English Discussion: ESL/Standard/Advanced Courses (3 Viewers)

[lyounamu]

1. Oh sorry, then be born in a non-English speaking background and come here approximately 4 years ago. If you did so, you will be able to do ESL like me.
It's not me who chose to be born at a certain place, you know.
Who on Earth wouldn't choose ESL when Adv seems too hard, ESL is easy, and standard has a terrible scaling, given that all of these options are available to the person?

2. And "hands get tired" thing is only what stupid/disabled people do.

Correction 1: English (Advanced) and English (Standard) have the same scaling. If you consider that fact, both English (Advanced) and English (Standard) have the higher scaling than ESL.

Correction 2: Some people have disability which restrict their ability to write at normal pace due to their muscular abnormality. People who get special provision with that must provide accurate details of medical record and the ongoing proof of such defect.

 

[ehtefaz.hedayet]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

Correction 1: English (Advanced) and English (Standard) have the same scaling. If you consider that fact, both English (Advanced) and English (Standard) have the higher scaling than ESL.

Correction 2: Some people have disability which restrict their ability to write at normal pace due to their muscular abnormality. People who get special provision with that must provide accurate details of medical record and the ongoing proof of such defect.

But in comparison with advanced, getting a band 6 in standard is quite difficult though.

 

[madsam]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

Who on Earth wouldn't choose ESL when Adv seems too hard, ESL is easy, and standard has a terrible scaling, given that all of these options are available to the person?



2009 HSC:
Up-To-Date Rank (DUX):
ESL 1st
Physics 1st
Chemistry 1st
Maths Extension 1 1st
Maths Extension 2 2nd hmm alright..

ATAR aim: really->99.5+
but ultimately->99.95 (perhaps in my dreams)

You uh, kinda prove my point right there, Adv english looks hard, ESL looks easy, why bother doing something hard like Adv when you can kick ass in ESL?


Oh, and sorry if i doubt that a person who is dux of their school and aiming for 99.5 ATAR cannot write in logical and coherent sentences.

 

[tonyharrison]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

Correction 1: English (Advanced) and English (Standard) have the same scaling.

WHAT?!
Are you sure?
Then why did i do advanced english if i could've done so much better in standard...

 

[lyounamu]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

But in comparison with advanced, getting a band 6 in standard is quite difficult though.

It depends. It's like deciding between 2 unit and 4 unit. There are people who make well-informed decisions and there are people who don't. There are drawbacks and benefits of doing 2 unit or 4 unit maths. 2 unit is relatively easy and if you have the ability to avoid silly error, you can score very high. In 4 unit, it doesn't work that way. So...depending on how you choose your subject, your ATAR fluctuates greatly.

So it really works this way: if you can do very well with relatively-easy-to-analyse standard texts as opposed to relatively-hard-to-analyse advanced texts, standard is for you. If you are someone who is more sophisticated with English, advanced is for you.

IMHO, the reason why there are only like handfuls getting Band 6 in Standard is because the students are not performing as well as Advanced people. Since the Standard is easier, the cut-off for Band 6 will be appropriately placed so that Standard students need to score to certain level to get Band 6 as opposed to Advanced who need to score to different level.

In order to establish this "level", they use Paper 1 as a measuring stick or something of that sort. So the measure that BOS takes here is quite fair.
So what I am saying here is...choose subjects that suit you whether it be standard or advanced. You won't be disadvantaged in anyway

 

[shady145]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

WHAT?!
Are you sure?
Then why did i do advanced english if i could've done so much better in standard...

yea they scale the same, do you want to see 'Advanced english' or 'Standard english' on your record of achievement?

 

[ehtefaz.hedayet]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

It depends. It's like deciding between 2 unit and 4 unit. There are people who make well-informed decisions and there are people who don't. There are drawbacks and benefits of doing 2 unit or 4 unit maths. 2 unit is relatively easy and if you have the ability to avoid silly error, you can score very high. In 4 unit, it doesn't work that way. So...depending on how you choose your subject, your ATAR fluctuates greatly.

So it really works this way: if you can do very well with relatively-easy-to-analyse standard texts as opposed to relatively-hard-to-analyse advanced texts, standard is for you. If you are someone who is more sophisticated with English, advanced is for you.

IMHO, the reason why there are only like handfuls getting Band 6 in Standard is because the students are not performing as well as Advanced people. Since the Standard is easier, the cut-off for Band 6 will be appropriately placed so that Standard students need to score to certain level to get Band 6 as opposed to Advanced who need to score to different level.

In order to establish this "level", they use Paper 1 as a measuring stick or something of that sort. So the measure that BOS takes here is quite fair.
So what I am saying here is...choose subjects that suit you whether it be standard or advanced. You won't be disadvantaged in anyway

Yeh true, it does quite depend on the "level" chosen in order to have better performance, Thanks man

 

[lyounamu]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

yea they scale the same, do you want to see 'Advanced english' or 'Standard english' on your record of achievement?

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Everyone's only motivation to choose advanced over standard, aye?

 

[shady145]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Everyone's only motivation to choose advanced over standard, aye?

lol
of course there are others, but for one of my friends this was the biggest motivator to stay in advanced XD

 

[Freckles14]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

yea they scale the same, do you want to see 'Advanced english' or 'Standard english' on your record of achievement?

Hey, at least they don't call it "Stupid English". Then it'd make more of a difference. Standard is just like, normal English - or as normal as it gets in this crappy course.

 

[ehtefaz.hedayet]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

Who cares, English is just gay altogether.

 

[boganxcore]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

i remember my teacher in year 10 was trying to convince me to do standard english... and i ended up doing english extension 2. god he was a dickhead

 

[study-freak]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

Correction 1: English (Advanced) and English (Standard) have the same scaling. If you consider that fact, both English (Advanced) and English (Standard) have the higher scaling than ESL.

Correction 2: Some people have disability which restrict their ability to write at normal pace due to their muscular abnormality. People who get special provision with that must provide accurate details of medical record and the ongoing proof of such defect.

In regard to correction 1: sorry, I meant scaled marks.

In regard to correction 2: Yea, I did include "disabled" people in my post though.

 

[study-freak]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

why the fuck do you do ESL
It's fuckers like you that cheat the system
Do you also apply for special privileges because your "hand gets tired" when writing essays?

You uh, kinda prove my point right there, Adv english looks hard, ESL looks easy, why bother doing something hard like Adv when you can kick ass in ESL?


Oh, and sorry if i doubt that a person who is dux of their school and aiming for 99.5 ATAR cannot write in logical and coherent sentences.

I answered your question. You asked me "why" I studied ESL and so I said it's because I had that option available for me and I did not want to do Eng Adv, which seems hard, and Std, which is infamous for its low scaled marks (corrected thanks to iyounamu).

And yes, there, you got my point. Why bother studying harder stuff when easier stuff will give me more marks? I have always thought that the HSC is all about maximising one's marks/ATAR.

How does this prove your point? I didn't "cheat" in anyway. Let's suppose that you chose General Maths instead of 3 unit maths, although you clearly had the option of choosing 3 unit maths.
Then I guess you would be cheating in this case, according to your logic?
Another example: A person thinks that Chemistry is too hard for him/her. Thus, the person chose senior science instead. Wow, this person is a cheater according to your logic again.


And about the last highlighted part, are you talking about yourself?

 

[madsam]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

How does this prove your point? I didn't "cheat" in anyway. Let's suppose that you chose General Maths instead of 3 unit maths, although you clearly had the option of choosing 3 unit maths.
Then I guess you would be cheating in this case, according to your logic?
Another example: A person thinks that Chemistry is too hard for him/her. Thus, the person chose senior science instead. Wow, this person is a cheater according to your logic again.


And about the last highlighted part, are you talking about yourself?

Nobody is forced to do any subject other than english. The option to choose ESL over standard or advanced should only be available to students who are truly unable to cope with the english language (ie not the people aiming to beat 99.5% of the state) If you are capable of doing standard, like you obviously are, then you shouldn't be able to choose ESL simply because you don't like English.

The point of ESL isn't to be there as an "easy option" for students, it is designed as a course for those genuinely unable to grasp English.
It is people who exploit this, selecting the subject because " I had that option available for me and I did not want to do Eng Adv, which seems hard"
And really, if you are able to score very well in MX1, MX2, phys and chem then you are obviously bright, able, and willing to learn, so choosing ESL simply because you have that option available shows how you wish to exploit the system to maximize your ATAR.

I'm not saying im the best at english, but im not shit at it either, i'm expecting mid band 5 in advanced, so i'm pretty capable when it comes to English, unlike you apparently

Those examples are shit, doing 3unit or 4unit have benefits, namely counting as another unit towards your HSC, if a person finds chem hard and switches to senior science then that's not that big of a deal because odds are they struggled in chem

Really, English is the only subject that has an ATAR approved course for easy as fuck subjects that count towards your ATAR
If for example the 'Life skills' courses such as Mathematics life skills because ATAR counting courses, and suddenly there was an influx of 99.5 ATAR students previously doing 2unit maths and each getting 100/100 on the test, then i would classify that as cheating in the same was people who shouldn't struggle in English choose ESL

 

[study-freak]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

Nobody is forced to do any subject other than english. The option to choose ESL over standard or advanced should only be available to students who are truly unable to cope with the english language (ie not the people aiming to beat 99.5% of the state) If you are capable of doing standard, like you obviously are, then you shouldn't be able to choose ESL simply because you don't like English.

The point of ESL isn't to be there as an "easy option" for students, it is designed as a course for those genuinely unable to grasp English.
It is people who exploit this, selecting the subject because " I had that option available for me and I did not want to do Eng Adv, which seems hard"
And really, if you are able to score very well in MX1, MX2, phys and chem then you are obviously bright, able, and willing to learn, so choosing ESL simply because you have that option available shows how you wish to exploit the system to maximize your ATAR.

I'm not saying im the best at english, but im not shit at it either, i'm expecting mid band 5 in advanced, so i'm pretty capable when it comes to English, unlike you apparently

Those examples are shit, doing 3unit or 4unit have benefits, namely counting as another unit towards your HSC, if a person finds chem hard and switches to senior science then that's not that big of a deal because odds are they struggled in chem

Really, English is the only subject that has an ATAR approved course for easy as fuck subjects that count towards your ATAR
If for example the 'Life skills' courses such as Mathematics life skills because ATAR counting courses, and suddenly there was an influx of 99.5 ATAR students previously doing 2unit maths and each getting 100/100 on the test, then i would classify that as cheating in the same was people who shouldn't struggle in English choose ESL

Now, you are composing a more logical argument than before.

I do agree that for some, ESL is an easy option.
However, I disagree with your statement about exploiting the system.

This is because I do think that other ESL students and I had similar opportunities to study English. I know that some find English language harder than others but this shouldn't prevent those who find English easier from doing ESL.
I did try very hard (without exaggerating) to study English since I came here in Year 9. If my English language ability is good enough to cope with the demands of standard English course, that's a result of my effort, in my opinion.
Should a person who tried harder be forced to choose a harder course (which means it's harder to gain marks in the course) than a person who didn't try as hard?
My answer to that question is definitely no.

I think regardless of aptitude and past/present performance, people who had similar opportunities to study English should have equal (or approximately equal) rights to choose the English course that they would like to choose.

I guess we have conflicting perspectives.


And about the highlighted part, I'm just wondering from which part of my posts you got the impression that I am incompetent at English?

 

[lyounamu]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

IMHO, doing ESL =/= exploiting the system.

Trust me, it's not. There are people who would have done way better if they were born here because they wouldn't have any language barrier.

I would have done ESL as well if I could (thanks my mum for writing a letter to school). TBH, I studied fairly hard for English.

Whenever I cruise through other subjects with minimal amount of studying, English somehow requires triple the amount I study for other subjects and I still don't perform as well as other subjects. That's because there are areas which I will never excel in without having English as my first language. You will only really understand what I am saying if you have other language as your first language.

 

[study-freak]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

IMHO, doing ESL =/= exploiting the system.

Trust me, it's not. There are people who would have done way better if they were born here because they wouldn't have any language barrier.

I would have done ESL as well if I could (thanks my mum for writing a letter to school). TBH, I studied fairly hard for English.

Whenever I cruise through other subjects with minimal amount of studying, English somehow requires triple the amount I study for other subjects and I still don't perform as well as other subjects. That's because there are areas which I will never excel in without having English as my first language. You will only really understand what I am saying if you have other language as your first language.

Wow, a letter?! lol..
That's harsh. I knew that your mum didn't allow you to choose ESL but I didn't know that she even sent a letter. Hmm... that's quite an extreme action.

 

[lyounamu]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

Wow, a letter?! lol..
That's harsh. I knew that your mum didn't allow you to choose ESL but I didn't know that she even sent a letter. Hmm... that's quite an extreme action.

My mum probably had madsam's point of view. She also thought that I would totally fail Uni if I were to choose ESL for my HSC. Trust me...she thought ESL was like re-learning alphabet or something

 

[ehtefaz.hedayet]

Re: Which subjects would you achieve the top band in?

Now, you are composing a more logical argument than before.

I do agree that for some, ESL is an easy option.
However, I disagree with your statement about exploiting the system.

This is because I do think that other ESL students and I had similar opportunities to study English. I know that some find English language harder than others but this shouldn't prevent those who find English easier from doing ESL.
I did try very hard (without exaggerating) to study English since I came here in Year 9. If my English language ability is good enough to cope with the demands of standard English course, that's a result of my effort, in my opinion.
Should a person who tried harder be forced to choose a harder course (which means it's harder to gain marks in the course) than a person who didn't try as hard?
My answer to that question is definitely no.

I think regardless of aptitude and past/present performance, people who had similar opportunities to study English should have equal (or approximately equal) rights to choose the English course that they would like to choose.

I guess we have conflicting perspectives.


And about the highlighted part, I'm just wondering from which part of my posts you got the impression that I am incompetent at English?

I must say your English is very profound.