder'.

What about cases where there are transformations of personalities from one extreme to the other? (as in bubbly and bright personality throughout their life switching to unmotivated, detached from their usual self and lacking in the drive that they usually possess?

EDIT: It doesn't even need to be "from one extreme to the other", just a noticeable and sustained difference in personality to an outside observer that knows the persons core personality traits.

 

[Graney]

I accept there are different causes, and in every way it may be easily defined as an illness in many cases, and medications and therapies may be effective for those people.

I think those cases aren't telling the full story though.

Illness for some, intractable personality trait for others. Of course, there's no practical way to tell them apart :\

 

[chelsea girl]

suicide is general not a planned thing, it is spontaneous and therefore thats why you find many public occurrences. You have to remember people who are suffering depression arent in complete control/full state of mind in a way therefore they arent going to do it in a private place out of consideration of others

Actually, evidence would suggest otherwise. A spontaneous and emotion-charged attempt at suicide is often more so a cry for help than a complete desire to die. Those who are making a serious attempt will generally have it planned out in advance to ensure no obstacles can come in the way. It is frequently observed that a sort of "calm" can come over people in this instance, due to a feeling of perceived accomplishment and relief. (This is why, from what I have experienced at least, psychiatrists and psychologists can become concerned by a patient who shows no intense signs of emotion.)



Anyway, I don't know why I am even bothering to reply to this thread, as it's quite obvious that most people here are uninformed and narrow-minded in respect to the topic of depression and mental illness (as a side note: remember that depression will often be linked in with other mental health issues [e.g. Eating Disorders, Anxiety, PTSD, OCD], which can exacerbate the illness and its effects.)

I am basing my opinions and beliefs on anecdotal evidence, which I'd give a great deal of credit to, considering the sort of severe patients I've come into contact with.

I think a lot of people get confused about the difference between a "depressed state" and the illness that is Chronic Depression. Of course it is natural for a human being to swing between states of happiness and sadness, but a person suffering Depression will feel weighed down by a constant melancholy that can have nothing to do with any external factors. It is a chemical imbalance, and it requires medication to be corrected.

There seems to be an incorrect opinion amongst people who've not experienced it, that SSRI's and the like give some sort of euphoric high and are "happy meds". Not so. They can only correct what is wrong. They are not recreational drugs.

I do agree that the term "depression" is bandied about far too much these days, and meds given out without enough therapy in conjunction, as well as monitoring and follow-ups; however, I'd take that over the alternative, which is that millions of people suffer in their own private hell every day. It sounds melodramatic and ridiculous, but I can't describe it any other way.

Also, I take issue with young children and growing teenagers being prescribed psychiatric meds, but that is more an issue to do with the ethics of medical practitioners than whether or not Depression is a legitimate illness.

Lastly, I'd like to please ask the people who think of suicide as a selfish and disgusting act to truly think about whether they could be persuaded away from their strongest belief in life. Anything. Just think, would you listen to anyone else, or any rational argument, if you were so very sure that what you thought was 100% right?

I'm not trying to excuse anything or suggest that suicide is the best choice for anyone (it's not, and not enough is done for suicide prevention, in my opinion), but do try to at least have some empathy and attempt to understand why these people might go to these extreme lengths.

Do you think that it is a pleasant or comfortable experience to take one's own life? For someone to have such strong convictions about the fact that their death would improve things, not only for themselves, but for those around them and the world (because, ask anyone who has attempted suicide, and they will tell you exactly that) indicates a very, very sad and warped mental state. And how is it that people get to this point? Because they do not receive adequate assistance and care. And why would that be? Because there are people who label Depression an "illegitimate illness".

 

[blue_chameleon]

I accept there are different causes, and in every way it may be easily defined as an illness in many cases, and medications and therapies may be effective for those people.

I think those cases aren't telling the full story though.

Illness for some, intractable personality trait for others. Of course, there's no practical way to tell them apart :\

It's a valid point you make, and that's the challenge faced in advocating depression as a real medical condition.

 

[blue_chameleon]

I think a lot of people get confused about the difference between a "depressed state" and the illness that is Chronic Depression. Of course it is natural for a human being to swing between states of happiness and sadness, but a person suffering Depression will feel weighed down by a constant melancholy that can have nothing to do with any external factors. It is a chemical imbalance, and it requires medication to be corrected.

This.

Also, when you ask a person with chronic/clinical depression why they are feeling down or upset, or even how they are feeling, more often than not they wont be able to tell you.

 

[katie tully]

I have no idea what the motivation is for some of you people to have such a strong opinion about something you evidently know very little about.

Yes, there are attention seekers, hypochondriacs and people who mistake regular low moods for depression. Therefore people with a chemical imbalance often resulting in the complete inability to function in their day to day lives should be told to "harden the fuck up", as opposed to getting treatment for their condition?

If you honestly believe that depression at a moderate to severe level is simply a choice, please explain what grounds, AT ALL, you have to make that claim.

And no, "I felt sad once and then I felt better, so everyone should be like me" doesn't cut it.

I'm not sure if anyone is saying that, except maybe Graney.

My contention is that for every serious case of clinical depression there are probably twice as many cases of people who don't have it but need to use it as an excuse for whatever failures they've had in life. Nor am I debating the validity of other psychiatric disorders because I see everyday how nuts people are without control over their lives.

In my experience, those with clinical depression don't mope about infront of everybody and wail about how depressed they are and how they want to end their lives. Those with severe clinical depression often don't know they've got it or are ashamed and thus don't want people to know. This is especially true with men, and especially men over the age of 30.

It's also especially true with new mothers, post natal depression often just happens and the mother finds herself crying constantly and sometimes wanting to kill the child. These are the cases of depression I recognise, but I definitely think the term "depression" has become somewhat of a crutch in our society. We're also so heavily medicated these days, most people probably think they NEED antidepressants because they're having a bad day.

edit: and the stories about feeling sad weren't meant to disprove legitimate clinical depression. It was more to highlight that everybody has periods when they feel like shit, and it's not necessarily depression and it doesn't need to be medicated. Try therapy first. It was more to demonstrate that lots of people claim to be depressed, but how many of them are just experiencing normal human emotions?