Israel Affirmative Action in Gaza (2 Viewers)

[steero1]

They are shelling because of Israel's blockade of Gaza. They are fighting an opressor.

Exactly.

Israel is an oppressor. The palestinians have a correct sense of justice and hence will not accept this treatment even if it means death, the last 40+ years of history testifies to this fact. It is impossible for an oppressed people with this correct understanding of justice to live alongside an oppressor.

However solooo(who can't respond to an argument and instead resorts to attacking grammar and punctuation on internet forums) and others like him think that there is possibility for harmonious coexistence between the 2 nations.

 

[copyright_squid]

They are shelling because of Israel's blockade of Gaza. They are fighting an opressor.

Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar has said that the goal of the attacks is to force mass migration in Israel and disrupt the daily life of its citizens. Explaining why his group had moved from suicide bombing to rocket attacks, he said:

Which do you think is more effective, martyrdom operations or rockets against Sderot? Rockets against Sderot will cause mass migration, greatly disrupt daily lives and government administration and can make a much huger impact on the government. We are using the methods that convince the Israelis that their occupation is costing them too much. We are succeeding with the rockets. We have no losses and the impact on the Israeli side is so much.[146]

According to the BBC, Hamas views the attacks as legitimate because it regards the whole of historic Palestine (roughly coterminous with Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jordan) as Islamic land, and thus sees the state of Israel as an occupier.

[Hamas] regards the whole of historic Palestine as Islamic land and therefore views the state of Israel as an occupier, though it has offered a 10-year "truce" if Israel withdraws to the lines held before the war of 1967. It therefore generally justifies any actions against Israel, which has included suicide bombings and rocket attacks, as legitimate resistance. Specifically in Gaza, it argued that Israel's blockade justified a counter-attack by any means possible.[147]

Hamas has given other explanations concerning various attacks. Salah Bardawil, a Palestinian legislator who serves as spokesman for the Hamas faction in parliament, has said "We know we can't achieve military equality, but when a person suffers huge pain he has to respond somehow. This is how we defend ourselves. This is how we tell the world we are here."[148] Regarding specific strikes in 2007, Hamas political chief Khaled Mashaal called the attacks self-defense and retaliation against Israeli killings of Hamas supporters.[149] In January 2009 Mashaal called the rockets "our cry of protest to the world"[150] An attack in November 2008 was said by Hamas officials said to be in revenge for the recent deaths of its militants and increased Israeli closing of Gaza crossings.[151] A barrage in December 2008 was described by the group as retaliation for the deaths of three of its fighters in combat with Israeli troops.[152]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Hamas

 

[funkshen]

the best thing about the rocket attacks is that they're incredibly ineffective. they're still a grave issue, but hamas will always be on the losing side of the rocket attack-rocket defense dynamic

 

[kaz1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Hamas

That is probably their long term goal. In the immediate term they can't really do anything about the blockade other than fight back.

 

[Amundies]

Peaceful co-existence between Israel and Palestine is impossible for quite some time. Let's take India and Pakistan as a case in point. They've been 2 separate countries since 1947. However, even though it's been 65 years since they were one, they've been in conflict since the beginning. There have been 4 major wars, and dozens of smaller conflicts. On top of that, both countries fire on each other rather often (with one side doing it more, but that's not my point). The point I'm trying to make is that hostilities between Palestine and Israel will continue, and it will continue for a long time to come and there is no proper solution for it currently (the nuking of either country is NOT a proper solution).

 

[funkshen]

Peaceful co-existence between Israel and Palestine is impossible for quite some time. Let's take India and Pakistan as a case in point. They've been 2 separate countries since 1947. However, even though it's been 65 years since they were one, they've been in conflict since the beginning. There have been 4 major wars, and dozens of smaller conflicts. On top of that, both countries fire on each other rather often (with one side doing it more, but that's not my point). The point I'm trying to make is that hostilities between Palestine and Israel will continue, and it will continue for a long time to come and there is no proper solution for it currently (the nuking of either country is NOT a proper solution).

nuking both countries is a proper solution.

1) evacuate the jewish population and relocate them to a new and improved jewish state
2) evacuate the muslim population and relocate them to neighbouring arab states
3) completely nuclear obliteration of israel and palestine, making sure to destroy each and every holy site so that post-nuclear relations are not plagued by geographic disputes (e.g. the partition of jersualem)

 

[copyright_squid]

That is probably their long term goal. In the immediate term they can't really do anything about the blockade other than fight back.

then the rocket attacks probably wouldn't stop if the blockade was lifted.

 

[Cheesecake_a]

I am quite surprised at some of the responses. First off, I would like to say, that I support Palestine, and this in no way means I am a Hamas apologist, nor does it mean I am an Anti Semite. Right, that is off the table.

Secondly, the gross amount of Israeli propaganda is disappointing, considering some Western media has taken a great interest in supporting Israel and calling Gaza the perpetrator. Western media/ mainstream news stations, have been focused much on ''who started it.''

Now, I acknowledge that both Palestine and Israel have committed terrible acts against each other. However, there is far too much sympathy for Israel, that Gaza is greatly being ignored by some people, and many Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israeli strikes.

I also know Israel has been subject to deaths as well, and I condemn the violence made to innocents in Israel by Hamas etc.

Take a look at this timeline, it might give a clear idea at the issues surrounding this conflict.

http://http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/

On Monday my Atlantic colleague Jeffrey Goldberg began a post with this sentence: "Rockets are flying from Gaza into Israel at a fast clip, and Israelis, it is said, are divided on the question of how to respond."
That same day I came across this report from Ma'an, a Palestinian news agency:


GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Palestinian factions met on Monday in Gaza City to discuss Israeli attacks and threats of a wider operation in the enclave.

Hamas called the meeting to try and avoid further casualties after Israeli forces killed six Palestinians in Gaza since Saturday, said Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine leader Talal Abu Tharefa.

Abu Tharefa told Ma'an any truce with Israel must include an end to Israeli airstrikes and attacks, adding that the Palestinian resistance would retain the right to respond to Israeli aggression.

So in Israel the question was how to respond to aggression from Gaza, and in Gaza the question was how to respond to aggression from Israel. And each side considered its own use of force--what the other side called provocation--a response to provocation.
On Thursday, after Israel had killed a senior Hamas military commander and his son, and a rocket from Gaza had killed three Israelis, I aired this question on twitter: "Does anybody know of a truly symmetrical timeline of Israel-Gaza escalation--including missiles from Gaza and Israeli strikes?"

A number of people sent links, but none of the timelines seemed wholly objective; all seemed to have at least a wisp of Israeli or Palestinian perspective. Happily, Emily Hauser, an American-Israeli writer who lived in Tel Aviv for 14 years, offered to do her best to assemble a symmetrical timeline from available sources. You'll find it below, with fatalities in boldface.

Since Emily didn't want to devote the rest of her life to this project, she had to choose a starting date, and she chose Nov. 8. But her preamble acknowledges that picking any date is in a sense arbitrary.

So examine this timeline and draw your own conclusions. I'll save my conclusion for the bottom of this post.

A summary of events in the renewal of Israeli-Palestinian hostilities, Nov 8 - Nov 15
By Emily L. Hauser
Recent events in Israel and the Gaza Strip have been unusual only in scope. Violence and fear of violence is a near-daily reality for the residents of Gaza and Israel's southern communities. There's a constant back and forth, and on both sides, there's always something or someone to avenge.

For instance, some Palestinian sources date the start of this latest round of violence back to November 4, when Reuters reported the death of "an unarmed, mentally unfit man" who strayed too near the border fence, did not respond to reported Israeli warnings, and was then shot. Palestinian medics report that Israeli security personnel prevented them from attending to the man for a couple of hours, and say that he likely died as a result.

But it's genuinely impossible to date today's hostilities conclusively to one incident or another; even the "two-week lull" that some outlets have said preceded Nov. 8 (when the timeline below begins) was, according to Reuters "a period of increased tensions at the Israel-Gaza frontier, with militants often firing rockets at Israel and Israel launching aerial raids targeting Palestinian gunmen."

According to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as of November 13, Palestinian militants had fired 797 rockets into Israel in the course of 2012 , and according to the Israeli human rights organization Btselem, between January 2009 (the conclusion of the last all-out Gaza war) and September of this year, 25 Israelis were killed by Palestinians, and 314 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces, with six more being killed by Israeli civilians.

Thursday, November 8

In an exchange of fire on the border of Gaza with militants from the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), Israeli forces killed a 12 year old (or 13 year old ) Palestinian boy. "The PRC said it had confronted an Israeli force of four tanks and a bulldozer involved in a short-range incursion beyond Israel's border fence with the Gaza Strip." Later, Palestinian fighters blew up a tunnel along the Gaza-Israel border, injuring one Israeli soldier. Reuters

Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs reported the incident as follows: "An IDF [Israeli military] engineering force located a number of powerful explosive devices to the west of the fence. After the IDF disarmed charges found on the Gaza side of the border, and were repairing the border fence, explosives in an underground tunnel were detonated, causing a large explosion...damaging a jeep and lightly injuring a soldier."Israeli MFA



Saturday, November 10

An IDF force patrolling near the border, inside Israel, was hit by an anti-tank missile fired from inside the Gaza Strip. Two soldiers were seriously injured. MFA

In retaliation, Israeli tanks fired into Gaza, killing four Palestinians; Palestinian fighters retaliated in turn with rockets into Israel; an Israeli air strike targeted a rocket crew, & killed a militant. "Popular Resistance Committees, said it had fired rockets at communities close to the border and the towns of Sderot and Netivot in southern Israel, in what it called 'the revenge invoice' for the deaths in Gaza." The IDF reports that "over the past few hours, 25 rockets fired from the Gaza Strip hit southern Israel." Reuters

In addition to the four Palestinians killed immediately by Israeli fire, 38 were injured, one of them dying on November 13. As a result of additional Israeli artillery fire that day, 11 Palestinians, including a 10 year old child, were also injured. An Israeli drone fired a missile at members of the armed wing of Islamic Jihad in north Gaza, killing one militant. Palestinian Center for Human Rights

Sunday, November 11

Israeli government reports four civilians injured in rocket fire from Gaza; Israeli attacks result in one Palestinian civilian killed and dozens injured. Institute for Middle East Understanding

Sixty-four rockets and several mortars were fired into Israel; two Israeli homes hit directly. "A number of Israeli civilians were wounded by the rocket fire, although not seriously; several were treated for shock and there was extensive property damage." MFA

Ynet reported that over 100 Qassam rockets, mortar shells and Grads fired from Gaza into Israel in the course of 24 hours; the Israeli air force "struck several terror hubs in the Strip." Ynet

A Palestinian civilian was injured by Israeli artillery fire, and a militant killed in drone strike. PCHR

Monday November 12


Israeli warplanes opened fire on three different Gaza targets between the hours of 2:20 and 3:20 am; no casualties reported. PCHR

In the morning, damage was done to a private home inside Israel when a rocket hit its yard. A ceramics factory was later hit, and that evening, two rockets were intercepted by Israel's "Iron Dome" defense system. MFA

At 9:07 PM, HaAretz reported that "The representatives of Palestinian militant groups in the Gaza Strip announced an agreement to hold their fire on Monday, following days of persistent rocket attacks.... However a matter of minutes later, two rockets [exploded] in open fields near [the southern town of] Sderot. No casualties or damage reported." HaAretz

Tuesday November 13

Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh praised Gaza's main militant groups in Gaza for agreeing to the truce: "They showed a high sense of responsibility by saying they would respect calm should the Israeli occupation also abide by it," he said." Reuters

A rocket exploded in an open area in Ashdod. MFA

Wednesday November 14

Reports emerged that Israel has targeted Ahmed Jabari, head of Hamas's military wing; Israel confirmed the assassination, citing his "decade-long terrorist activity," and said that killing was the part of an operation in which the military struck 20 different targets across Gaza. HaAretz [Note: Later reports indicate that Jabari was considering a permanent truce agreement at the time of his assassination]

Over the course of the day, Israeli strikes killed 8 Palestinians, leaving 90 injured. The dead include a 65 year old man, a pregnant 19 year old, a 7 year old girl, and an 11 month old boy. Ma'an News Agency

At 10:17 PM, HaAretz summarized the day's rocket attacks: 60 rockets fired, of which the Iron Dome defense system intercepted 17; later entries for that night show another 12 rockets, some of them intercepted. HaAretz

One rocket hit an Israeli shopping center, damaging stores and a vehicle. MFA

Thursday November 15

At 6:45 AM, HaAretz summarized the early morning in Israel: "Throughout the night some 25 rockets fired from Gaza toward Israel; since the beginning of Operation Pillar of Defense 104 rockets have been fired toward Israel; 28 people suffer anxiety; two lightly wounded."

At 6:50 AM HaAretz reported: "Three Hamas operatives killed in two separate Israel Air Forces airstrikes.... Israel Defense Forces strikes in the Gaza Strip throughout the night leave 15 wounded."

At 7:32 AM, HaAretz reported that "According to a military source, overnight strikes in Gaza damage a substantial portion of Hamas' long-range missile infrastructure."

HaAretz reported that three Israelis were killed in Kiryat Malachi, about 20 miles north of Gaza, after more than a dozen more rockets were fired over the course of the morning and one hit the apartment building in which the Israelis had lived. HaAretz

Three Israeli civilians killed [as reported by HaAretz above]; two others seriously injured, one boy moderately injured, and two babies lightly injured. Elsewhere, rockets also struck a residence and a school. MFA

At 7:23 PM, HaAretz reported that the Israeli military reports striking 250 sites in Gaza since the start of the current operation, during which time 274 rockets had been fired at Israel, 105 of them intercepted .

At 9:50 PM, Israel reported having hit an additional 70 targets in Gaza.

At 11:00 PM, HaAretz reported that "according to Hamas figures, 16 Palestinians have been killed and 151 wounded in Gaza since the start of Operation Pillar of Defense (on Nov. 14). Hamas says it has fired 527 rockets at Israel, while Islamic Jihad has fired 138." HaAretz

At midnight, Ma'an reported that "on Thursday, Israel killed 11 Palestinians in Gaza [presumably including the 3 Hamas operatives noted above], including two toddlers, and militants returned fire killing three Israelis [as reported above by HaAretz et. al.] in a rocket attack on southern Israel. Islamic Jihad fired a Fajr missile at Tel Aviv [Israel's cultural center, and the farthest any rocket had ever been fired] and Hamas said it downed an Israeli reconnaissance drone over eastern Gaza." Ma'an

Note: I depended on a variety of sources to prepare this timeline because none, other than Reuters, can be considered strictly "objective" in the conflict - each comes from within the societies that have been at war with each other for decades, and as Americans learned during the Gulf War, that can lead venerable NGOs or news organizations to err on the side of national loyalty, even if unintentionally (and of course, Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a direct party to the conflict).

Emily L. Hauser is an American-Israeli writer. She lived in Tel Aviv for 14 years and has studied and written about the contemporary Middle East for 25; she writes for Open Zion on The Daily Beast, and also at her own blog. She can be followed on Twitter at @emilylhauser.

OK, my own takeaway from this timetable (drum roll) is that it's very hard to say which side started the conflict.

 

[Cheesecake_a]

Western media can't get Palestine right
Western media still hasn't been able to correct their inherently pro-Israel narrative.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/11/20121117122934791791.html?utm_content=automate&utm_campaign=Trial6&utm_source=NewSocialFlow&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount

Since Israel's brutal 21-day assault on Gaza in the winter of '08-'09 (dubbed by Israeli politicians as Operation Cast Lead) that led to over 1,400 Palestinian deaths - of which 930 were civilians including many women and children - followed by its deadly raid on a civilian Turkish ship headed to Gaza in June 2010 that resulted in nine casualties and dozens injured, many Palestinians as well as their advocates in the West have spoken of a significant "sea change" in the western media's once hegemonic support for Israel. However, since this latest military operation began - already claiming more than 30 lives and injuring hundreds - evidence of any changing tide has been scant.

The New York Times and the BBC have always been reliable mouthpieces for Israel's line of justification for bombarding Palestinians, and they have not failed the Zionist state in this instance. However, their so-called liberal counterparts have scarcely hit a different tone.

Consider two of the loudest cheerleaders for the DNC and Barak Obama's reelection: MSNBC and Mother Jones magazine. On November 16, former spokesperson for the US State Department, James Rubin, appeared on MSNBC host Alex Wagner's programme. During the chummy discussion, Rubin described Netanyahu as a "sharp character" and placed a "huge chunk" of the blame on Palestinians for why there are currently no "peace negotiations" between Israel and Palestine, while carefully displaying his judicious side by ascribing "some part" of the blame to the Israeli Prime Minister.

Wagner and Rubin wholeheartedly agreed that Romney would be approaching this very differently, although how exactly was not discussed. In light of the fact that the Democratic-led Senate just voted unanimously to support Israel's "right to defend itself" and President Obama has repeatedly pledged his unequivocal support for Netanyahu and the current course the Israeli Prime Minister is taking, we are simply left to ponder how it could be much worse for Palestinians.



On November 15, Mother Jones published their one and only piece on the recent attacks, which focused entirely on the Israeli army's novel use of social media to tweet their truce-breaking assassination of Hamas leader, Ahmed Jabari.

National Public Radio's All Things Considered explained that "the strikes were in retaliation for the launching of more than 100 rockets at Israel in recent days", as noted by Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting.

To her credit, Amy Goodman had the outstanding Palestinian journalist from Gaza, Mohammed Omer, on her show, Democracy Now!, but failed to ask him pertinent questions about the background of the situation or provide it herself.

Some mainstream liberal media outlets have discussed the imbalance between the rocket launches from Gaza resistance groups and the attacks executed by one of the mightiest armies in the world. While some may take this as a sign of newfound "support" or "empathy" for Palestinians, this is precarious logic. If Hamas' rockets were to become more powerful, as they are proving to be, will these outlets retract their critique of Israel's actions? Or is support for Palestinians contingent on them remaining "victims" and will vanish at any sign of their resistance becoming more powerful or effective?

A focus on "who started it?" consumes the mainstream media's discussion on the latest violence, leading commentators to discuss timelines as though they were opinions rather than verifiable facts to consider and, to a one, even getting that wrong, with media outlets from NPR to the NYT declaring that Israel's - rather than Hamas' - strikes were retaliatory.

Meanwhile pundits feverishly try to tease out a political motive to explain Israel's latest massive assault on Gaza. So far, the realpolitick most commonly alluded to is the impending Israeli election, scheduled for January 22, giving Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defence Minister Ehud Barak strategic reasons for timing an assault on Gaza now.

The other pervasive rationale has been that Israel is "testing" the Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt as well as, to a degree, President Obama in his second and last term in office.

While it is understandably appealing for pundits and spectators to search for a reason for yet another indefensible assault on Palestinians in Gaza, this focus separates Israel's military actions in the Gaza Strip from its ongoing policies to implement the "Iron Wall", a term coined by the far-right Zionist leader, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, and referring to a strategy used throughout all Israeli regimes since 1948. As John Mearsheimer explains in his latest piece for the London Review of Books' blog, the Iron Wall is "an approach that in essence calls for beating the Palestinians into submission".

When it comes to looking behind the scenes of Israeli military assaults on Gaza (or Lebanon), there is always a general hoping for a promotion, a politician looking for votes, and an arms dealer making profits, but the rationale that enables that triumvirate to enact the lethal policies we are seeing play out in Gaza right now is the same one that allows the Israeli government to calculate how many calories each Palestinian in the Gaza Strip needs to survive, and to then intentionally allow fewer trucks and supplies in to meet that need.

And it's the same rationale that motivates the Israeli occupation authorities to prevent construction in Area C of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, to encourage widespread drug addiction in Area B, and to make near-daily incursions into Area A to arrest political leaders, activists and journalists.

It's the rationale of a coloniser, who wants land but not the people on it.

When the media starts speaking about this, then we'll know there's been a sea change.

 

[Cheesecake_a]

nuking both countries is a proper solution.

1) evacuate the jewish population and relocate them to a new and improved jewish state
2) evacuate the muslim population and relocate them to neighbouring arab states
3) completely nuclear obliteration of israel and palestine, making sure to destroy each and every holy site so that post-nuclear relations are not plagued by geographic disputes (e.g. the partition of jersualem)

Holy sites may mean nothing to you, but means a hell of a lot to Jews/Muslims.

 

[copyright_squid]

Holy sites may mean nothing to you, but means a hell of a lot to Jews/Muslims.

Gaza rocket fired at Jerusalem

 

[kaz1]

Gaza rocket fired at Jerusalem

Hamas obviously represents all Jews/Muslims.

 

[Lolsmith]

nuking both countries is a proper solution.

1) evacuate the jewish population and relocate them to a new and improved jewish state
2) evacuate the muslim population and relocate them to neighbouring arab states
3) completely nuclear obliteration of israel and palestine, making sure to destroy each and every holy site so that post-nuclear relations are not plagued by geographic disputes (e.g. the partition of jersualem)

if only :')

 

[rubiks95]

nuking both countries is a proper solution.

1) evacuate the jewish population and relocate them to a new and improved jewish state
2) evacuate the muslim population and relocate them to neighbouring arab states
3) completely nuclear obliteration of israel and palestine, making sure to destroy each and every holy site so that post-nuclear relations are not plagued by geographic disputes (e.g. the partition of jersualem)

1) Okay so lets evacuate the Jewish population to a new and improved Jewish state. Hmmm. I suggest Australia. Alright come on Australians move over and make way for the Jewish, theres only a few million, don't stress. Yep. Seems like the perfect solution Funkshen. Lets destroy another country!!

 

[rubiks95]

Haha I just love it how you guys seem to ignore Cheesecakes post. It must be because it speaks the truth.
The Truth hurts doesn't it?

 

[Riproot]

1) Okay so lets evacuate the Jewish population to a new and improved Jewish state. Hmmm. I suggest Australia. Alright come on Australians move over and make way for the Jewish, theres only a few million, don't stress. Yep. Seems like the perfect solution Funkshen. Lets destroy another country!!

It would be a lot better than all the Arab people on the boats coming over, at least they would be intelligent and have skills to help the country and our economy grow instead of just being a burden.

Yep, I just said that. It's pretty accurate.

 

[Riproot]

Haha I just love it how you guys seem to ignore Cheesecakes post. It must be because it speaks the truth.
The Truth hurts doesn't it?

SHE is writing in purple, so no one is going to take HER seriously, and now that I have made it clear SHE is a FEMALE you probably won't pay attention to her either because your religion is actually so terrible in the way it portrays and treats WOMEN.

 

[rubiks95]

It would be a lot better than all the Arab people on the boats coming over, at least they would be intelligent and have skills to help the country and our economy grow instead of just being a burden.

Yep, I just said that. It's pretty accurate.

Ooooo step back tough guy. Alright then, invite them over seeing as you care so much for them and think they'll be such a great contribution to society.

 

[rubiks95]

SHE is writing in purple, so no one is going to take HER seriously, and now that I have made it clear SHE is a FEMALE you probably won't pay attention to her either because your religion is actually so terrible in the way it portrays and treats WOMEN.

Are you stupid?
I already know shes a girl you idiot, the "it" referred to the articles etc. posted. And lol do you know how to read? I'm a female too as the side profile indicates. So that kind of contradicts your stupid baseless argument. Which of course, only those who know they are losing an argument resort to.

And love the fact that you assume I'm Muslim because I support Palestine.
Did you know many Jewish people are also condemning Israel's attacks? Probably not, because your just another ignorant idiot.

 

[Absolutezero]

Keep it civil everyone.