why english is compulsary (3 Viewers)

[VicTrix]

i dont know why english is compulsary, its not like you and me are going to use it after the hsc, like is simile really going to help me find a job, you may say that english helps with elocution but seriously that could be learnt later on in life.

another bone to pick with english...who here really believes that shakespeare is still relevant to this day? lets take taming of the shrew for example, shakespeare's inner misogynistic values are illustrated, puhlease, how could we still learn this play in this day and age, how can one believe shakespeare being one of the best playwrights.

in my opinion, chemistry should be compulsary...sick and fed up about damn bogans not knowing anything and going on today tonight to complain about toxic chemicals ie: dihydrogen monoxide affecting their sex lives

From the thread title and post, I can see numerous errors - and you ask why english is compulsory?

 

[-may-cat-]

No, I don't pick on ESL students. That would be slack. My gripe is with people who are from English-speaking backgrounds who can't speak the language, and then go further and mock more capable students or complain that its compulsory when they have little ability in it.

What was the quote again? "The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their children to speak it."

Why do you have a problem with this? It's perfectly justifiable. Some people just plain aren't good at english, it doesn't make them stupid, it just means that they are are not good at one subject out of however many.

Think of a subject you are shit at, not that you don't try in it or anything but that you just find difficult to understand. Now imagine if you were forced to take that subject, are you telling me you wouldn't be pissed off about that? It's all very easy to say its not a problem and others should stop whining when you are good at it, but not everyone has your ability.

Further more, if you want to complain about less-capable students mocking more capable students, it might be an idea to stop doing the very same thing to them.

 

[Shadowdude]

My problem is that in my experience - the same people who complain they have little ability in it, mock those who do have ability in it. Now I know it's not good to generalise, but when English-speaking people cannot grasp basic English, there's a problem there. Of course there are exceptions such as those who have a mental ailment, but not everyone has that.

I mock them because they mock me. It's just my nature. I'll be quiet and sit on my corner, studying 4u maths if you want to take the stereotype, but if someone comes and starts mocking me - that's the mistake.

Also, if I was forced to take a subject I did not understand, I would not whinge and complain - I would spend the time I would've spent complaining into better understanding the subject. It's simple. Whinging and complaining does nothing.

 

[-may-cat-]

My problem is that in my experience - the same people who complain they have little ability in it, mock those who do have ability in it. Now I know it's not good to generalise, but when English-speaking people cannot grasp basic English, there's a problem there. Of course there are exceptions such as those who have a mental ailment, but not everyone has that.

I mock them because they mock me. It's just my nature. I'll be quiet and sit on my corner, studying 4u maths if you want to take the stereotype, but if someone comes and starts mocking me - that's the mistake.

Also, if I was forced to take a subject I did not understand, I would not whinge and complain - I would spend the time I would've spent complaining into better understanding the subject. It's simple. Whinging and complaining does nothing.

English speaking people do have a basic understanding of english, if they didn't they wouldn't be speaking the language. Are you trying to tell me that how people write on an internet forum truly reflects their writing ability? You have got to be kidding me right?

And to say complaining never achieves anything is ridiculous, of course it does, it creates awareness that there is a problem. Once again, it's all very easy to say 'i would just work and work and work till i was doing well in that subject' but peoples brains do not work like that. The fact is certain people and certain subjects do not mix, or do you expect everyone to be outstanding at absolutely everything? While marks can be improved upon this can take a hell of a lot of time, something which many HSC students simply do not have.

I say this as i am spectacularly bad at mathematics, i tried so hard to do better and it barely made a difference, mathematics and me simply do not compute. If i had been forced to take mathematics in the HSC i would have been very pissed off. My chosen career path has little to do with maths and by being forced to take it (and as a result do very badly in it) it would have really screwed with my chances of getting into university to do something i actually wanted to do.

This is a reality for tons of students who are bad at HSC english and it forces people to add years to their education by sidestepping the ATAR system to get in to their chosen university course. I don't believe it is fair, nor do i believe it is going to change any time in the near future but if people don't complain about it then it definitely never will.

 

[darkcounty]

No, I don't pick on ESL students. That would be slack. My gripe is with people who are from English-speaking backgrounds who can't speak the language, and then go further and mock more capable students or complain that its compulsory when they have little ability in it.

What was the quote again? "The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their children to speak it."

My problem is that in my experience - the same people who complain they have little ability in it, mock those who do have ability in it. Now I know it's not good to generalise, but when English-speaking people cannot grasp basic English, there's a problem there. Of course there are exceptions such as those who have a mental ailment, but not everyone has that.

I mock them because they mock me. It's just my nature. I'll be quiet and sit on my corner, studying 4u maths if you want to take the stereotype, but if someone comes and starts mocking me - that's the mistake.

Also, if I was forced to take a subject I did not understand, I would not whinge and complain - I would spend the time I would've spent complaining into better understanding the subject. It's simple. Whinging and complaining does nothing.

Gee, I don't mean to be pedantic but isn't that what you're doing right now?

 

[ninetypercent]

the board of studies like to pick on people like me who are crap at english

 

[Shadowdude]

Gee, I don't mean to be pedantic but isn't that what you're doing right now?

Sorry dark, you're incorrect. Whinging and complaining is me getting annoyed that you are making me feel bad, and the like. Complaining is getting angry and annoyed at something, whinging is just getting annoyed - in general, I'm neither.

English speaking people do have a basic understanding of english, if they didn't they wouldn't be speaking the language. Are you trying to tell me that how people write on an internet forum truly reflects their writing ability? You have got to be kidding me right?

In my experience, it does. People who write in garbled text messages where I come from write and speak in basic sentences - while people who use proper grammar have the best writing ability. That's just where I come from.

And to say complaining never achieves anything is ridiculous, of course it does, it creates awareness that there is a problem. Once again, it's all very easy to say 'i would just work and work and work till i was doing well in that subject' but peoples brains do not work like that. The fact is certain people and certain subjects do not mix, or do you expect everyone to be outstanding at absolutely everything? While marks can be improved upon this can take a hell of a lot of time, something which many HSC students simply do not have.

I say this as i am spectacularly bad at mathematics, i tried so hard to do better and it barely made a difference, mathematics and me simply do not compute. If i had been forced to take mathematics in the HSC i would have been very pissed off. My chosen career path has little to do with maths and by being forced to take it (and as a result do very badly in it) it would have really screwed with my chances of getting into university to do something i actually wanted to do.

This is a reality for tons of students who are bad at HSC english and it forces people to add years to their education by sidestepping the ATAR system to get in to their chosen university course. I don't believe it is fair, nor do i believe it is going to change any time in the near future but if people don't complain about it then it definitely never will.

Raising awareness is not the same as complaining. Complaining is basically ranting without offering an alternative. Raising awareness is saying, "This is wrong, but this is what we can do to fix it."

Besides, if people are bad at HSC English, just take Standard - from what I hear, it's pretty much the same thing. In my opinion, if anything should be compulsory, it should be English because it's the universal thing everyone knows.

 

[strasiotto]

I reckon there should be a compulsory subject in the HSC - but make it any 2 units English OR Maths. That way there is still a compulsay subject, but it offers a shitload more choice

Thats probably the best idea to come out of this topic.

Personally, I do extension one and two english, and I like it. However, your HSC is about doing the subjects your good at- and frankly making english compulsory just disadvantages those kids who are math based.

Like, maths isn't compulsory, and it is as important to learn as english is in the HSC (yes, lot of people won't use a lot of maths in their later life- but then a lot of people won't be using HSC english either).

Either make 1 unit of both compulsory, neither compulsory or a choice of either one- its just the fairest way to play at everyones strengths.

(and ftr I do believe that learning english is important).

 

[-may-cat-]

In my experience, it does. People who write in garbled text messages where I come from write and speak in basic sentences - while people who use proper grammar have the best writing ability. That's just where I come from.

Not in my experience.

Raising awareness is not the same as complaining. Complaining is basically ranting without offering an alternative. Raising awareness is saying, "This is wrong, but this is what we can do to fix it."

Why should people have to come up with their own solution? Evidence that the system is not working for large numbers of students should be more than enough; it is not the student bodies responsibility to come up with a solution to a problem they did not create.

Besides, it may not be this thread but in others but i know i have heard some pretty good alternatives to the current arrangement.

Besides, if people are bad at HSC English, just take Standard - from what I hear, it's pretty much the same thing. In my opinion, if anything should be compulsory, it should be English because it's the universal thing everyone knows.

You're not getting it are you? Many students are just not good at english. Regardless of the level of study, it is still english! Students should be free to make the best decisions for their education and choose all their subjects to their strengths. Why should any subject have to be compulsory?

'English because it's the universal thing everyone knows'

This statement is fucked up on so many levels.

 

[Shadowdude]

1. Well, we can't do much about that.

2. It's personal preference for me. If someone criticises something, they should offer a solution. Unfortunately Legal Studies is "This is wrong", "This is wrong", "This is wrong", with no mention on what we can do to fix it. But I digress.

3. As we're in an English speaking country, it's the language. It's like learning Chinese in Australia - it's useless, because only the Chinese people and students of it among a few others, speak it.

If they aren't good at English, well, that's tough luck. The scaling system requires a measuring stick, and English is the best one for it because it's the language. So it helps not only scaling, but it also assists people.

I read somewhere here that people are ridiculed when they enter the workplace because they are unable to write a coherent letter.

 

[-may-cat-]

3. As we're in an English speaking country, it's the language. It's like learning Chinese in Australia - it's useless, because only the Chinese people and students of it among a few others, speak it.

If they aren't good at English, well, that's tough luck. The scaling system requires a measuring stick, and English is the best one for it because it's the language. So it helps not only scaling, but it also assists people.

I read somewhere here that people are ridiculed when they enter the workplace because they are unable to write a coherent letter.

Let me remind you of what you said,

'English because it's the universal thing everyone knows'

No, its not just tough luck, you shouldn't be forced to take it. Why should students be forced to take subjects they are bad at in an institution that exists to get good marks for university, give me one good reason. I honestly believe the BoS could come up with a better system than what they have now.

And please don't give me 'it teaches you about the language' it does not, it teaches you to interpret, analyse and appreciate literature. The essay writing skills you learn in english are no different to the essay writing skills you learn in any other essay based subject. Furthermore, the essay writing skills they teach you in high school are bullshit anyway, if i was writing how i was a year ago i would be failing.

 

[Shadowdude]

I agree with you, because it doesn't teach the language. But in order to make scaling work, they need a measuring stick - because a circular referencing thing like they do now (how Subject A is scaled depends on how they go B, C, D, and how B is scaled is how they do in subject A, C, D, E, etc.).

I think English is compulsory because in uni you do write essays, extended responses, and the like - and for those who do 4u maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology - there isn't much essay writing there, if any, as essays are is done in humanities and English. Without a compulsory English, some students can theoretically skip doing any essays and be thrown into the deep end at uni.

Some essay practice is better than no practice.

 

[kaz1]

I agree with you, because it doesn't teach the language. But in order to make scaling work, they need a measuring stick - because a circular referencing thing like they do now (how Subject A is scaled depends on how they go B, C, D, and how B is scaled is how they do in subject A, C, D, E, etc.).

You don't need English for scaling to work.

 

[darkcounty]

Sorry dark, you're incorrect. Whinging and complaining is me getting annoyed that you are making me feel bad, and the like. Complaining is getting angry and annoyed at something, whinging is just getting annoyed - in general, I'm neither.

Mate, you asked for it. The reason I came down on you was because you had this superior attitude towards standard english people.

Besides, if people are bad at HSC English, just take Standard - from what I hear, it's pretty much the same thing. In my opinion, if anything should be compulsory, it should be English because it's the universal thing everyone knows.

HSC english does not necessarily equal the language. It's like when my parents say, "oh why aren't you getting 100% in english? You speak it everyday!" Yeh well, everyone knows how to communicate in English but not everyone possesses the level of linguistic ability to be proficient at the subject itself. This is not just a universal thing that everybody knows. Nor is it a reflection on their intelligence.

 

[Shadowdude]

I think a measuring stick makes scaling accurate, because some courses especially languages are taken by like three people. In having a measuring stick, you have mass numbers of people doing one subject meaning scaling is easier because you have a large number of people who do a variety of courses doing that one single subject. It is not needed, but it certainly helps.

dark, I also answered your language comment above to an extent. Also, I know about the many different types of intelligent - but unfortunately, the BoS only cares about some types of them, and as we are students of that, we must adapt.

I agree with you, because it doesn't teach the language. But in order to make scaling work, they need a measuring stick - because a circular referencing thing like they do now (how Subject A is scaled depends on how they go B, C, D, and how B is scaled is how they do in subject A, C, D, E, etc.).

I think English is compulsory because in uni you do write essays, extended responses, and the like - and for those who do 4u maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology - there isn't much essay writing there, if any, as essays are is done in humanities and English. Without a compulsory English, some students can theoretically skip doing any essays and be thrown into the deep end at uni.

Some essay practice is better than no practice.

 

[-may-cat-]

I agree with you, because it doesn't teach the language. But in order to make scaling work, they need a measuring stick - because a circular referencing thing like they do now (how Subject A is scaled depends on how they go B, C, D, and how B is scaled is how they do in subject A, C, D, E, etc.).

I think English is compulsory because in uni you do write essays, extended responses, and the like - and for those who do 4u maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology - there isn't much essay writing there, if any, as essays are is done in humanities and English. Without a compulsory English, some students can theoretically skip doing any essays and be thrown into the deep end at uni.

Some essay practice is better than no practice.

Then change the subject, make it so that it actually is relevant. That still doesn't really solve much as people would still be bad at it, but it would be better. I still believe they could change the way they scale things.

My boyfriend is in his 4th year of uni at UNSW doing a b/science, i could count the amount of essays he has written in that entire time on one hand. Such subjects at uni don't really require good essay writing skills.

And as i said, i have found the essay writing technique at uni so different to high school i have had to unlearn many things i was taught to do in year 12 (then again i study history, which is a highly essay based subject). You are thrown into the deep end at uni anyway cuz you're just so freakin clueless, shit you learn in highschool is literally an afterthought.

 

[Shadowdude]

I'm just not sure what subject they'd change it to. Maths and English were compulsory until Year 10 for a reason - so maybe Maths? Geography and History get too specialised in Senior year, along with sciences.

Also, isn't it to get a Masters or PhD and higher qualification you need to create an extended response? Is it a thesis? I forgot the word... but anyway, maybe at that level of Bachelor, essays aren't needed much.

Maycat, mind to enlighten us with uni essay writing? I can't really imagine any other way to write one except the way now, which is state your purpose, explain it, give evidence and link it.

 

[-may-cat-]

I'm just not sure what subject they'd change it to. Maths and English were compulsory until Year 10 for a reason - so maybe Maths? Geography and History get too specialised in Senior year, along with sciences.

Also, isn't it to get a Masters or PhD and higher qualification you need to create an extended response? Is it a thesis? I forgot the word... but anyway, maybe at that level of Bachelor, essays aren't needed much.

Maycat, mind to enlighten us with uni essay writing? I can't really imagine any other way to write one except the way now, which is state your purpose, explain it, give evidence and link it.

I have no idea what they should change it to, either way the problem is still the same. Regardless of what you learn at bachelors, very little of what you learn in highschool will have any relevance to what you do at master or doctorate level.

lol, of course, that is what an essay is, but it is how you write it. I look back at some of my history essays from the HSC and am amazed at how unsophisticated they are (these are essays that got very good marks by the way). In my experience it is not good enough to just have a garden variety thesis, give a bit of evidence, provide a link. If you want an HD, your expression must be ridiculously tight, you have to break massive arguments down into a few sentences without losing any authority. Everything must be explained, everything must be referenced perfectly, i lost marks for having commas in the wrong spot within my referencing for gods sake. And the research.. two three sources are not enough, try 20. It's not even good enough to just present that information well, your own (intelligent) input must be made, you have to challenge.

Its hard to explain, but HSC style essays just don't cut it at uni, they are not sophisticated enough, you don't get as many ideas through. You'll get a pass sure, but anything higher requires a lot more work.

EDIT: This is for history though, and history markers are fucking nazi's

 

[Shadowdude]

I'd assume so - history is that kind of subject... I've never heard of losing marks for comma's in the wrong place. Which is weird to me as I would assume that you would lose marks for not referencing in the first place instead of wrong referencing... but a comma?

They must have seriously nothing better to do with their lives.

 

[-may-cat-]

I'd assume so - history is that kind of subject... I've never heard of losing marks for comma's in the wrong place. Which is weird to me as I would assume that you would lose marks for not referencing in the first place instead of wrong referencing... but a comma?

They must have seriously nothing better to do with their lives.

Nah, they're pretty cool, unbelievably intelligent. Just fucking nazis. Oh, and if you don't reference, you instant fail, end of story.