STILL trying to figure out which course to do, advice appreciated (2 Viewers)

[mattk210]

So basically, my only interests are in computing and maths. I can see myself being some kind of software engineer, systems analyst or working in finance with maths (I'm leaning more towards this last one at the moment, because I think it will pay better and generally will have more job security). So I really want to do a combined degree that lets me explore both of these areas. But it seems, from reading around, that commerce doesn't give a particularly strong background in maths, and it seems to me like something like 424005 Comm/Adv Maths (UAC Undergraduate Course Description) would be more appropriate for someone in my position. But obviously, I can't combine 3 degrees and do computer science as well. My parents and most friends just suggested I do commerce/computer science and forget the adv maths component seeing as comp sci has maths in it anyway, but I'm kind of attached to adv maths, particularly the talented students programs at USyd and UNSW (and similar programs), seeing as I vastly prefer to be challenged and be around talented people, and I really do have a strong interest in maths.

Am I being unreasonable? Should I be studying something just because I like it even if it's not particularly relevant to career prospects? What would you advise to someone in my situation?

Thanks in advance (if this is in the wrong section, sorry - it kind of overlaps several areas)

 

[ad infinitum]

Follow what your interested in. If that's computer science and math, then choose those two.

 

[mattk210]

but can one get a job in finance with just maths? Or any kind of safe, well paid, rewarding job at all? I am concerned about career prospects more than how much I enjoy the course.

 

[tommykins]

lol, enjoy your work+job+course > career prospects

 

[Studentleader]

Just do maths (and computer science if you are that desperate.)

In the time it takes for a double degree you could have your masters in financial mathematics or honours in computational mathematics.

I signed up for Bachelor of Computer and Mathematical Sciences / Bachelor of Commerce - dropped commerce in 10 weeks as it is just so useless when you want to do financial mathematics. You will need an undergraduate degree before you can touch most real financial mathematics.

but can one get a job in finance with just maths? Or any kind of safe, well paid, rewarding job at all? I am concerned about career prospects more than how much I enjoy the course.

You can make $100k a year doing computer science quite easily as soon as you get into a project management/architecture role. Investment banking is one of the worst paid jobs per hour and I hope you keep that in mind - if you are interested in computational mathematics you will be able to make good money in areas other than finance such as data-mining, statistics, signal processing...

 

[mattk210]

thanks for the advice, studentleader. No university near me seems to offer "Bachelor of Computer and Mathematical Sciences" though. Can you do computational mathematics in a normal maths course?

 

[migoi]

I'm currently doing a B Commerce/Science @ UNSW, just switched this semester, Commerce at the undergrad level is a joke IMHO, hence I added a science degree to it (didn't want to drop the commerce degree after 1.5 years of it). If you want to do financial mathematics/modelling then Maths or Computer Science degree would be much more useful, the real financial modelling material are studied in postgraduate courses from what i've read. Which coincides StudentLeader has said.

If you want a challenging degree, then I don't believe a commerce degree will give you that. On the money side, a mathematics/comp science will give you greater range of careers to choose from including a career in finance. I'm majoring in Finance and am currently completing the rest core finance subjects, the maths required is nothing beyond 2 unit mathematics (if that).

At UNSW there are a range of Computational Mathematics subjects, here is just a sample list of them:

• MATH2301 Mathematical Computing
• MATH3041 Mathematical Modelling for Real World Systems
• MATH3101 Computational Mathematics
• MATH3311 Mathematical Computing for Finance

There are more, as some subjects require mathematical computing as part of it's content/assessment but these I assume would have much more focus on the computing component.

But really Commerce majoring in anything is not very useful unless you want to do accounting then that's the way to go. From what I know, finance is better studied at the masters level or even on the job.

P.S. I currently started my Mathematics major in my science degree and thus have not experience any of the subjects first hand but have read extensively the course outlines (mostly the course schedule) and postgraduate finance/mathematics course subjects.

 

[Studentleader]

thanks for the advice, studentleader. No university near me seems to offer "Bachelor of Computer and Mathematical Sciences" though. Can you do computational mathematics in a normal maths course?

There are some computational mathematics units at UNSW (more than UWA anyway )

If you do a B.Sc(Mathematics) you will be using packages like MATLAB, Mathematica, R though no mathematics units involve actual programming which I consider to be quite important. If you do a B.Sc(Computer Science) you will have to do a unit on discrete mathematics and I assume that data structures, algorithms, machine learning and artifical intelligence are quite mathematics however I am unsure of the level - there is only one computer science unit at UWA which requires a good understanding of mathematics (linear algebra and relational calculus.)

If you chose to do the double degree your ability to do computer science will be crippled by commerce units which is why I'd recommend doing a mathematics degree. If you chose to do the double degree and have electives make sure you put them in programming units because they really enforce a mathematical sytle of thinking.

I have seen a bit of debate regarding the importance of computer science in quant finance - Mark Joshi said wait till post grad to pick it up whilst the coordinator of the master's program here said it's best to pick one up early.

 

[04er]

i'd say it's pretty normal to be undecided at this stage of the process. just take your time and you'll make the right decision

 

[wrong_turn]

LOL @ job security for finance. more like lack of jobs. read the news =P

 

[migoi]

lol yeah, job security in the finance industry is like non-existent. My brother is graduating from B Applied Finance from MQ at the end of this year and is struggling to secure a job. So if you want job security, finance is the last thing you look at.

 

[mattk210]

Thanks for the input everyone, it's really changed my thinking a lot. My dad is in structured finance and is successful and I guess that creates some bias. Right now I'm thinking I'll take advanced maths at USYD or UNSW and try and get some units in computational mathematics.

Also, I noticed science could be combined with a variety of things (like science/comp sci at UNSW), but advanced maths can't be combined with anything except arts or commerce. If I take mathematical units in the science part of a combined degree, can I make that a maths degree?

 

[Studentleader]

Also, I noticed science could be combined with a variety of things (like science/comp sci at UNSW), but advanced maths can't be combined with anything except arts or commerce. If I take mathematical units in the science part of a combined degree, can I make that a maths degree?

Yes and you can take the advanced maths units - you will just recieve B.science not B.advanced science

 

[Studentleader]

Also, I noticed science could be combined with a variety of things (like science/comp sci at UNSW), but advanced maths can't be combined with anything except arts or commerce. If I take mathematical units in the science part of a combined degree, can I make that a maths degree?

Yes and you can take the advanced maths units - you will just recieve B.science not B.advanced science.

Try to get the most flexible degree structure possible - really wish I did fluid dynamics instead of economics ><

 

[dvse]

Thanks for the input everyone, it's really changed my thinking a lot. My dad is in structured finance and is successful and I guess that creates some bias. Right now I'm thinking I'll take advanced maths at USYD or UNSW and try and get some units in computational mathematics.

Also, I noticed science could be combined with a variety of things (like science/comp sci at UNSW), but advanced maths can't be combined with anything except arts or commerce. If I take mathematical units in the science part of a combined degree, can I make that a maths degree?

"Advanced" maths/science are just a meaningless marketing gimmick and are identical to regular degrees with honours.

If you want credible technical skills and something that can actually be considered an education, you should do all three - maths, computer science and finance. Finance is pretty elementary with the right maths background - can either do a masters or something like CFA.

Keep in mind, however, that most jobs out there do not require any background beyond some general knowledge and arithmetic (and indeed nothing more is imparted by a finance degree alone - in my experience there is no difference between 1st year coop student and a graduate). How well you will do depends on qualities that are not taught.

See my other posts on this.


Oh.. and "computational maths" (e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_method) has little to do with "computing" as the term is commonly understood.

 

[velox]

"Advanced" maths/science are just a meaningless marketing gimmick and are identical to regular degrees with honours.

If you want credible technical skills and something that can actually be considered an education, you should do all three - maths, computer science and finance. Finance is pretty elementary with the right maths background - can either do a masters or something like CFA.

Keep in mind, however, that most jobs out there do not require any background beyond some general knowledge and arithmetic (and indeed nothing more is imparted by a finance degree alone - in my experience there is no difference between 1st year coop student and a graduate). How well you will do depends on qualities that are not taught.

See my other posts on this.


Oh.. and "computational maths" (e.g Finite element method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) has little to do with "computing" as the term is commonly understood.

Generally at usyd you need to complete the advanced courses to be eligible for honours.

+1 to your post though.

 

[Leeson]

I don't know much about software engineering or systems analyst but based off what I know about the financial industry, you're probably going to get more job security if you pursue a programming career than a financial one. Having said that, finance does pay incredibly well even compared to the six figure salaries rumored to exist in CS related professions (again, my knowledge of that area is hazy at best). Firstly, realize that the financial industry is very diversified, there is no staple finance job, although I suppose recently IB has been in the limelight. Investment banking jobs generally come in two types: traders and traditional bankers, separated within the firm by a Chinese wall. The traditional banker role (aka M&A), typically meant by people who say IB, requires substantial amounts of financial theory and know-how, but not much mathematical skills and even less computing skills aside from knowing how to work Excel and Word. Traders require a lot more mathematical prowess, fast mental arithmetic is a must and some basic applied maths helps, however you don't exactly need the depth and abstractness a math major confers onto you and definitely will not be needing any programming skills either. If fact, the only roles I can think of in an IB where you can actively apply mathematical and computing skills is in support, such as quant positions and risk management. While support offers a lot more job security and is much easier to enter into than trading or banking jobs, it does pay a lot less and often requires post-grad qualifications (PhD for a proper quant role). And finally, to the person who said that IB is the worse paying job per hour: Even working 70 hour weeks on average for 50 weeks a year, a $100,000 salary still averages ~$28/hr which, while not mind blowing, is not exactly the paramount of poverty either. Keep in mind that figure is pre-bonus and relates only to first year graduate analysts. Depending on how well you perform your salary can grow exponentially.

 

[Studentleader]

I don't know much about software engineering or systems analyst but based off what I know about the financial industry, you're probably going to get more job security if you pursue a programming career than a financial one. Having said that, finance does pay incredibly well even compared to the six figure salaries rumored to exist in CS related professions (again, my knowledge of that area is hazy at best). Firstly, realize that the financial industry is very diversified, there is no staple finance job, although I suppose recently IB has been in the limelight. Investment banking jobs generally come in two types: traders and traditional bankers, separated within the firm by a Chinese wall. The traditional banker role (aka M&A), typically meant by people who say IB, requires substantial amounts of financial theory and know-how, but not much mathematical skills and even less computing skills aside from knowing how to work Excel and Word. Traders require a lot more mathematical prowess, fast mental arithmetic is a must and some basic applied maths helps, however you don't exactly need the depth and abstractness a math major confers onto you and definitely will not be needing any programming skills either. If fact, the only roles I can think of in an IB where you can actively apply mathematical and computing skills is in support, such as quant positions and risk management. While support offers a lot more job security and is much easier to enter into than trading or banking jobs, it does pay a lot less and often requires post-grad qualifications (PhD for a proper quant role). And finally, to the person who said that IB is the worse paying job per hour: Even working 70 hour weeks on average for 50 weeks a year, a $100,000 salary still averages ~$28/hr which, while not mind blowing, is not exactly the paramount of poverty either. Keep in mind that figure is pre-bonus and relates only to first year graduate analysts. Depending on how well you perform your salary can grow exponentially.

Programming jobs get outsourced to India so you don't want to be a code monkey.

 

[Cookie182]

In reference to the discussion are you quantitative guys wanting "front-office" IB jobs?

Eg Studentleader what exact job do you want? As the guy above said, you barely need any deep mathematics to be an actual Investment Banker, I'd say it is more stamina and communication skills. So are you actually seeking support/risk modelling roles?

If not, from the advice I recieved, Comm (Finance)(Hons)/LL.B with many contacts and a sweet D-HD average is still the way into the trader/IB roles.

In fact, according to the knowledge of my current finance lecturer (ex IB'er for 30 yrs) it was only basic arithmetic in use (you get a summary of the figures, they are worked out by the quants in the back-office). He came from a tax law (CA) background and found that people who did the best had a deep knwoledge of financial markets and products, accounting statements, general business and marketing and tax legislation (domestic and abroad). IB's like lawyers due to their exposure to lots of paperwork, rules and regulations (and generally use to long hard work). The logical thinking skills (this can come from any background- accounting, law, engineering or maths) are just part of the package.

 

[RuffWoof]

So does the logical skills and knowledge of business attained from an undergrad accounting degree + CA qualification suffice for a trader/front office role in IB?