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What did you think of the protest that happened in MacLaurin Hall? (1 Viewer)

Hatake88

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Long story short, Bishop visited Usyd last Friday. This was somehow leaked to the students who then confronted her as she was making her way to the podium/making her speeches.

This in particular caught my attention due to its intensity (its only a minute long so its not that bad). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiTnFbleaDU

What does everyone think? Both sides (radicals and the coalition) are blaming each other for assault because of this...who is right here? Was the security too forceful or were the students? Would this impact your choice on the upcoming election?
 

flashyGoldFish

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While I agree with their point its an unacceptable action. That group of people, the Socialist Alliance, are really nothing but trouble
 

someth1ng

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I never support the Socialist groups, they're fucking annoying. With that said, it's fine for them to demonstrate but they always take it too far and be a nuisance.
 

Crobat

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The same kind of stuff happened at other unis across Australia

The UTS one was a lot less intense :haha: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyUniversityEducationActionGroup/posts/696780870385170

Security had a job to maintain and the students were quite literally throwing themselves against them so it was quite reasonable what they were doing. Their point is legitimate but their actions are quite radical. One of the Q&A protesters (and probably protester at that USYD protest too) had a good interview saying that even they knew that their actions were radical but they were a result of no one caring, listening, and not achieving anything if they did it any other way:

 

Amleops

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They weren't all socialists, they had the backing of the Student Representative Council which consist of Greens and Labor affiliated people as well. Tom Raue (SRC Vice-President and Greens member) was definitely there for instance (saw him on Twitter boasting about it afterwards), and many of the current left wing board candidates have condoned these actions as well. Obnoxious student politicians all the same.

Honestly, their whole reaction to these funding cuts have gotten way to out of hand. Like has been said, they have the right to protest, irrespective of how futile their efforts are in reality, but they definitely crossed a line here. Even if they have succeeded in their motive of drawing public attention towards the issue, they have painted a picture of themselves as irrational, petty-minded and arrogant individuals who refuse to engage in meaningful debate. Whether or not this is the case remains to be seen, but I certainly think that their actions will come back to haunt them in the future.

On another note, it's been interesting watching the Liberal Club has been reacting to this. Being a member myself and having contact with quite a few of them, I can't say they've handled their criticism of the situation very well either haha.
 

Rythen

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I personally do not agree with the deregulation of university fees - that does provide SOME justification to their reaction, however their actions could of course be more civilized. But the budget overall is ridiculous and I can understand why they were protesting. On a positive note, this has brought some media attention and I guess that has helped the case: from a glance of article comments it seems that this budget has been judged by the Australian public as too harsh.

But if there wasn't for a (inappropriate?) protest - what action would be done? Sometimes a protest/march is needed to wake the government up, so to speak. I guess petitions might help - but I see petitions everywhere and I wonder if any of them actually makes an impact.

EDIT: On another note, why did Julie Bishop come to Usyd?! Did she think that deregulated universities would make students happy? :blink2:

EDIT2: I am not a socialist nor do I like to categorise myself.
 
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someth1ng

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I was quite annoyed by the Q&A protest. I watch it to see what members of the panel think, not to watch people protest.

If they fees were increased to some ridiculous amount like 30k+/year, I'm totally applying to the universities in the US where some might actually be worth paying for with that kind of money. But honestly, I really doubt it will increase to that level because students would just drop out.
 

Rythen

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FULL Deregulated = ANY price. American system incoming.

I mean look at the protests in ALL the states today - I don't think it's just USYD peeps. Everyone is unsatisfied - except really rich people, obviously.
 
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Amleops

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I was quite annoyed by the Q&A protest. I watch it to see what members of the panel think, not to watch people protest.

If they fees were increased to some ridiculous amount like 30k+/year, I'm totally applying to the universities in the US where some might actually be worth paying for with that kind of money. But honestly, I really doubt it will increase to that level because students would just drop out.
Yeah, it won't get that high. The biggest number I've seen mentioned for the cost of a degree as a whole is $120000 (including interest), and even that would be quite manageable for anyone to pay back over a number of years once you get a decent job under your belt.

FULL Deregulated = ANY price. American system incoming.

I mean look at the protests in ALL the states today - I don't think it's just USYD peeps. Everyone is unsatisfied - except really rich people, obviously.
I don't see much problem with adopting some American strategies. I mean it's not like they're getting rid of HECS or anything.

The whole purpose of these education reforms and fee deregulation is to improve our universities; we have the potential to have some of the best universities in the world, and by handing power back to the universities themselves, the added competition element will allow universities to improve their teaching and research for the betterment of all students. In that respect, they would be quite right to charge us more money for a superior education, and I'm sure many students would be happy to do that.
 

someth1ng

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FULL Deregulated = ANY price. American system incoming.

I mean look at the protests in ALL the states today - I don't think it's just USYD peeps. Everyone is unsatisfied - except really rich people, obviously.
This is NOT like the American system and should not be compared as such. The American system has huge amounts of financial support, particularly at the more expensive private universities (Ivy League, MIT, Stanford, Caltech etc) - you would find many very poor students attending Ivy League schools. The fact is that if we adopt the American system (like, actually), it might even be better off for poorer students - at most of those universities don't even need to pay tuition fees if you actually can't afford it.
 
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Rythen

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Why would poor students pay no fees? Most of the current scholarships/assistance do not cover the current fees. Increasing the fees doesn't help either...

Also what's with the research cuts across fields and some random school chaplain system?
 

Amleops

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Not sure if we will end up adopting that aspect of the American system, but currently, poor people are still able to defer their payments. The fact that they are going to university means that they will have access to jobs after they graduate which will provide them with more than enough money to live comfortably above the poverty line, and thus in a reasonable position to pay back their debt.

In terms of the research cuts, it's important not to see them as cuts, but rather a reallocation of who spends on what. The Government wants to give more power to the universities and the private sector, and quite rightly so. Research will still be funded, just not from the public sector.

And the chaplain system had already been established, it's just that the Government didn't decide to cut it. Which is fair enough; I'm a bit dubious with the involvement of politics in issues of religion, but I appreciate that many religious people do appreciate the role of chaplains within their school.
 

Rythen

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Why not then just increase taxes of those already IN a well paying job? I don't think there is a need to deregulate fees of students just because they have potential to earn much more in the future (and of course not all will).

Why does research nees to be governed by the private sector? I don't see any advantages - other than that future research will be forcibly directed towards produce development and self interests.

Oh I must have misunderstood - I am surprised that the chaplain sytem already exists! I might be wrong, but I thought they were putting $245m to its development?
 

Amleops

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Why not then just increase taxes of those already IN a well paying job? I don't think there is a need to deregulate fees of students just because they have potential to earn much more in the future (and of course not all will).
Two problems with that, one, increases in tax bring no benefit to anyone except the Government itself (who in many circumstances do not desperately need it), and two, not all people in well paying jobs have gone to university, so it would be unfair for them to cover the costs for institutions they have never even used. At least with the deregulation of uni fees, we are charging the people who should be charged, and there remains some lasting benefit to the student for the increased quality of education they have received as a result of this deregulation, even if it is not an immediate financial benefit.

Yes, it would be incorrect to assume that all university students will end up in well paid jobs, and obviously those people would pay back their debt at a lesser rate. But the reason behind deregulation is not to punish students for their high earning potential, it's to increase the quality of university teaching and research facilities. As students will benefit from a greater education, I think the universities would be entitled to ask for more money, and students should be willing to pay that.

Why does research nees to be governed by the private sector? I don't see any advantages - other than that future research will be forcibly directed towards produce development and self interests.
What it basically comes down to, and this applies to the sale of any commodity, is that business entities in the private sector are able to better engage with their products, have a clearer picture on the features and issues involving that product, and would, as a result of competition between businesses, be more inclined to improve the excellence and quality of their product. If the private sector can perform a job just as capably or better than the public sector, it is best for the public sector to not be involved. The withdrawal of the public sector would generate more business, and hence more economic activity, as businesses in the private sector would compete with each other to sell their product. And as I've said, with the introduction of more products, business will seek to improve their own products to give them a competitive edge, which will work to the benefit of consumers.

A university, for example, and its administrators who are directly involved with the day to day happenings of a university, would have more knowledge about the university, and would be more likely to act in the university's best interest, in comparison to an external Government authority. They would be able to direct the funds they receive to areas which they know will reap the most benefits. The success and increased quality of education and research that this university offers would then encourage other universities to adopt similar strategies as well, in order for them to survive in the market. Some may choose to specialise in certain areas, others may choose to be more broad, but in the end, we have a thriving and diverse tertiary industry which offer to the Australian public a greater quality of education, and a greater capacity for the pursuit of knowledge through research.

That's the theory of course. Many might disagree with me, but I think it is based on some good logic, and I would welcome debate on this issue.

Oh I must have misunderstood - I am surprised that the chaplain sytem already exists! I might be wrong, but I thought they were putting $245m to its development?
No you were right, the program already exists, but they're investing a further $245 million into it. Maybe the money would be better spent somewhere else in the education system, but I don't think it's too important an issue to warrant as much criticism as it is receiving.
 

enigma_1

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Seriously, I wanna know why people voted for Tony Abbott. Doesn't everyone know what the Liberal Party is about ??? Taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich. Whereas Labor Party is about taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. In terms of reducing the income inequality and using pure commonsense, wouldn't it better AND logical to vote for Labor? The only thing people are happy about in Liberal is that they want to stop the boats, but are they actually doing this?? And it doesn't really make a difference if the boats come or not. Who the f cares? We need to care about our economy and the allocation of resources. Obviously Liberal has got its priorities wrong. Be prepared to witness a surge in crime rates, thanks to Liberal's cuts, cuts, cuts..
 

Amleops

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There's a lot of generalised accusations in what you have just said.

Perhaps if you would care to provide us with some examples I would be happy to discuss them.
 

someth1ng

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The fact is that that aspect of the American system will not be pulled over. Therefore, what they want is completely different to the American system.

That was the point I was trying to make.
 

enigma_1

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The cut to company tax to help the rich. Then the GP co-payment to make the poor worse off.
The family benefit thing, screws up lower class. Earn or learn for unemployed teenagers just ridiculous. Increased retirement age. No payment for 6 months unemployed. I can go on and on.
 

enigma_1

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Indirectly --> contractionary effect on the economy which we don't need right after PMV manufacturing industries are leaving our nation and unemployment rates are going to surge.
 

someth1ng

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In terms of the research cuts, it's important not to see them as cuts, but rather a reallocation of who spends on what. The Government wants to give more power to the universities and the private sector, and quite rightly so. Research will still be funded, just not from the public sector.
Seeing it as a reallocation of money is probably just as bad as seeing them as cuts. If it's reallocation of money as you say, then the way they reallocated money is severely warped against the Australia's best interests, that is, education, health and arguably research. Personally, I think reducing funding to education and health is never the right choice, unless it is severely over-funded which it was far from.

As for the chaplain system, given that Australia is and should be a secular state, I personally think it is unacceptable to fund religious (and perhaps, vested) interests. As for the religious people, I would certainly argue that they are a minority - if you don't go to church/temple/mosque (etcetera), per week, you really shouldn't be calling yourself religious. I know many people that label themselves as "Christian" but they themselves say that they "don't worship or pray to a god", don't go to church and even say "it's just how [they] were raised up".
 

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