Obama Addresses the Middle East (1 Viewer)

[SAVAK]

haha.

 

[Jessica14]

Aw geez....

 

[Lebosouljah]

lol

 

[JonathanM]

My high expectations have not been let down.

 

[Tully B.]

Nope. The very notion of Israel's existence used as a military outpost for former colonial powers of Europe and America suggests that its existence is directly linked to keeping in check Arab states across the region. Stop fucking kidding yourself and suggesting that Israel is a small nation with democratic values and all that propaganda bullshit. Its a tiny fascist entity which is a parasite of the world. The faster the world comes to realize it the quicker we can remove such a shit stain.

Amongst other things, Israel is a small nation with democratic values. If I had to choose between living in Israel and living in Palestine, I'd choose Israel. I favor my civil liberties more than my moral superiority. Hell, if it were me and my sisters, it'd be no fucking question; we're going to Israel.

Remember, I'm not "pro-Israel" just because I think it's unrealistic for anyone to be hoping for anything but a two-state solution.

 

[DavidBenGurion]

Israel is a small nation with democratic values.

So long as you aren't one of the many Arabs living in one of the Israeli controlled zones such as the West Bank or Gaza. In that case you're a prisoner.

 

[DavidBenGurion]

Remember, I'm not "pro-Israel" just because I think it's unrealistic for anyone to be hoping for anything but a two-state solution.

Nobody here seriously favours anything else.

 

[SAVAK]

Amongst other things, Israel is a small nation with democratic values. If I had to choose between living in Israel and living in Palestine, I'd choose Israel. I favor my civil liberties more than my moral superiority. Hell, if it were me and my sisters, it'd be no fucking question; we're going to Israel.

Remember, I'm not "pro-Israel" just because I think it's unrealistic for anyone to be hoping for anything but a two-state solution.

are you fucked? I cant believe i have to sit here and be lectured to by a card carrying Zionist fascist who supports the the existence of Israel by maintaining artificial Jewish majority by the use of state murder, terrorism, ethnic cleansing and racism of the indigenous people and then has the audacity to yap on about democratic values? DEMOCRATIC VALUES? Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[DavidBenGurion]

are you fucking kidding him?

 

[MaNiElla]

yeah, are you?

 

[Jessica14]

are you fucked? I cant believe i have to sit here and be lectured to by a card carrying Zionist fascist who supports the the existence of Israel by maintaining artificial Jewish majority by the use of state murder, terrorism, ethnic cleansing and racism of the indigenous people and then has the audacity to yap on about democratic values? DEMOCRATIC VALUES? Are you fucking kidding me?

State murder, terrorism, ethnic cleansing and rascism???

Are you serious?

 

[Tully B.]

are you fucked? I cant believe i have to sit here and be lectured to by a card carrying Zionist fascist who supports the the existence of Israel by maintaining artificial Jewish majority by the use of state murder, terrorism, ethnic cleansing and racism of the indigenous people and then has the audacity to yap on about democratic values? DEMOCRATIC VALUES? Are you fucking kidding me?

Calm down, man. Breathe.

A Zionist fascist? Me? I make it a point to argue with people from both sides of the aisle, zionist fascists and raging anti-semites, with equal veracity. As a member of the BoS neither-for-or-against-Israel group, I am merely the Switzerland of the holy land.

If it seems like I'm trying to provoke you, it's because I am. I'm trying to provoke you into thinking something other than: "Israel is bad. Everything Israel does is bad. Israel should never have become a nation. Israel shouldn't be a nation. I hate zee Jews".

Israel is more democratic than the nations surrounding it, and once you remove the melodrama from everything you just said, many other countries experience similar "glitches" in their exercising of the democratic system. Of course I am appalled at their killing of citizens, their terroristic tactics, their racism, as I would be and have been if/when other countries do/have done the same thing.

 

[JonathanM]

are you fucked? I cant believe i have to sit here and be lectured to by a card carrying Zionist fascist who supports the the existence of Israel by maintaining artificial Jewish majority by the use of state murder, terrorism, ethnic cleansing and racism of the indigenous people and then has the audacity to yap on about democratic values? DEMOCRATIC VALUES? Are you fucking kidding me?

A few flaws in that argument, Savak. First of all the Palestinians are not the 'indigenous' people. The term 'indigenous' people applies to the ethnic group who have the earliest known historical connection and that applies to neither the Palestinians, nor the Jews. If there were still Canaanites around, they'd be able to have this claim on Israel .

Israel does maintain a disagreeable policy of maintaining a Jewish majority. It's very simple, this is essentially racist. However its reasons for doing so are genuine, were it not to maintain this policy, I can tell you without any reservations whatsoever that as soon as there is no longer a Jewish majority, Israel would cease to be a Jewish state, which devoids any reason of it being there. It's methods are also very simple as well and cannot be described as 'state murder', 'ethnic cleansing' or 'terrorism.' All these terms are innacurate. Israel maintains its Jewish majority through two methods: the ease of attaining Israeli citizenship for all persons with Jewish heritage (anyone with a Jewish grandparent, the same method the Nazis used to work out who was Jewish) and through their stubborn refusal to reaccept the Palestinian right of return. The Jewish majority in Israel is currently at 68% and this percentage is decreasing, not increasing, as I said above, we all know what will happen if Israel accepts the millions of Palestinian refugees. I don't morally agree with it, but it's not rocket science.

Also, now this is where you guys are going to get angry with me, but I always have a bone to scratch when people bring up the 'right of return.' It is true that there are Palestinians who were displaced during 1948 and in my opinion, these people should be granted permission to return to their homes. However this number of people is significantly less than the the million plus that claim to have a right of return. It is a simple, true (and please, there are innumerable sources I have to quote), history lesson that led me to this conclusion. Prior to the mass attack on Israel in 1948, the Palestinians were encouraged to leave their homes to make way for the invading Arab armies. Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said said "we will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." It is true some left merely out of fear, but the vast majority left thinking the Jews were about to be annihilated by the combined forces of the Arab armies. King Abdullah, of Jordan, even saw this, when he wrote in his memoirs, "the tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue."

And quite frankly, for me, it is very simple, when you support the wrong side in a war, you get fucked over. Hundreds of thousands of Germans were dispossesed by the Allies, never to regain their homes. The Jews also got fucked over in a similar fashion. After the end of WW2, upwards of 30,000 Jews returned to their homes in Europe only to be brutally killed by those who were now living in their homes. It is true that there is now a 'right of return' for all Jews to return to their homes in Europe, but this is bullshit. My family theoretically owns hectares of land in Latvia that once belonged to our families and we have not been able to reclaim it, even with the necessary proof. The descendants of the Nazi family that kicked my great grandparents out are still living there. But I digress, in my opinion, all Palestinians who stayed in Israel despite the warnings and were then removed from their homes, and this number was more like around 100,000 at the time rather than the many hundreds of thousands. The number would now be in excess of hundreds of thousands and I believe all these people should be allowed to return to their homes and the Jewish ancestors of those who kicked them out, removed, this would destablise the Jewish majority and lower it significantly but it is a moral obligation.



*prepares to be torn to pieces*

 

[JonathanM]

Hahaha, attack of the epic posts!

When you know a debate is getting good =D

 

[Sprangler]

*prepares to be torn to pieces*

Why? Everything you said in your post is true.

 

[JonathanM]

Why? Everything you said in your post is true.

Not my arguments, I believe in them, but I've just made myself a target

I remain neutral, even pro-Palestinian in many areas, like the settlements in the West Bank and my belief in two states with a shared Jerusalem, but history cannot be disputed.

 

[Jessica14]

Even the most valid post gets picked to pieces.

 

[Tully B.]

Not my arguments, I believe in them, but I've just made myself a target

I remain neutral, even pro-Palestinian in many areas, like the settlements in the West Bank and my belief in two states with a shared Jerusalem, but history cannot be disputed.

Best post so far, man.

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

A few flaws in that argument, Savak. First of all the Palestinians are not the 'indigenous' people. The term 'indigenous' people applies to the ethnic group who have the earliest known historical connection and that applies to neither the Palestinians, nor the Jews. If there were still Canaanites around, they'd be able to have this claim on Israel .

These people don't have a historical connection anymore, since they're dead. I imagine that the term implies that they still exist. If not then it's a furfy term that has no place in this debate.

And your bringing up of pointless definitions doesn't do well to distract from the issue at hand: Who, out of the Arabs and the Jews, has greater claim to the land of Israel.

Israel does maintain a disagreeable policy of maintaining a Jewish majority. It's very simple, this is essentially racist. However its reasons for doing so are genuine, were it not to maintain this policy, I can tell you without any reservations whatsoever that as soon as there is no longer a Jewish majority, Israel would cease to be a Jewish state, which devoids any reason of it being there.

So? The ends does not justify the means if the means is murder, war and genocide, you delinquent fuck.

It's methods are also very simple as well and cannot be described as 'state murder', 'ethnic cleansing' or 'terrorism.'...
...and through their stubborn refusal to reaccept the Palestinian right of return.

Ok guy, but you see, the thing is that it goes about doing that by building a fucking wall, starving the Palestinians, rounding them up into a tiny coastal strip and the then bombing the living fuck out of them. It refuses to let Palestinians in or out of territories as it pleases. FFS, are you blind or just a twat?

The Jewish majority in Israel is currently at 68% and this percentage is decreasing, not increasing, as I said above, we all know what will happen if Israel accepts the millions of Palestinian refugees. I don't morally agree with it, but it's not rocket science.

So what's your point? Are you trying to explain the Israeli logic in defense of Israel, or simply to describe to us what we already know? I'd say the former. It's a case of "I don't support Israel but I understand and support their logic."

Also, now this is where you guys are going to get angry with me, but I always have a bone to scratch when people bring up the 'right of return.' It is true that there are Palestinians who were displaced during 1948 and in my opinion, these people should be granted permission to return to their homes. However this number of people is significantly less than the the million plus that claim to have a right of return. It is a simple, true (and please, there are innumerable sources I have to quote), history lesson that led me to this conclusion. Prior to the mass attack on Israel in 1948, the Palestinians were encouraged to leave their homes to make way for the invading Arab armies. Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said said "we will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." It is true some left merely out of fear, but the vast majority left thinking the Jews were about to be annihilated by the combined forces of the Arab armies. King Abdullah, of Jordan, even saw this, when he wrote in his memoirs, "the tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue."

Jesus Christ. No-one is impressed by long paragraphs that can be summarised in one or two sentences.

Through all your claptrap, one thing is discovered: The influx of Jews caused the Arabs to leave their homes. I'm not defending what the Arabs said or did back then, but responcibility falls back on the shoulders and immense noses of the Jews.

And quite frankly, for me, it is very simple, when you support the wrong side in a war, you get fucked over. Hundreds of thousands of Germans were dispossesed by the Allies, never to regain their homes. The Jews also got fucked over in a similar fashion. After the end of WW2, upwards of 30,000 Jews returned to their homes in Europe only to be brutally killed by those who were now living in their homes. It is true that there is now a 'right of return' for all Jews to return to their homes in Europe, but this is bullshit.

Ah I see your logic! YOU ARE A VIGOROUS LITTLE TIGER, AREN'T YOU?
War displaces people. Therefore, suck shit Arab people. This has happened in the past, and it will happen again.

That's horseshit logic dude, and you know it. Example: Slavery in America. Before it was abolished it was like...the thing to do, man! I'm sure there were a tonne of assholes using your logic back then. It was bullshit then and it was bullshit now. Just because people have been displaced in wars prior does not mean it is the correct course of action to allow now.

Second, you cannot apply the term "war" and pretend that it's an excuse for moral wrongs and crimes. Things should never work that way.

But I digress, in my opinion, all Palestinians who stayed in Israel despite the warnings and were then removed from their homes, and this number was more like around 100,000 at the time rather than the many hundreds of thousands.

Hey cool, but see, your opinion based on conjecture, is worth shit.

The number would now be in excess of hundreds of thousands and I believe all these people should be allowed to return to their homes and the Jewish ancestors of those who kicked them out, removed, this would destablise the Jewish majority and lower it significantly but it is a moral obligation.

Yes this I agree with.

Why? Everything you said in your post is true.

Nice kudos post, dickwad. Either make a proper contribution or fuck off plx0r.

 

[B_B_J]

Hi guys