Arbeit macht frei? (2 Viewers)

[loquasagacious]

Does work set you free?

Weber argued that the Protestant work ethic underpinned capitalism and that there is something noble in work.

Today work is seen as an important part of being a functioning member of society, while unemployment is no longer considered an actual mental condition, public policy certainly continues to treat it as a debilitating condition with serious impacts on wellbeing.

In an increasingly non-religious society work has been dubbed the new religion. Under this theory an individuals draw an identification from their work and it is tied up in their sense of who they are.

The counter point to this being that work is tearing apart the social fabric of society. Longer hours are taking parents away from their children, preventing people engaging in leisure activities, creating an incessant focus on profit and generally serving to alienate people from each other.

So in short does work set you free or does it chain you down?

 

[Iron]

I went to buy that bottemly book and i was like something something $50!! Go to hellI love you

Edit but I disagree with your religious interpretation. Catholics for one believe that man finds meaning and dignity through the work he undertakes, as long as it is undertaken for human ends

 

[loquasagacious]

So you're in the sets free and gives nobility camp not the chains down and tears apart society?

tbh was very interested where you'd fall on this one...

 

[Iron]

Lol you shouldnt be.

Imo there's nothing inherently liberating or good or evil/oppressive about work. It's a means to a greater end. When that end is no longer informed by universal morality and corrupted, clearly work can be a bad thing. No one would say that the guards etc at holocaust camps were doing 'good' work, even if they were efficient and diligent at their job.
The work of each generation should be enlightened by a faith which commands us to always love and see the welfare of man as our constant objective. We should renounce any other desire, such as power or greed. Man is not saved by faith alone; it must be matched by deeds. When we decide to follow anyone in life, we should first look to their fruits and not just their words. This, incidentally, is why bos should not seek to glorify Iron as it so desporately tries to.

 

[Tully B.]

Lol you shouldnt be.

Imo there's nothing inherently liberating or good or evil/oppressive about work. It's a means to a greater end. When that end is no longer informed by universal morality and corrupted, clearly work can be a bad thing. No one would say that the guards etc at holocaust camps were doing 'good' work, even if they were efficient and diligent at their job.
The work of each generation should be enlightened by a faith which commands us to always love and see the welfare of man as our constant objective. We should renounce any other desire, such as power or greed. Man is not saved by faith alone; it must be matched by deeds. When we decide to follow anyone in life, we should first look to their fruits and not just their words. This, incidentally, is why bos should not seek to glorify Iron as it so desporately tries to.

I, for one, was not aware of that.

 

[Iron]

Quiet, you

 

[Silver Persian]

Weber argued that the Protestant work ethic underpinned capitalism and that there is something noble in work.

Um, this might be worded a bit unclearly; maybe I'm misinterpreting.

But Weber argued that certain strands of Protestantism (Calvinsim) imbued labour with with a moral-religious significance that was instrumental to the development of capitalism. He wasn't personally contending that there was something noble in work; and in fact suggested that the economising and instrumentally rational type of economic labour characteristic of capitalism promoted the development of bureaucratic "iron cages" that stifled agency, creativity and freedom.

Sociologist in the house yo.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

So in short does work set you free or does it chain you down?

Neither and both.

Fuck ideology.

 

[loquasagacious]

Represent!

I will stand corrected. And perhaps reword that Weber saw Calvinism as holding work as a noble activity? Tbh I'm basically shooting from the hip here and wanted to prompt a little discussion.

 

[Graney]

Hard work is satanic.

We are indoctrinated to accept grudging wage slavery through the schooling system, and with the religious doctrine that hard work is morally virtuous.

It's deleterious to mental and physical health, relationships and meaning, and is to be avoided at all costs.

 

[Cookie182]

This question is answered in 'Fight Club'.

 

[Iron]

Hard work is satanic.

We are indoctrinated to accept grudging wage slavery through the schooling system, and with the religious doctrine that hard work is morally virtuous.

It's deleterious to mental and physical health, relationships and meaning, and is to be avoided at all costs.

I think it's more accurate to say that work actually socialises human beings and instructs them in increasingly better, more effective ways to communicate with other people. Otherwise the work doesnt get done and/or the product wont be sold.

 

[loquasagacious]

I agree that work is a powerful and good socialising force in society. Far from tearing society asunder I believe it binds us together. For me work is a fulfilling activity without which I feel somewhat rudderless.

If pressed to identify a single moment where I passed from boyhood to manhood it would be hard to go past recieving my first paycheck. I had taken responsibility for myself, I had worked and I was remunderated for doing so. From that moment I was no longer a child dependent on my parents.

I continue to find work a fulfilling and meaningful activity from which I draw part of my identity. Interestingly this seems to apply regardless of the type of work I am undertaking, I have for instance found award-wage labouring jobs to be as fulfilling as well-paid white collar work.

In short I strongly believe in the quiet nobility of hard work and the importance of work to being a happy and functioning member of society.

 

[Tully B.]

This question is answered in 'Fight Club'.

How so? It seems to be relatively anti-arbeit. Good movie, but.

 

[Silver Persian]

I think it's interesting that as material wealth rises, we work more and more. At the end of Keynes' General Theory, he (can't remember whether it was a prediction or a normative claim about what should happen) suggests that productivity growth, after a certain point, would/should be turned into greater leisure time rather than a higher GDP.

This seems like a nice idea, but it doesn't seem to be occuring. A minority of seachangers live up to this model, but collectively no such movement has happened.

Hard work is satanic.

We are indoctrinated to accept grudging wage slavery through the schooling system, and with the religious doctrine that hard work is morally virtuous.

It's deleterious to mental and physical health, relationships and meaning, and is to be avoided at all costs.

You're an interesting fellow Graney. Part freedom marketeer, part nihilist, part Marxist. Very confusing.

 

[Cookie182]

How so? It seems to be relatively anti-arbeit. Good movie, but.

Oh its very anti-arbeit. I was saying, the movies point of view is that work does not make free. That is a fundamental part of Durden's philosophy.

 

[Graney]

There's a kind of work that is good, quality, socialising work.

But for 99% of jobs out there, would you do them if you had the choice to do something else?

How many people would pursue their current jobs and careers if money was no concern?

The will to avoid poverty acts to thrust people into the workforce, and yes without this force it is common to feel temporarily rudderless. But this artificial creation of meaning and purpose by cruel force and necessity is a hollow and unsatisfying sort of purpose. A more satisfying freedom is achieved when an individual does not have to work, but chooses to do a kind of work anyway, not for profit and necessity, but for reasons in line with their value system.

 

[JonathanM]

But for 99% of jobs out there, would you do them if you had the choice to do something else?

I know you're just trying to get your point across, but the percentage would be much lower than that. There would be many people who genuinely love (or would feel obliged to do) what they're doing and might genuinely consider doing it if money weren't a factor (personal trainers? zoologists? doctors?) and others who are just workaholics and won't be satisfied till they have something, anything to do.

 

[Tully B.]

Oh its very anti-arbeit. I was saying, the movies point of view is that work does not make free. That is a fundamental part of Durden's philosophy.

True, that. By the word Tyler Durden, freedom can only be found through anarchy.

 

[blue_chameleon]

How many people would pursue their current jobs and careers if money was no concern?

I would. There's also plenty of people that money present no boundaires towards, who still put in the long hours and derive just as much satisfaction from what they do as you would from not working.

A more satisfying freedom is achieved when an individual does not have to work, but chooses to do a kind of work anyway, not for profit and necessity, but for reasons in line with their value system.

See above.

Work is a means to an end for a lot of people. In some, it is blindly obvious that this is the case. In others, they have another means to reaching their 'end', so 'work' takes on a different meaning and purpose.

I know for me, i'll definitely be trying to establish myself so that work doesn't remain a means to an end for me. But it doesn't mean i'll stop working.