Is it better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees? (1 Viewer)

[loquasagacious]

As much as I'm wary to paraphrase a peasant revolutionary I think it is an interesting question to ponder whether or not it is better to die fighting or live in subservience.

The question I think is interesting on both a personal-level and a species-level:

• Is it better for an individual to die fighting for their beliefs or to accept subservience?
• Is it better for the entire species to die fighting for a belief or to live in subservience?

Obviously the former is more likely to occur than the latter however the latter probably makes for a more stimulating discussion. To use an example from Torchwood - Children of Earth (which incidentally was excellent):

If a powerful alien species arrived and presented the ultimatum of us giving them 10% of the children of earth or a war in which humanity could reasonably be expected to struggle for it's very survival and perhaps even be extinguished as a species. Which would you chose?

Is there a rational cost-benefit to be performed or are there beliefs, standards, morals, etc for which the entire species should be prepared to fight to the death to defend?

 

[A High Way Man]

torchwood? good?

 

[u-borat]

hahahahaha +1 to above

 

[Serius]

As an individual , the top one can be a very personal question. Obviously your aim in live is to live as long and as well as you can. It might be noble to die for your beliefs, but now you are dead. Better to live whilst compromising your beliefs and fight another day, a battle that you can win. Theres instances where it might be worth fighting and risking death, i cant think off the top of my head an ideal i would die for, but i am sure i will come across something at some point.

As a species, survival is even more critical. Better that we are enslaved and live on than to be wiped out by a far superior alien force. Its not ideal and it sucks, but hey atleast humanity lives on.

 

[imsopostmodern]

i'd like to think that my life means something, has an impact in some way. so yeah, i'd rather go out fighting. may as well make it a story worth telling

 

[lychnobity]

Is there a rational cost-benefit to be performed or are there beliefs, standards, morals, etc for which the entire species should be prepared to fight to the death to defend?

I will never compromise my pride/dignity. A life of subservience is not worth living for. It would be an insult to my existence to act cowardly. The shame of not fighting to protect your lifestyle, ideals...

BUT, if it were a matter of sacrificing 10% of Earth's children, or wiping out mankind, if it were up to me, I would sacrifice the children. The end justifies the means.

 

[Iron]

It obviously depends on what your beliefs are. Many have laid down their lives for hateful and wrong beliefs, while many have also been martyred for the supreme reason.

Catholics cannot accept the need for any evil to reach a supposedly good end and we would be permitted to fight the aliens, dying for the good, the true and the beautiful

 

[loquasagacious]

torchwood? good?

Science fiction is an existential metaphor that allows us to tell stories about the human condition.

For an even nerdier retort

 

[settle*precious]

Who was the one person who voted live on our knees?

Iron, I'm looking at you.

 

[Enigmanation]

Agreed it was a surprisingly exceptional season of Torchwood.

What really got me thinking about this same issue was when they opted to sacrifice the most troubled 10 percent of the childhood populous.

Really is something to ponder about; by giving up that 10 percent we would be a) saving the rest of humanity from a war of worlds and b) getting rid of those that are or will likely be the greatest burden on mainstream society.
Some may see it as a win-win scenario, but whose to say where the line for 10 percent lies, who fits in and out of that percentile?.

Yet you still have to consider that by doing that we submit to the will of the aliens, and whose to say they wont keep returning, demanding more each time.

Gotta say i hated the ending though, was far too happy and perfect for my liking.

 

[quik.]

This is something I've always wondered about

For example when you see/read about some horrible dictator and his minions and you think cmon population, fuck his shit up you got numbers

Generally the most common deterrent is the fact that the 'bad guy' in question has access to stuff the peons do not, the army etc as well as (maybe most importantly) the organisation to get things done

As a general answer I would fight but I would also bide my time for a good opportunity, because you will in all likelihood only ever get one

 

[Silver Persian]

Us proletarian scum already do live on our knees; and we do so quite happily.

I know Iron certainly does.

 

[loquasagacious]

Very few armies have ever fought until they were annihilated and even fewer societies have fought until the entire society were dead - women and children inclusive*.

Even groups with a stated intent of fighting to the bitter end such as the Japanese in WWII ultimately surrendered in the face of insurmountable odds (e.g. the threat of nukes).

So at what point is the rational decision made? In the spirit of economists fascinated with the marginal cost v marginal benefit what is the tipping point? When is the cost low enough and the benefit high enough that we capitulate?

Using the original example, if 10% of children is unacceptable, is 5% acceptable? What about just 1 single, solitary child?


*Only example from the top of my head is the fall of Masada

 

[SylviaB]

Living on one's knees makes one an enabler of evil.

 

[SylviaB]

Also, this thread needs some COURAGE WOLF.

 

[loquasagacious]

Living on one's knees makes one an enabler of evil.

And yet it happens all the time...

 

[SylviaB]

And yet it happens all the time...

Of course

 

[quik.]

Insert quote about how the only thing necessary for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing here

 

[settle*precious]

"Evil prevails when good men do nothing" /dunno origin.

"there are two kinds of evil. People who do evil things and people who see evil things being done and do nothing about it" /meangirls.

 

[Iron]

Who was the one person who voted live on our knees?

Iron, I'm looking at you.

Not me

I mean, I was on my knees for much of this morning, for (sacred and pure reasons) and I would reject the underlying notion of the thread of the primacy of the individual, the bitter refusal to respect anyone other than ourselves etc, but my position still stands re my refusal to engage in evil means for good ends