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Does God exist? (15 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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Name_Taken

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wait how can an atheist be a fundamentalist?
Well, aren't they all, sort of by default?

To subscribe to the athiestic worldview, one simply has to accept its single assertion, simply that God doesn't exist.

Since all athiests must religiously (ironically) adhere to this "fundamental" then doesn't that make them fundamentalists, in an unusal sort of way?
 

moll.

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Well, aren't they all, sort of by default?

To subscribe to the athiestic worldview, one simply has to accept its single assertion, simply that God doesn't exist.

Since all athiests must religiously (ironically) adhere to this "fundamental" then doesn't that make them fundamentalists, in an unusal sort of way?
I very much doubt that you'd ever find any more than a slight minority who assert with 100% certainty that God doesn't exist.
Most 'atheists' will probably be in a similar boat to myself: an agnostic who just doesn't have any need for God in their everyday life and who thinks organised religion is a terrible idea.
 

moll.

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Right, so a lack of evidence against something now constitutes proof of it?
Fuck, they make them retarded these days.
 

JasmineNuytre

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Right, so a lack of evidence against something now constitutes proof of it?
Fuck, they make them retarded these days.
I never said I have a specific example, the poster asked a question on how an atheist could be a funamentalist, and I provided an example, IF an atheist would physically assault someone based on the fact they believe in God, they would be considered fundamentalist, no?.

Learn to read before spouting your inane comments.
 
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trickx

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FreeHovind - Kent Hovind's Creation Seminars

watch these vids. they provide a strong arguement for the creationists
ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?!

Kent Hovind is a goddam fraud! He gets destroyed in every debate and just recites the same pathetic arguments over and over, without acknowledging the complete asswhooping theyve gotten.

Educate yourself about evolution here.
[youtube]IBHEsEshhLs[/youtube]

And listen to Hovind getting owned by a college student here.
YouTube - Kent Hovind gets owned on his radio show!Part 1 of 3
YouTube - Kent Hovind gets owned on his radio show!Part 2 of 3
YouTube - Kent Hovind gets owned on his radio show!Part 3 of 3
 

Name_Taken

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ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?!

Kent Hovind is a goddam fraud! He gets destroyed in every debate and just recites the same pathetic arguments over and over, without acknowledging the complete asswhooping theyve gotten.

Educate yourself about evolution here.
[youtube]IBHEsEshhLs[/youtube]

And listen to Hovind getting owned by a college student here.
YouTube - Kent Hovind gets owned on his radio show!Part 1 of 3
YouTube - Kent Hovind gets owned on his radio show!Part 2 of 3
YouTube - Kent Hovind gets owned on his radio show!Part 3 of 3
The theory of evolution is not scientific. It is important that we know what science is and are able to distinguish between “science” and what is “falsely called science.” A typical definition of science is that it is a branch of study concerned with observation and classification of facts, especially with the establishment of verifiable general laws, chiefly by induction and hypothesis. Webster defines science as “systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation…”. You can look at various dictionaries and get slightly different definitions but the key words will be “observation,” “experimentation,” “verifiable,” “testable,” and “repeatable.” In other words, if it cannot be observed, repeated, verified or subject to experimentation, then it is not scientific. Evolution has never been observed, repeated, verified nor has an experiment ever been performed regarding it. Thus evolution is not scientific.

The theory of evolution contradicts known scientific laws such as the law of biogenesis, the law of kinds and the second law of thermodynamics. The law of biogenesis is that life can only come from other life. Life does not spring from non-living things. This is what we observe and what the Bible teaches in Genesis 1, where various forms of life were created to reproduce. Perhaps the most difficult problem that evolutionists face is the question of how self-replicating life systems could form from non-living, non-replicating systems. Some evolutionists propose that in the beginning small inorganic molecules such as water, methane and ammonia, somehow by chance chemical reactions, formed amino acids. These amino acids supposedly combined to form proteins and eventually living cells. The idea that living creatures can be produced naturally from non-living substances is called spontaneous generation. Never has this been observed, repeated or verified, and thus this idea is not scientific. The law of kinds is that life reproduces after its own kind. The phrase after his kind is used at least ten times in the creation account (Genesis 1:11, 12, 21, 24, 25). This applies to both the plant and the animal kingdoms. Specifically mentioned Specifically mentioned are grasses, herbs, trees, fishes, birds, beasts and creeping things. What this means is that pear trees produce pears and not bananas or monkeys. Cows have calves and horses beget colts. In other words, “like produces like.” The theory of evolution contradicts the “law of kinds ” by saying that one kind of creature evolved into another kind. The second law of thermodynamics shows that systems left to themselves go to a condition of greater disorder, probability and randomness. Hurricanes do not build buildings. Explosions in junkyards do not build airplanes. Earthquakes do not create living systems. Systems go from order to disorder. This contradicts evolutionary theory, which assumes that disordered particles eventually evolved to form ordered life. The second law of thermodynamics also contradicts the idea that a Big Bang Explosion could have produced an ordered universe. For an ordered pattern to occur, there must be a designer and energy. The orderliness of the universe and the complexity of living organisms confirm the work of a divine Creator. Our ordered universe could not have developed from chaos. There are no exceptions to the second law of thermodynamics. Evolutionists try to point out that snowflakes forming, trees growing and embryos developing are exceptions to the second law. Snowflakes and other crystals form because of the sizes and shapes of atoms, ions and molecules that predetermine the shapes of the crystals. For example, if you dropped some marbles on a Chinese checkerboard, the marbles would take the pattern of the indentations on the board. This “disorder to order” is really not that at all, but is rather that the marbles are falling into a pre-designed order. Likewise, the order of a growing tree or a developing embryo has been pre-encoded into the cells of these systems.

Both Creation and evolution are religious views. The issue is not religion vs. science, but religion vs. religion. Any concept regarding origins is not scientific, in that origins were not and cannot be observed, repeated or verified. Scientists can only deal with present evidence. The choice of which theory to accept becomes a matter of faith. To accept something without evidence requires faith. Hebrews 11:1-3 states, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen…By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.” The Christian believes that God created the universe, life and man, while the evolutionist believes that the universe, life and man somehow evolved without any supernatural direction. “Evolution cannot be proved or tested, it can only be believed.” Considering the majesty, beauty and complexity of the earth and universe, it is relatively easy to believe in Creation. But to believe that dead matter could create life, and have absolutely no evidence, requires faith of another order. Some believe that a cosmic egg of energy exploded to form chemical elements, stars , galaxies and finally people. Some even have the faith to believe that life was planted on earth by an unknown civilization from outer space. Since evolution cannot be observed, repeated or verified, it is no more “scientific” and no less “religious” than Creation. One person was asked, “Why aren’t you an evolutionist?” His reply was, “I don’t have enough faith to believe that random particles arranged themselves into ordered life.”

The zeal of Darwinists to evangelize the world with their theory makes it also seem like a religion. They see evolution as a light which illuminates all facts. To them evolution is the god they worship. Christians however recognize that the great Creator became our Savior and all of God’s fullness dwells in Him. Jesus Christ is the Light of the world and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.
I <3 evolutionists.
 

Name_Taken

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so do u actually agree with the stuff in that big quote u just posted?

evolution is a fact, u know

coz i can go thru every bit of that text n debunk it all, but u probably won't read it lol
Well I didn't write it, it isn't my arguement, but despite that, I don't see any flaws in it's reasoning.

Exactly how is evolution a "fact"?
 

Will Shakespear

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Well I didn't write it, it isn't my arguement, but despite that, I don't see any flaws in it's reasoning.

Exactly how is evolution a "fact"?
No of course not, I was just wondering if u generally agreed with what it said.

Anyways I'll go thru it point by point n hopefully convince u there's plenty of flaws, lol
 

Will Shakespear

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Few points to start off with:

- Evolution and Christianity are not mutually exclusive. Many evolutionary biologists are Christians, even high profile ones like Ken Miller. Some churches including the Roman Catholics accept evolution. Some Christians say evolution occured, but God started the process off. Accepting evolution doesn't undermine Christian belief, it justraises some problems for fundamentalist interpretations of Genesis.

- Evolution is not just what Darwin wrote. The theory has been MASSIVELY updated since "The Origin of Species". Darwin didn't know about DNA, or genes, or many other aspects of modern biology. In particular Mendel's laws of inheritance were integrated in the theory in the 20th century (the "modern synthesis").

- Evolution is a fact & a theory. A 'fact' is just something you can observe. For example, all objects tend to fall towards the centre of the Earth. The Theory of Gravity attempts to explain why this happens. The current best theory of gravity in science is Einstein's General Relativity. A theory is a set of scientifcally supported explanations for the facts observed. Gravity is a fact as well as a theory, so is evolution.

Evolution is a change in the frequency of different alleles (varieties of a gene) in a population over successive generations. This is a fact. Theories explain how evolution takes place, thru natural selection, genetic drift, etc.

The theory of evolution is not scientific. It is important that we know what science is and are able to distinguish between “science” and what is “falsely called science.” A typical definition of science is that it is a branch of study concerned with observation and classification of facts, especially with the establishment of verifiable general laws, chiefly by induction and hypothesis. Webster defines science as “systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation…”. You can look at various dictionaries and get slightly different definitions but the key words will be “observation,” “experimentation,” “verifiable,” “testable,” and “repeatable.” In other words, if it cannot be observed, repeated, verified or subject to experimentation, then it is not scientific. Evolution has never been observed, repeated, verified nor has an experiment ever been performed regarding it. Thus evolution is not scientific.
This is either ignorance or a lie.

Firstly, a scientific hypothesis is one which can be falsified. The hypothesis that organisms share a common ancestor and have changed over time thru evolution could be falsified by observation, e.g. finding a mammal fossil in the pre-cambrian. Hence the theory of evoultion is a scientific theory. The theory that god created/designed the universe is not scientific, because it's not falsifiable.

Evolution has been observed in nature and in the field many times. Observed Instances of Speciation has a list of observed cases of speciation - new species becoming isolated from old species. Some other instances:
Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island - observed in the field
E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - in the lab

there's heaps more, if you want another post just dealing with observed instances of evolution

Technically any change in allele frequency from one generation to the next counts as evolution, since that's how it's defined.

The theory of evolution contradicts known scientific laws such as the law of biogenesis, the law of kinds and the second law of thermodynamics. The law of biogenesis is that life can only come from other life. Life does not spring from non-living things. This is what we observe and what the Bible teaches in Genesis 1, where various forms of life were created to reproduce. Perhaps the most difficult problem that evolutionists face is the question of how self-replicating life systems could form from non-living, non-replicating systems. Some evolutionists propose that in the beginning small inorganic molecules such as water, methane and ammonia, somehow by chance chemical reactions, formed amino acids. These amino acids supposedly combined to form proteins and eventually living cells. The idea that living creatures can be produced naturally from non-living substances is called spontaneous generation. Never has this been observed, repeated or verified, and thus this idea is not scientific.
Evolution deals with changes in living things over generations, it is not concerned with the origin of living things, or with the origin of the universe.

The scientific study of Abiogenesis deals with how living organisms originated from non-living material. Even if scientists never work out exactly how life originated, it's not a problem for evolution.

All evolution requires is for living things to have variation, and for some varities to reproduce more successfully than others.

The author confuses "spontaneous generation" with abiogenesis. Pasteur demonstrated that spontaneous generation is not possible. There is no 'law of biogenesis', btw. Spontaneous generation was the idea that fully formed organisms like mice sprang up out of a pile of hay. This would contradict evolution and abiogenesis if it could happen anyway.

The law of kinds is that life reproduces after its own kind. The phrase after his kind is used at least ten times in the creation account (Genesis 1:11, 12, 21, 24, 25). This applies to both the plant and the animal kingdoms. Specifically mentioned Specifically mentioned are grasses, herbs, trees, fishes, birds, beasts and creeping things. What this means is that pear trees produce pears and not bananas or monkeys. Cows have calves and horses beget colts. In other words, “like produces like.” The theory of evolution contradicts the “law of kinds ” by saying that one kind of creature evolved into another kind.[/url]
The Bible also:
- Never defines what a "kind" is, nor have any creationists. Is it a species? A genus? Family?
- Classifies bats as birds, which should tell you something about its credibility in scientific matters.
No creature in evolution would be expected to evolve into another modern creature. In fact you would expect every organism to look pretty much exactly like its parents from one generation to the next - giant leaps woudl contradict evolution. Small changes over huge quantities of time allow new lineages to appear.

Remember that in just a few thousand years, humans have produced this: http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/customergraphics/stbernard1.jpg and this: http://puppydogweb.com/gallery/pekingeses/pekingese_burgess.JPG from a common ancestor. Imagine what nature can do in 3 billion years.

The second law of thermodynamics shows that systems left to themselves go to a condition of greater disorder, probability and randomness. Hurricanes do not build buildings. Explosions in junkyards do not build airplanes. Earthquakes do not create living systems. Systems go from order to disorder. This contradicts evolutionary theory, which assumes that disordered particles eventually evolved to form ordered life. The second law of thermodynamics also contradicts the idea that a Big Bang Explosion could have produced an ordered universe. For an ordered pattern to occur, there must be a designer and energy. The orderliness of the universe and the complexity of living organisms confirm the work of a divine Creator. Our ordered universe could not have developed from chaos. There are no exceptions to the second law of thermodynamics. Evolutionists try to point out that snowflakes forming, trees growing and embryos developing are exceptions to the second law. Snowflakes and other crystals form because of the sizes and shapes of atoms, ions and molecules that predetermine the shapes of the crystals. For example, if you dropped some marbles on a Chinese checkerboard, the marbles would take the pattern of the indentations on the board. This “disorder to order” is really not that at all, but is rather that the marbles are falling into a pre-designed order. Likewise, the order of a growing tree or a developing embryo has been pre-encoded into the cells of these systems.
They managed to leave out half of the law, lol
things go from order to disorder... in a closed system.
The earth is not a closed system thermodynamically - see the big yellow thing in the sky?

From another forum said:
Rudolf Clausius erects this statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics:

In an isolated system, a process can occur only if it increases the total entropy of the system.

Now Clausius defined rigorously what was meant by three different classes of thermodynamic system, and in his work, specified explicitly that the operation of the laws of thermodynamics differed subtly in each instance. The three classes of system Clausius defined were as follows:

[27a] An isolated system is a system that engages in no exchanges of energy or matter with the surroundings;

[27b] A closed system is a system that engages in exchanges of energy with the surroundings, but does not engage in exchange of matter with the surroundings;

[27c] An open system is a system that engages in exchanges of both matter and energy with the surroundings.

Now, Clausius' statement above clearly and explicitly refers to isolated systems, which, thus far, have been found to be an idealised abstraction, as no truly isolated system has ever been found. Indeed, in order to create even an approximation to an isolated system in order to perform precise calorimetric measurements, physicists have to resort to considerable ingenuity in order to minimise energy exchanges with the surroundings, particularly given the pervasive nature of heat. Even then, they cannot make the system completely isolated, because they need to have some means of obtaining measurement data from that system, which has to be conveyed to the surroundings, and this process itself requires energy. Physicists can only construct a closed system, in which, courtesy of much ingenuity, energy exchanges with the surroundings are minimised and precisely controlled, and to achieve this result in a manner that satisfies the demands of precise work is time consuming, expensive and requires a lot of prior analysis of possible sources of energy exchange that need to be minimised and controlled.

However, the Earth is manifestly an open system. It is in receipt not only of large amounts of energy from outside (here's a hint: see that big yellow thing in the sky?) but is also in receipt of about 1,000 tons of matter per year in the form of particles of meteoritic origin from outer space. Some of these 'particles' are, on occasions, large enough to leave craters in the ground, such as that nice large one in Arizona. That particular dent in the Earth's surface is 1,200 metres in diameter, 170 metres deep, and has a ridge of material around the edges that rises 45 metres above the immediate landscape, and was excavated when a meteorite impacted the Earth's surface, generating a blast equivalent to a 20 megaton nuclear bomb. Hardly a characteristic of an isolated system.

Indeed, physicists have known for a long time, that if a particular system is a net recipient of energy from outside, then that energy can be harnessed within that system to perform useful work. Which is precisely what living organisms do. Indeed, they only harness a small fraction of the available incoming energy, yet this is sufficient to power the entire diversity of the biosphere, and the development of organisms of increasing sophistication over time. Scientists have published numerous papers (twelve of which are known to me, and this is an incomplete inventory of the extant literature) in which calculations have been performed demonstrating that the utilisation of energy by the biosphere, and by evolution, is orders of magnitude too small to violate thermodynamic concerns. Relevant papers in question being:

Entropy And Evolution by Daniel F. Styer, American Journal of Physics, 78(11): 1031-1033 (November 2008) DOI: 10.1119/1.2973046

Natural Selection As A Physical Principle by Alfred J. Lotka, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 8: 151-154 (1922) [full paper downloadable from here]

Evolution Of Biological Complexity by Christoph Adami, Charles Ofria and Travis C. Collier, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 97(9): 4463-4468 (25th April 2000) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Order From Disorder: The Thermodynamics Of Complexity In Biology by Eric D. Schneider and James J. Kay, in Michael P. Murphy, Luke A.J. O'Neill (ed), What is Life: The Next Fifty Years. Reflections on the Future of Biology, Cambridge University Press, pp. 161-172 [Full paper downloadable from here]

Natural Selection For Least Action by Ville R. I. Kaila and Arto Annila, Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Part A, 464: 3055-3070 (22nd july 2008) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Evolution And The Second Law Of Thermodynamics by Emory F. Bunn, arXiv.org, 0903.4603v1 (26th March 2009) [Download full paper from here]

All of these peer reviewed papers establish, courtesy of rigorous empirical and theoretical work, that evolution is perfectly consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I cover several of these in detail in this post, and it should be noted here that the notion that evolution was purportedly in "violation" of the Second Law of Thermodynamics was rejected in a paper written in 1922, which means that creationists who erect this canard are ignorant of scientific literature published over eighty years ago.
ok so that's dealt with

Both Creation and evolution are religious views. The issue is not religion vs. science, but religion vs. religion. Any concept regarding origins is not scientific, in that origins were not and cannot be observed, repeated or verified. Scientists can only deal with present evidence. The choice of which theory to accept becomes a matter of faith. To accept something without evidence requires faith. Hebrews 11:1-3 states, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen…By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.” The Christian believes that God created the universe, life and man, while the evolutionist believes that the universe, life and man somehow evolved without any supernatural direction. “Evolution cannot be proved or tested, it can only be believed.” Considering the majesty, beauty and complexity of the earth and universe, it is relatively easy to believe in Creation. But to believe that dead matter could create life, and have absolutely no evidence, requires faith of another order. Some believe that a cosmic egg of energy exploded to form chemical elements, stars , galaxies and finally people. Some even have the faith to believe that life was planted on earth by an unknown civilization from outer space. Since evolution cannot be observed, repeated or verified, it is no more “scientific” and no less “religious” than Creation. One person was asked, “Why aren’t you an evolutionist?” His reply was, “I don’t have enough faith to believe that random particles arranged themselves into ordered life.”
Scientists accept the theory of evolution because of the overwhelming evidence in favour of it.

Look what Name_Taken wrote about the bible in another thread:
The Bible isn't just one book, and it wasn't written by a single author, nor did the authors have contact with each other, largely becuae many of them lived in different places and generations apart.
Scientific research is done by many people over a long time, who are actively trying to disprove each others' work. It works on skepticism. Evolution has been supported over n over again by independent lines of evidence: genetics, biogeography, embryology, fossil evidence, etc.

No faith is required. You would have to propose there was a vast conspiracy between all scientists across the world.
 

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