Reflections of a 4th yr pharm student--pls read if you're considering pharm (2 Viewers)

[mrs grasshopper]

does anyone know if optometry is facing the same situation, where there are too many students, making it difficult to find a job?

 

[extensorindicis]

i'm not 100% sure, but fairly sure optom & physio arn't immune. I was thinking of transfering to optom, read some threads on it, think it was in medstudentsonline, they were saying some optoms were working 2 part time optom jobs to earn a full time wage. But, perhaps its less of an issue since theres a really small optom grade.

 

[sydneyphoenix]

Alright everyone, fortunately, and I mean, fortunately, this has ended well. I got offered Dubbo Hospital just now. But the moral of the story still hasn't changed. It's been a hard, long, road, and even just 2 years ago, you didn't need to hunt for 2 months to get a job. Now I really wish this interview had happened a week earlier, so that I didn't waste my $52 at UAC. Oh well, that's the least of my troubles

Congratulations on Dubbo job offer. Now that you have a job secured I hope you can wait on the results of other interviews with better peace of mind. And speaking of UAC application fee, don't forget that there are others who spent UAC application fee multiple times.

What I am surprised at from your Saga is how difficult it is for even USYD graduates to secure jobs in metropolitan hospitals. I hope the stats are different for community sector, but given how firmly entrenched USYD graduates are in pharmacy business (community, hospital, industry, etc.), I hate to imagine how much of a chance graduates of other, "less-established" universities have. If (and hopefully only if) a proprietor have two candidates who have pretty-much equally matched credential, though from different universities, I will be inclined to believe that the employer may go for the candidate from his/her university.

 

[lala2]

Congratulations on Dubbo job offer. Now that you have a job secured I hope you can wait on the results of other interviews with better peace of mind. And speaking of UAC application fee, don't forget that there are others who spent UAC application fee multiple times.

Thanks

What I am surprised at from your Saga is how difficult it is for even USYD graduates to secure jobs in metropolitan community.

Corrected. I'm not surprised at metropolitan hospitals because a) they're metropolitan, and b) they're hospital.But I'm surprised at metropolitan community because you'd think there'd be enough pharmacies around. Interviews are no longer a mere formality.

Someone even had to wait for a job offer from a community pharmacy in Newcastle (admittedly it was a chain group but still), and it wasn't even like a mere wait-till-I-just-check-your-referees-and-I'll-get-back-to-you-tomorrow type of wait, it was a good 2 weeks, so obviously they had other applicants too! And I mean, it's just Newcastle. It'd be 100x worse in Sydney.

 

[Continuum]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

Ok, so now that I'm on the cusp of finishing (hopefully), I just want to share my experience with any of you who may be interested in pharm. Some bkgrnd on me--I started pharm in 2006 at USYD, BUT it was not my first choice. I actually wanted to do med science, and I considered being a music teacher for a while. I chose pharm because I was interested in science, wanted a stable job, and pharm was the highest UAI course I could get into that satisfied both criteria.

I thought I would grow to love it. How wrong I was. Basically, my disillusionment came about when I started working in a pharmacy in late 2007. I realised that you learn so much crap only to use, at best, about 5% of it. A monkey could do the work we do--stick labels on boxes, and know which books to look up should that rare customer who's actually more interested than simply how to take their meds, ask a curly question. And basically the instructions are given by the doctor, and any extra stuff that needs to be said, e.g. don't take grapefruit juice if you're on certain cholesterol-lowering drugs, those are all programmed into the computer anyway.

I'm not opposed to learning for the sake of learning, in fact, far from it, but it really disappointed me that I was learning all this stuff, never to use it. If I had gone in knowing that I would never grow to love this course, or that I was going to learn a lot of stuff that I would never use, at least the disappointment wouldn't have been as great.

And trust me, it's not for the lack of trying. I've been a member of the immediate past SUPA committee, I've attended two student conferences, I attend all my lectures very diligently, I've been an ambassador for the uni trying to promote a degree I hate, in the hope I could at least fool myself for a further two years that I enjoyed this degree, but my conscience will simply not let me rest--this degree is not for me.

So what I'm saying is, just know that you'll be put through four years (actually five, with registration) of crap and will hardly be appreciated for it. Note I never said you'll never be appeciated, because there will be the odd customer that will, but they are rare and far in between.

I will admit I haven't had any hospital experience, and it may be different there, but from what I've heard from my friends who have done hospital placements this semester, you are really unappreciated too, by the hospital, the doctors (some hospitals don't even have a pharmacist on ward rounds!), and there's a massive hierarchy to navigate, not to mention you're on call, the office politics...yadda yadda yadda.

This experience is not unique to me--just from casually talking to many, many people (both students and working pharmacists), many feel the same way. The newly registered pharmacist at work has gone back to do a Masters in Commerce and International Business, and a very experienced pharmacist (40 years in the profession, owned a pharmacy in Newtown, is a guy at the Pharm Guild) said he too was very disillusioned after finishing--he went back to study psych but dropped out after a year and returned to pharm merely because he had gotten married, a kid was on the way and he needed the money. This older pharmacist, many of his friends also did other things afterwards too, and he estimates about 2/3s of graduating pharm students will not be working as pharmacists 10 years out.

Yes, I'm bitter and disappointed. My first exam is for a subject I failed (this is how much I hate pharmacy) which is Monday week, I can't prepare for it but even if I could I would leave it probably till next Saturday. I have just under two weeks to prepare for my first exam that can be prepared for, and I think...no, I know I will leave the study till Saturday anyway, cram and finish Friday morning at 3am when my exam is at 12pm. Trust me, I wasn't always like this. I was a conscientious student who always constantly studied, and to procrastinate and cram so badly, this is what pharmacy's done to me.

for the tl;dr crowd, aka conclusion
So, the take home msg is very carefully consider whether you really want to go through five years (four yr degree + one yr rego) only to use about 5% of what you know and be generally unappreciated for it. As for me, I'm planning to go back to uni in 2011 and do not medicine *shock, horror* but...science/arts.

Respect. Kudos to you for sharing your experience, I hope everything works out nicely.

 

[lala2]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

Thanks for the good wishes. I got my second offer late yesterday afternoon. Can I just say, before I announce, that it's been so much hard work--2 months of physical, mental and emotional exhaustion. Averaging 2 hours sleep each night. Thinking up good answers and refining them. And oscillating between depression, elation and just being over it all. 28 job applications, and, as of today, 10 interviews. I would not have gotten this second offer without the practice I got from the 6 interviews previous to that. It is a costly exercise--I think I've spent close to $300 on travel for those 6 interviews (train tickets, airfares, taxi fares, bus fares).

Won't hold suspense any longer....*drumroll* second offer is..........

Spoiler

Manly Hospital.

Which I've accepted

 

[danz90]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

Thanks for the good wishes. I got my second offer late yesterday afternoon. Can I just say, before I announce, that it's been so much hard work--2 months of physical, mental and emotional exhaustion. Averaging 2 hours sleep each night. Thinking up good answers and refining them. And oscillating between depression, elation and just being over it all. 28 job applications, and, as of today, 10 interviews. I would not have gotten this second offer without the practice I got from the 6 interviews previous to that. It is a costly exercise--I think I've spent close to $300 on travel for those 6 interviews (train tickets, airfares, taxi fares, bus fares).

Won't hold suspense any longer....*drumroll* second offer is..........

Spoiler

Manly Hospital.

Which I've accepted

Congratulations! Sound's great! All the best in your career

To add to good news in this thread - I got accepted into the TSP! Romano Fois is my academic mentor..

 

[lala2]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

Oooo wow congrats! Knew you'd do it Romano Fois....what can I say?! He's fantastic . He was my dispensing tutor last year and he was so patient and understanding. He was my academic referee for my job applications as well so yeah, that was really helpful So what's next? What's your project(s), and when do you start working on them?

 

[danz90]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

Oooo wow congrats! Knew you'd do it Romano Fois....what can I say?! He's fantastic . He was my dispensing tutor last year and he was so patient and understanding. He was my academic referee for my job applications as well so yeah, that was really helpful So what's next? What's your project(s), and when do you start working on them?

We're having our first meeting with Romano Fois in a few weeks time.. just after exams.

I'm really interested to see what projects we'll be working on...

 

[Survivor39]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

Well doen to both lala2 and danz90!

@ lala2: now you don't have to live in Dubbo (pretty boring unless it's the cherry season) and you can enjoy life in Manly! yay! You must be so excited!

 

[kenhung123]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

Hey guys, I asked a few people already and they told me that this pretty much applies to a lot of courses. Half the stuff you learn isn't required in the profession. I guess its just like high school you learn how to draw graphs, write essays and learn how forces work but never will we use that. Just my thoughts.

 

[Survivor39]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

I guess its just like high school you learn how to draw graphs, write essays and learn how forces work but never will we use that.

I still need to draw graphs and write essays. These are transferrable skills that will get you through different jobs!

Don't get confused between transferrable skills and discipline-specific skills!

 

[lala2]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

Well doen to both lala2 and danz90!

@ lala2: now you don't have to live in Dubbo (pretty boring unless it's the cherry season) and you can enjoy life in Manly! yay! You must be so excited!

Haha thanks Yeah, I'm pretty excited. Will probably live at home for the first month or so until everything settles. What about you? Are you off to the States soon? (am I right that's where you're going?)

 

[Survivor39]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

I'm in England at the moment. (refer to my signature)

 

[lala2]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

haha my bad. How's it going?

 

[meilz92]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

hi
im considering doing pharmacy next year (if i can get the ATAR required :S)

ive been working as a pharmacy assistant for 18 months now, and most of the time its not too bad... so ive seen pharmacists in action, their work seems pretty simple. People always come in and ask to speak to a pharmacist regarding minor ailments/how to treat them and other information on medicines... doesnt seem that bad. Ive also noticed that they have pretty long hours though (9am-9pm is the longest shift at my pharmacy) and also may be required to work weekends.

What is the typical wage of a pharmacist per hour? I know that the ones who own the pharmacy get quite a bit... what about the other regular pharmacists?

also, how many hours per week are you usually on campus (ie. for lectures and tutes) for a B Pharm at USYD? ive heard that its quite a bit more than other degrees, is this right? Its making me confused as to whether i should do it or not, or whether i should just do a BSc and become a highschool teacher!!

please let me know, thanks

 

[spdr20]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

hi
im considering doing pharmacy next year (if i can get the ATAR required :S)

ive been working as a pharmacy assistant for 18 months now, and most of the time its not too bad... so ive seen pharmacists in action, their work seems pretty simple. People always come in and ask to speak to a pharmacist regarding minor ailments/how to treat them and other information on medicines... doesnt seem that bad. Ive also noticed that they have pretty long hours though (9am-9pm is the longest shift at my pharmacy) and also may be required to work weekends.

What is the typical wage of a pharmacist per hour? I know that the ones who own the pharmacy get quite a bit... what about the other regular pharmacists?

also, how many hours per week are you usually on campus (ie. for lectures and tutes) for a B Pharm at USYD? ive heard that its quite a bit more than other degrees, is this right? Its making me confused as to whether i should do it or not, or whether i should just do a BSc and become a highschool teacher!!

please let me know, thanks

Well you can work out the typical wage of a hospital pharmacist through the health website

Pharmacist - NSW Department of Health

Cant help you with anything else, as I dont do pharm
Good luck anyway..worse coems to worse, jsut do a science degree, do your honours in it, then do an MPharm degree. Your a pharmacist and you got the opportunity to work in academia down the track.

 

[lala2]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

hi
im considering doing pharmacy next year (if i can get the ATAR required :S)

ive been working as a pharmacy assistant for 18 months now, and most of the time its not too bad... so ive seen pharmacists in action, their work seems pretty simple. People always come in and ask to speak to a pharmacist regarding minor ailments/how to treat them and other information on medicines... doesnt seem that bad.

That's what I'm trying to get at. You learn all this stuff only to use about 5% of it. I'm sitting at home right now trying to memorise about a million contraindications, side effects and doses. Sorry, but what are the chances I'll encounter a customer who has, for example, hypopituitarism? (where about a million different, unrelated drugs are needed).

I'll also admit that I, as a person, don't suit community. I'm not very talkative (I'm a good listener, but actually opening my mouth is another thing), I'm shit at bullshitting (most of the stuff we sell is placebo, i.e. euphemism for quack, and people can see right through me), I'm very bad at expressing myself concisely, I'm very bad at handling difficult customers, I'm very unobservant so most people think I'm ignoring them when I actually don't notice them, etc, etc etc.

I have nothing against correcting my own errors (like trying to be more observant) but I don't know, hospital exhausts me far less than community. Not to mention, the perks of hospital:

- You get to interact with other healthcare professionals.
- You actually use more of your knowledge
- Monday-Friday 9-5pm. Maybe occasional Saturdays, but never met a hospital pharmacy which goes past Saturday noon.
- You actually get to counsel patients properly--> now this seems like a bit of a huh? but I did pharmacy to help people. I think in hospital you get to help them more fully. Actually counselling them thoroughly. Where in a community pharmacy do you get time to ramble on about warfarin for 30 minutes? (yes, I did mention I'm bad at expressing myself concisely).
- And, if you get annoying customers--well, they're usually too sick to show their tempers or stupidity.

Ive also noticed that they have pretty long hours though (9am-9pm is the longest shift at my pharmacy) and also may be required to work weekends.

I have nothing against long work hours though. You want the money, you gotta work hard.

What is the typical wage of a pharmacist per hour? I know that the ones who own the pharmacy get quite a bit... what about the other regular pharmacists?

Depends on your experience. I've actually lost my community pharmacy pay schedule sheet--not on purpose, mind you, but thinking about it, I'm glad I did--hopefully will never need to have one again. As a guide, I'm paid $19/hr as a 4th year student (casual). I know that Harrison's grads get paid $16/hr (or thereabouts, whatever the award is), i.e. they're considered fulltime.

It goes up exponentially from there. In fact, I think they overtake hospital once you're a registered pharmacist. As a hospital grad, I get paid $26/hr (ho ho money here I come!) but once registered, it only goes up by a bit I imagine (maybe something like $30/hr?) So yeah, you can imagine the $$$$ as a registered pharmacist. But honestly, I would never go back to community, not even for the money.

also, how many hours per week are you usually on campus (ie. for lectures and tutes) for a B Pharm at USYD? ive heard that its quite a bit more than other degrees, is this right? Its making me confused as to whether i should do it or not, or whether i should just do a BSc and become a highschool teacher!!

please let me know, thanks

It'd be about the same as a science degree. Definitely less than vet though. It's about 25-30hrs/week, but decreases as you progress through the degree. I think I only had about 18 hrs of classes this year (both semesters).

Don't let the hours put you off. It's only for 4 years. Everyone gets through it, even me, so yeah.

Oh, and I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to bash community. One man's trash is another man's treasure. There's a place for both hospital and community (and industry, and academia too) but I found it personally didn't suit me, and just trying to give the other side of what pharmacy is. Too often I find it's presented through rose coloured glasses--people are just like, it's stable, it's $, it's respected. True that, but a lot of people, like myself, went in thinking just that, and just as many have walked out disillusioned.

Sobering note on job prospects: I know of at least six, most capable students still looking for jobs. Three of them are honours students. So it's not like the "dumb" ones aren't getting jobs. EDIT: I realise I've written an essay, so I've bullet pointed it:

- Well spoken Aussie student didn't get hospital, and still looking for community (strong work history, has worked at a very respectable pharmacy for at least 3-4 years) --> yes I was shocked.
- Korean international student--"I knew I had no chance in Sydney" --> applied for the place he got rural placement at (it's near Young, so it's not even near Sydney). Fortunately for him, he got it.
- Asian local student (so not an international student problem)--lives in Bankstown, has applied for places as far as Avalon (and still looking). If it isn't already far enough, he doesn't have a driver's licence, so I'd like to see how he's gonna handle the commute if he gets it.
- Another Asian local student--lives in Pennant Hills, has applied for places as far as Mascot. Only has variable access to a car, so again, would like to see how he commutes if he gets it.
- UPDATE (20/1/10): The last student I heard to get a rego position was 2 weeks ago. Then again, a very mediocre, international, mature-aged student but still....

Oh, and don't get me started on the application process for Harrison's--let's just say the Broadway position still remaining is the biggest thing since Ben-Hur. They've been interviewing for it since late July, and still haven't filled it (that's how picky they can afford to be). On top of that (and this is common to all Harrison's pharmacies not just Broadway)--you have a minimum of 3 interviews, potentially 4.

- One with the central HR lady over the phone
- One with the central HR lady in person (and it's not some niggly 30 minute interview--mine took a good hour, and trust me, that lady's paid to be a bitch, most horrible interview ever)
- One with the manager of the store you're applying for (part of this "interview" includes a work trial where they just leave you there--without any directions!--and try and see how you interact with the other staff)
- One with any senior pharmacists who weren't there at your interview, as a confirmatory thing.

Not saying anything against Harrison's, but this shows how picky they can afford to be. My friend who's still looking had her first interview for Broadway in early August, and only had her third interview 2 weeks ago. You can make your own judgements on whether you think that's a fair process for a graduate position.

I just count myself so lucky to a) get a hospital position, and b) one in Sydney. I was honestly so prepared to leave, as you might be able to tell from where I've been applying. QLD apparently seems to have better job prospects (overall), and VIC in terms of hospital. I went on their website and there's 31 hospitals offering 89 graduate positions compared to NSW with maybe about the same number of hospitals offering not more than 50 I'm pretty sure.

 

[spdr20]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

hey lala, you ever considered doing research? if you arent an awsome people person but you love the science, research seems ideal. I know of a lot of pharm grads who pursue the research side, which is still quite interesting. It jsut seems like you got a lot of hate towards the course lol
Besides, I think most jobs entail a lot of boring repetetive work. And I could think of far worse jobs out there

 

[lala2]

Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)

I'd like to try research at some point, I think as part of my hospital training I need to do some sort of research project, so that'll give me a bit more of an idea. The course itself isn't too bad, just the career depresses me (as a community pharmacist, that is).

Haha you're right, I should probably keep in perspective. There are a lot worse jobs out there. I guess that's the point of a job--to do stuff you wouldn't otherwise do if you weren't getting paid. What about you? I couldn't help but sneak a look at your profile (yeah, inner stalker )--are you still in the medical science industry?