Where do you stand? (9 Viewers)

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Sorry but how do all these issues personally affect YOU?

Why do you have to concern yourself with all the silly things people do that aren't good for them [but obviously do provide some sense of satisfaction]?

Because I care I'm sorry but it does sadden me to see people get cancer.

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Because I care I'm sorry but it does sadden me to see people get cancer.

That's all well and good but people get cancer from all different sources and it can't always be helped.

Would you care if under a communist government everyone was unhappy and there was very prevalent suicide?

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I said there would be all sorts of risks regarding corruption; that does not mean it is impossible for a powerful man to be benevolent.

Hello divine right of kings. Also you realise that as well as being powerful and benevolent this individual (I note your use of man) must be all knowing to make good decisions and everywhere to enforce them... benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent... my my it is a demanding role... such an individual would probably need the assistance of a large group of educationed and dedicated individuals.... a clergy if you will...

If you want an example of what this formula would involve probably the criminalization of cigarettes. What do people get out of it? It cripples there health and provides virtually no return and yet thousands of people in Sydney alone do it regularly fully aware of what it will do to them.

Obviously they get something out of it or they wouldn't do it. They aren't being compelled to smoke they are chosing to.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

And I'd repeat myself less if you didn't repeat the questions so much.

That's because you still haven't answered the questions. Bringing up ciggarettes answers nothing. How do you know people's happiness is reduced by smoking? Have you ever considered that people enjoy smoking?

You're just backing up assertions with more assertions.

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

When I smoked I enjoyed the fuck out of it. However I made a rational decision that the long term health risks were not worth it so I stopped. Does my choice whe facing this decision place me in the new ruling class?

Also fun idea: lets say that Lentern's dictatorship of the academic is implemented what happens to academics who disagree with the idea? What happens when they discover that individuals can make better decisions for themselves? Will they

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

When I smoked I enjoyed the fuck out of it. However I made a rational decision that the long term health risks were not worth it so I stopped. Does my choice whe facing this decision place me in the new ruling class?

Also fun idea: lets say that Lentern's dictatorship of the academic is implemented what happens to academics who disagree with the idea? What happens when they discover that individuals can make better decisions for themselves? Will they

They're obviously not truly the Cream of Society and are faux academics and are really just part of the bourgeoise. I mean, why wouldn't you want to control people if you had the power to do so? It's so delicious.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Intelligence and knowledge does not equal virtuouness.

History continually shows us that if you give people power to Run other peoples lives they almost always end up abusing it for their own enrichment.

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Hitler was smart and he thought he was doing the best for his people.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

That's all well and good but people get cancer from all different sources and it can't always be helped.

Would you care if under a communist government everyone was unhappy and there was very prevalent suicide?

Of course and thats why we'd have a healthy stash of straight jackets and Prozac ready to work their magic. Also I have rejected the term communist numerous times already and will do so again.

Hello divine right of kings. Also you realise that as well as being powerful and benevolent this individual (I note your use of man) must be all knowing to make good decisions and everywhere to enforce them... benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent... my my it is a demanding role... such an individual would probably need the assistance of a large group of educationed and dedicated individuals.... a clergy if you will..

There are three books on my to read list at the moment but if you really advise it I'll add DROK to that list and should get round to it by late November. And yes I realize this person(there was nothing to note) would have their work cut of for them. You might call them a clergy i'd probably call them a parliament.

Obviously they get something out of it or they wouldn't do it. They aren't being compelled to smoke they are chosing to.When I smoked I enjoyed the fuck out of it. However I made a rational decision that the long term health risks were not worth it so I stopped. Does my choice whe facing this decision place me in the new ruling class?

You certainly did not enjoy it. You might have experienced relief in satisfying an addiction but the cigarettes would have done nothing for you. Your willpower is laudable but not possessed universally and thousands of people are speeding towards a future in which they are going to curse their friends and family for not stopping them. None of them will sit around thinking that whilst they are suffering hell on earth it was worth it for all those soothing puffs.

That's because you still haven't answered the questions. Bringing up ciggarettes answers nothing. How do you know people's happiness is reduced by smoking? Have you ever considered that people enjoy smoking?

You're just backing up assertions with more assertions.

Round up a dozen of lung cancer sufferers who will insist they'd do it all again and then I'll reconsider.

Also fun idea: lets say that Lentern's dictatorship of the academic is implemented what happens to academics who disagree with the idea? What happens when they discover that individuals can make better decisions for themselves? Will they

We'd throw them in the gulag; what do you think would happen exactly the same thing that happened in the seventies and eighties would happen: Deregulation. But those academics would be wrong in my humble and inferior opinion.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Intelligence and knowledge does not equal virtuouness.

History continually shows us that if you give people power to Run other peoples lives they almost always end up abusing it for their own enrichment.

And history has shown an abundance of anarchies that have gotten far hasn't it?

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

There's never been a stateless society...

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

You certainly did not enjoy it. You might have experienced relief in satisfying an addiction but the cigarettes would have done nothing for you.

How the fuck do you know what he was feeling?

Why is satisfying an addiction not real enjoyment? Would you say that enjoying food or sex is not real enjoyment because you are merely satisfying some urge?

Round up a dozen of lung cancer sufferers who will insist they'd do it all again and then I'll reconsider.

Yeah that emotionally loaded example focusing on how people would react if they had 20-20 hindsight totally proves your point.

If you rounded up a dozen people who have been crippled in car accidents and asked them if they would choose automobile transport knowing that it would destroy their lives what do you think they would say?

Does this prove that automobile transport is wrong and should be banned?

More to the point, could we round up 12 smokers who have lived a long and healthy life and ask them if they would do it all again? If they say yes, does that prove that smoking is in fact a good idea?

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

There's never been a stateless society...

Yes of course there hasn't been just like when that dude from the socialist alliance whom i decided I'd be polite to insisted that there hadn't ever actually been a socialist society and that all those societies that masquerade as socialist, Cuba, USSR, China etc were really capitalists using socialist rhetoric to justify their own greed etc etc. You and him would get along like peas in a pod both agreeing that nothing has ever existed.

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

No, there obviously has been a socialist society.

Point to one instance in history where there hasn't been a state.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

And history has shown an abundance of anarchies that have gotten far hasn't it?

If you're going to make claims like this the onus is on you point them out.

Medieval Ireland and Iceland were close to being anarchist and they lasted for centuries. They did not end up collapsing because they were defective. They were invaded by governments.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

How the fuck do you know what he was feeling?

Why is satisfying an addiction not real enjoyment? Would you say that enjoying food or sex is not real enjoyment because you are merely satisfying some urge?

I said addiction not urge and because I live on planet earth.

Yeah that emotionally loaded example focusing on how people would react if they had 20-20 hindsight totally proves your point.

If you rounded up a dozen people who have been crippled in car accidents and asked them if they would choose automobile transport knowing that it would destroy their lives what do you think they would say?

Does this prove that automobile transport is wrong and should be banned?

More to the point, could we round up 12 smokers who have lived a long and healthy life and ask them if they would do it all again? If they say yes, does that prove that smoking is in fact a good idea?

You may belittle emotion if you like but I find it quite important. I think avoiding extreme negative motions is quite a worthwhile pursuit far more so then this intangible miracle called freedom.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

No, there obviously has been a socialist society.

Point to one instance in history where there hasn't been a state.

Pre colonization Australia.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I said addiction not urge and because I live on planet earth.

I know, but why is addiction different. Why can we enjoy satisfying a natural urge, but not an urge that is the product of addiction.

I'm sure he lives on planet earth too. Why should we disbelieve him about how he feels in favor of the view of some stranger who doesn't even know him?

You may belittle emotion if you like but I find it quite important. I think avoiding extreme negative motions is quite a worthwhile pursuit far more so then this intangible miracle called freedom.

Typical Lentern. You ignore all the main points, and then hone in on one little thing like that.

I was not belittling emotion, merely the way you used to make your point. As I demonstrated that sort of reasoning can be used to justify all sorts of thing which I'm sure even you would disagree with.

Why don't you address the actual questions I raised for a change.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I know, but why is addiction different. Why can we enjoy satisfying a natural urge, but not an urge that is the product of addiction.

I'm sure he lives on planet earth too. Why should we disbelieve him about how he feels in favor of the view of some stranger who doesn't even know him?



Typical Lentern. You ignore all the main points, and then hone in on one little thing like that.

I was not belittling emotion, merely the way used it as though it some how proves everything.

Why don't you address the actual questions I raised for a change.

It is possible that one individuals makeup is such that he actually enjoys smoking yes but the vat majority are merely satisfying an addiction and far from enjoying it merely receive discomfort before returning to normal after satisfying the addiction. The chemical composition of a cigarette is not such that the majority of smokers receive any actual enjoyment from them.

You did belittle emotion and that was the main point. You asserted that examples which use emotion are irrelevant I asserted they are relevant because of the emotion.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

It is possible that one individuals makeup is such that he actually enjoys smoking yes but the vat majority are merely satisfying an addiction and far from enjoying it merely receive discomfort before returning to normal after satisfying the addiction. The chemical composition of a cigarette is not such that the majority of smokers receive any actual enjoyment from them.

How do you know this? What are you basing this on? Why should we believe you over millions of smokers who say they do enjoy it?

Is it not possible that although smokers do not get "high" they enjoy the ritual of smoking, and find it peaceful and relaxing?

You did belittle emotion and that was the main point. You asserted that examples which use emotion are irrelevant I asserted they are relevant because of the emotion.

I was not belittling emotion. If it came across that way, let me clear up now in no uncertain terms that I do not think emotion is unimportant.

My main point was not that using emotion is wrong, but that hypothetically constructing examples that assume people have 20-20 hindsight is wrong. I asked you a few pretty simple questions. Why do you find them so hard to answer?