Law students and their unwarranted ego. (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Geologic
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GUSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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lol k ur fairly committed xD
but yea sadly i have no opinion as i do not know any/come across any law students =S lol
Original post aside as to be honest, most of the specifics contained there do not warrant an intelligible reply as it would not achieve anything -
In so far as the "law isn't harder than other degrees" whinge-fest goes, yes - law is not the most difficult thing on the planet. Many degrees have a similar or higher level of degree of difficulty attached to them. But as a result - they also have a similar/higher level of prestige attached to them. Only an "anti-law-student non-law-student" would hold such a 'passionate' view in this regard. Plenty of students across a broad range of areas of study are pompous, vain, egotistical and obnoxious, just as plenty of law students are not.
Given that most law students study both law and another discipline - it is ridiculous to say that we have no idea about the difficulty of other degrees and are wrong to say that by comparison, we have found a law degree is harder.
For example, my non-law degree was a business degree and I am yet to encounter anyone who completed a business/law degree of any major who holds the view that their business degree was anything but remarkably less effort and less intellectually demanding than their law degree. And I don't mean "Ps get degrees" students, i mean people who are committed hard working students so this view is not a mere reflection of their lack of care, effort or ability.
I agree that you can't compare all degrees, eg engineering or medicine or pure maths against law as they involve different types of intelligences and different ways of thinking etc. However I don't get why people get so offended when I or friends say we personally found a business degree remarkably easier than a law degree with the exception of maybe 2 units in the last semester.
Its not a 'superiority' issue, it's just a person's view as to what they found easier or harder. People have different skills and abilities and learn differently, it's not a criticism of a 'non-law student' as stupid or inferior... eg whilst some people have said to me that nursing is an easier degree than law (meaning friends I know who are doing a nursing degree) I personally think it would be much harder for me than a law degree and much more stressful.
With respect to the discussion as to clerkships - it is silly to base an argument as to 'success' and 'career prospects' and therefore the attitudes of law students on clerkship opportunities. Working in a top tier firm as a solicitor is just one of many things that you can do with a law degree. Such clerkships predominantly cater for students interested in particular fields, and cater for those who want to enter private practice. Excellent law graduates are not confined to commercial oriented private legal practitioners.
Some of the best lawyers/law graduates are those who recognise that whilst they may have the ability to enter the 'prestigious' jobs that they would prefer to do something enjoy more. Alternatively there are those who may not be as capable as law students but work really hard to get to those prestigious positions. And then there are the freakish genius students who excel in study and excel in a prestigious position. It is no different to any other field where people make the choice to become employed in a certain area and there is nothing wrong with being proud of that choice whatever the field, including law.
In so far as the "law isn't harder than other degrees" whinge-fest goes, yes - law is not the most difficult thing on the planet. Many degrees have a similar or higher level of degree of difficulty attached to them. But as a result - they also have a similar/higher level of prestige attached to them. Only an "anti-law-student non-law-student" would hold such a 'passionate' view in this regard. Plenty of students across a broad range of areas of study are pompous, vain, egotistical and obnoxious, just as plenty of law students are not.
Given that most law students study both law and another discipline - it is ridiculous to say that we have no idea about the difficulty of other degrees and are wrong to say that by comparison, we have found a law degree is harder.
For example, my non-law degree was a business degree and I am yet to encounter anyone who completed a business/law degree of any major who holds the view that their business degree was anything but remarkably less effort and less intellectually demanding than their law degree. And I don't mean "Ps get degrees" students, i mean people who are committed hard working students so this view is not a mere reflection of their lack of care, effort or ability.
I agree that you can't compare all degrees, eg engineering or medicine or pure maths against law as they involve different types of intelligences and different ways of thinking etc. However I don't get why people get so offended when I or friends say we personally found a business degree remarkably easier than a law degree with the exception of maybe 2 units in the last semester.
Its not a 'superiority' issue, it's just a person's view as to what they found easier or harder. People have different skills and abilities and learn differently, it's not a criticism of a 'non-law student' as stupid or inferior... eg whilst some people have said to me that nursing is an easier degree than law (meaning friends I know who are doing a nursing degree) I personally think it would be much harder for me than a law degree and much more stressful.
With respect to the discussion as to clerkships - it is silly to base an argument as to 'success' and 'career prospects' and therefore the attitudes of law students on clerkship opportunities. Working in a top tier firm as a solicitor is just one of many things that you can do with a law degree. Such clerkships predominantly cater for students interested in particular fields, and cater for those who want to enter private practice. Excellent law graduates are not confined to commercial oriented private legal practitioners.
Some of the best lawyers/law graduates are those who recognise that whilst they may have the ability to enter the 'prestigious' jobs that they would prefer to do something enjoy more. Alternatively there are those who may not be as capable as law students but work really hard to get to those prestigious positions. And then there are the freakish genius students who excel in study and excel in a prestigious position. It is no different to any other field where people make the choice to become employed in a certain area and there is nothing wrong with being proud of that choice whatever the field, including law.
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hollaholla
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Awesome post OP!. However...ALL do not fall in this category. I know a few people doing law ...some of them are terrible whereas some of them are pure gems.
"Most law students end up working for legal aid" - actually legal aid's biggest complaint seems to be under-resourced and under-staffed
I can't tell whether you're serious or not but if you are - have a look at the legal aid websites and other info around, you'll see how untrue that is. And actually the grad pay is pretty good, their grad program (in NSW at least) is around the $60k mark which is more than decent for a first year out grad program position, especially when you consider the other benefits as far as work arrangements etc that come with working there.Funny how people accuse lawyers of being money hungry, yet others will use making more money as the first line of 'defence' the majority of the time... Lawyers can't both be ripping off the world and earning a fortune at the same time as being worthless drones who earn nothing compared to other 'better' fields
Interesting, because I know several people in Legal Aid and they'd be interested to see where this 60k is coming from."Most law students end up working for legal aid" - actually legal aid's biggest complaint seems to be under-resourced and under-staffed
Funny how people accuse lawyers of being money hungry, yet others will use making more money as the first line of 'defence' the majority of the time... Lawyers can't both be ripping off the world and earning a fortune at the same time as being worthless drones who earn nothing compared to other 'better' fields
Secondly what are you even talking about. Read my edit, I said that;
,
??
Well, technically they can. There can be lawyers ripping off the world, and lawyers that are worthless drones.
Come on, did you read the OP? Was it worth writing an essay response to?
Re legal aid - like I said, have a look on their website at the info about the graduate program. The rate of pay is there. Also I have worked at legal aid so my view doesn't come just from their ads and website info but also from talking to solicitors while I was working there.
I had assumed context would imply as much but since you didn't seem to find that implication - I was referring to the broad generalization that 'all lawyers are money hungry" which is often nonsensically put directly alongside the generalization that " all
lawyers overrate themselves because they don't earn as much as they make out they do"
ClockworkSoldier
Clockwork Army
You just rephrased the point of that post...Of course a law student would find doing that hard as they aren't trained/educated in that field. And just the same - you would find it hard to complete tasks of a comparable level of skill in law without being trained/educated in that field.
That argument really just shows that each field is different not that any field is 'harder'. I mean, all you need to do is rock up to any court in Australia and watch for an hour or so to see the difficulty you face if you don't know what you are doing and aren't versed in the legal field and go it on your own. It would be comparable to your average idiot pulling apart their houses electrical system because they think they could wing it and figure it out. Not necessarily more or less difficult to educate yourself in how to do these tasks, but disastrous all the same
This is part of the problem with this view that "all law students" are obnoxious - a lack of physical movement in a profession does not negate it's difficulty or the level of commitment required to be really good at what you do. It's just the same as the view most people have of accountants or financial analysts and other 'non-hands on' fields. A non-tangible 'problem' may be just as difficult to resolve as a tangible, hands on one and vice versa.
Good job XD.
Great responses from tessery and melsc. Only thing I'd like to add is that it's not even necessary to have to defend who you are or what you do to anyone, particularly to someone as obnoxious as the OP. Although, I do understand the impulse to respond to someone who is hatefully discriminating against you as a person just because of what you study.
The only other thing I'd like to point out is the funny irony of OP railing against a group of people for being arrogant and obnoxious, while himself using some of the most self-important, discriminatory, and exclusionary language I've seen in a while...foul miasma? All seems a little hypocritical to me.
Geologic, you sound like a really aggressive and unpleasant person. Maybe you lost 3 good friends because you alienated them by having such extreme views.
Or maybe it all just a hilarious silly joke, like calling ALL engineers socially inept
The only other thing I'd like to point out is the funny irony of OP railing against a group of people for being arrogant and obnoxious, while himself using some of the most self-important, discriminatory, and exclusionary language I've seen in a while...foul miasma? All seems a little hypocritical to me.
Geologic, you sound like a really aggressive and unpleasant person. Maybe you lost 3 good friends because you alienated them by having such extreme views.
Or maybe it all just a hilarious silly joke, like calling ALL engineers socially inept
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Atlas
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Geologic - whilst I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your views on law students. Just wanted to say that your rant was very amusing to read and well-written and I haven't seen anyone use the word 'miasma' in a long while
ClockworkSoldier
Clockwork Army
You neg repped me without understanding that post.Of course a law student would find doing that hard as they aren't trained/educated in that field. And just the same - you would find it hard to complete tasks of a comparable level of skill in law without being trained/educated in that field.
That argument really just shows that each field is different not that any field is 'harder'. I mean, all you need to do is rock up to any court in Australia and watch for an hour or so to see the difficulty you face if you don't know what you are doing and aren't versed in the legal field and go it on your own. It would be comparable to your average idiot pulling apart their houses electrical system because they think they could wing it and figure it out. Not necessarily more or less difficult to educate yourself in how to do these tasks, but disastrous all the same
This is part of the problem with this view that "all law students" are obnoxious - a lack of physical movement in a profession does not negate it's difficulty or the level of commitment required to be really good at what you do. It's just the same as the view most people have of accountants or financial analysts and other 'non-hands on' fields. A non-tangible 'problem' may be just as difficult to resolve as a tangible, hands on one and vice versa.
I wasn't saying that my skills are in any way harder to learn etc...
Simply, in your own words: "That argument really just shows that each field is different not that any field is 'harder'"
I was comparing my skill set with what they considered 'harder', to show what I have to do. To level out their perspective.
COMPREHENSION skills are a good thing to have. Jeez!
lol, +1I haven't seen anyone use the word 'miasma' in a long while
ClockworkSoldier
Clockwork Army
Because the post preceding it was implying the same - in Frigid's and your own words again:
See what he did there?Frigid said:
"True, but not all simultaneously while being under such time constraints that if a cue is missed, the entire show grinds to a halt XD. " - Was again, showing that the tasks are different, not harder.Lara1986 said:
C'mon now. Don't tell me you didn't notice this.
Marmalade.
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In my experience, approximately half of the male law students I meet are snobby douchebags. Perhaps 20% of female law students are like this.
will-anal said:
A friend of mine from Uni has just landed a 4 year contract with WA legal aid. 55k, first year out, 65k 2nd, 75k 3rd, 4th year negotiable..... Not to mention the subsidized accommodation and relocation expenses...... Legal Aid shouldn't be looked down on, nor should the lawyers who work for it. The mentality that they are second rate lawyers is unfortunately a gross misconception.
And to the OP. Awesome post. After five years of law school, I can genuinely say I'm sick of the people in it that you described. Majority really are a homogeneous bunch of wankers.
When most people ask me what I study I tend not to tell them law. They seem to treat you differently. I hate that. So i just generally tell them i'm enrolled in arts but I don't study a whole lot
. Either that or I'm a full time cigarette lighter repairman. If pressured, I might tell them i dabble in a bit of law.... but I really hate doing so given the reputation that law students have. I cringe every time I hear someone say they study law like that makes them superior to someone else or to other degrees in general.
It reminds me of a party I once went to... A girl was there arguing over something stupid.... Someone called her argument stupid.... She responded "excuse me, I study law at monash". Gah. I nearly had a coronary when I overheard that.
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Omnidragon
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The ones all worked up by the OP are probably the sort he's referring to. Falling right into his trap. Oh well at least you showed your true colours.
Clearly we are too busy being altruistic.
Marmalade.
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If someone asked me to name someone who is most like the the douches that the OP is talking about, I would've said you. And that was before you made that post.