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Restore the right to offend (2 Viewers)

Should section 18c of the racial discrimination act be changed?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 69.2%
  • No

    Votes: 4 30.8%

  • Total voters
    13

nerdasdasd

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LINK: http://brendanoneill.co.uk/post/107600481429/restore-the-right-to-offend

The global cry of “Je suis Charlie” in response to the bloody massacre of satirists and cartoonists in Paris has been heartening.

From Paris’s Place de la Republique to London’s Trafalgar Square to the streets of San Francisco, thousands of people have gathered in silence, holding up pens, in memory of the 12 people killed in the brutal assault on the satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo.

The pens symbolise the freedom to write, to draw, to express in print what lurks in one’s mind. An attendee at the gathering in London spoke for many when he stated simply: “I’m here to support freedom of speech.”

Yet while these quietly angry gatherings have spoken to a deep well of human solidarity, they also feel a little too late.

For the ideal of freedom of speech has been under assault for years in the West, battered by law and by mobs and by super-sensitive cliques of offence-takers, everywhere from France itself to Britain, Scandinavia, America and Australia.

And it has been in part this silent war on free speech, and particularly the institutionalisation of the crazy idea that it is bad to offend people’s sensibilities, that has encouraged Islamists to think they have the right to stamp out Muhammad-reviling material.

Yes, the barbarians who slaughtered the staff of the Islam-disrespecting Charlie Hebdo will have been fuelled by their reading of the Koran or by the vile outpourings of some finger-wagging extremist imam. But they may also have imbibed an idea now mainstream in the West: that feeling offended is the worst thing in the world and you have the right to demand that your offenders STFU.

Tragically, many in the West, including those who call themselves liberal, had forgotten the importance of free speech, and the benefits of blasphemy itself, long before this week’s horrific assault.

Across Europe over the past 30 years offensiveness has been turned into a crime. In every European country, hate-speech laws have been introduced to control and punish the expression of certain beliefs.

A pastor in Sweden was given a one-month suspended prison sentence for describing homosexuality as a cancer. A drunk student in Britain was imprisoned for 56 days for offending black people on Twitter. Over the Christmas break, police in the north of England visited the home of a man who made a joke about a horrific road accident and gave him “strong words of advice”.

In France itself, the former actress Brigitte Bardot has been arrested five times for ridiculing the way Muslims prepare their meat. The novelist Michel Houellebecq was arrested and put on trial for describing Islam as “the stupidest religion”. That those cartoonist-killing gunmen felt they had the right to punish those who criticise their religion isn’t surprising: mainstream French society itself now punishes those who offend Islam or any other minority or “vulnerable group”. It’s just that where politicians think offensiveness is only an imprisonable offence, the Charlie Hebdo killers think it deserves capital punishment.

It’s not only the law that is used to reprimand offensiveness. A growing culture of “You Can’t Say That”, an informal but nonetheless choking climate of self-censorship in response to cries of “That’s offensive!”, has many Western nations in its grip.

Across Europe, PC mobs — though they never think of themselves as mobs, preferring the flattering tag “campaigners for social justice” — have in recent months successfully squashed art exhibitions, TV shows, university debates and newspaper articles on the basis that they were offensive to blacks, women, transgender people or Muslims.

No, using online petitions — the rotten tomato of the 21st century — to silence someone you hate is not the same as using a Kalashnikov to murder those who offend you. But the aim of both is strikingly similar: to punish the offensive, to cleanse society of blasphemy, whether against a religion or idea or community group.

So the barbarism in Paris has not taken place in a vacuum. It occurred on a continent where anti-offensiveness is written into law and stamped into many campaigners’ hearts, and where liberals all too often side with the offence-takers over the offence-givers, the speakers or writers who have uttered the unutterable.

From the Danish cartoons controversy to recent censorious assaults on laddish magazines, too many Western liberals have responded to threats to free speech by saying: “Hmm, yes, maybe you shouldn’t have said or written that offensive thing in the first place. Tone it down, watch your words, don’t be so scurrilous.”

But we must defend the right to be scurrilous. And shocking. And blasphemous. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean a thing if we only defend it for polite, right-on people who parrot agreeable orthodoxies — we must also defend it for those who shock and rile and outrage.

Why? First, because everyone must have free speech, otherwise it’s not free speech at all, it’s privileged speech. And secondly because offensiveness is a good thing. Blasphemy has benefits. The instinct to shock and upset society is often a positive one. In fact, it can be the motor of progress.

As George Bernard Shaw said, “All great truths begin as blasphemies”. Some of mankind’s greatest intellectual leaps forward are a result of people having the cojones to say things that would have sounded Earth-shatteringly offensive in their day.

Whether it was Copernicus outraging mainstream thought by insisting the Earth orbited the Sun or Thomas Paine earning himself a death sentence for saying people should get to choose their political rulers, intellectual daring, a willingness to offend deeply entrenched ways of thinking, helped to deliver mankind from the Dark Ages into the relatively Enlightened societies many of us now inhabit.

The things we are warned off blaspheming against change over time. In the West in the past, it was the Christian God that was protected by a censorious forcefield. Now it’s climate-change orthodoxy, the ideology of multiculturalism, Islamo-sensitivities, gay marriage… These days, speaking ill of any of those new gods could earn you a metaphorical lashing from the mob, or expulsion from polite society, or possibly a prison sentence.

The straitjacketing of risky thinking and provocative speech is always and everywhere a bad thing, for it discourages true, open debate and makes society intellectually lethargic.

We need more provocation, more eccentricity of thought, more blasphemy. As John Stuart Mill said: “The amount of eccentricity in a society has generally been proportional to the amount of genius, mental vigour, and moral courage it contained.” So, if you want to pay tribute to the brave souls at Charlie Hebdo, don’t just hold up a pen in public and then go back to accepting the idea that offensiveness should be strangled — be a bit Charlie Hebdo in your everyday life and blaspheme against gods, prophets, orthodoxies and stupidities in the name of freedom and progress.

....

MY two cents:

A fundamental foundation of freedom is the freedom of speech. This includes the right to "offend" someone. This is the price of freedom, not a judgement call on what's right or wrong.

The right to "offend" someone (in this case religion), can lead society to progress as it will provoke thought about religion and cultures.
 

wannaspoon

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With the right to offend, you must also accept the right to be offended... I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact, I completely agree... People should not have to pussy foot around for fear of offending...

At the same time, full and fundamental freedom of speech also allows for the right to be offended...
 

financialwar

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Western democracy and "freedom of speech" is a joke.

I have more "freedom of speech" in Communist China than in "free" Australia.

You Aussies are just living in a Western lie and shackled by political correctness.
 

Gary_Oak

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Elaborate.
I think what he means:
If he yells out "muslims are stupid idiots" in Australia, your most likely going to get scolded by someone (even if there no muslims around). I remember yelling out "If this was China, its would have been a repeat of the Tienanmen Square" to a bunch of student protesters when tony tried to rise school fees, and i got scolded by this lady next to me (who isn't a protester), i just muttered bitch, and left
Likewise for China, im sure they wouldn't give a rat ass (since they hate muslims in general)

But however in China, don't insult the government and their people, and you on a good path..... unlike here, where you wouldn't get killed for insulting the government or whatever, but however people will get offended at the most minor things
 
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financialwar

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In China, as long as you don't insult the Party or China itself, due to nationalist fanatics, you have the right to express your opinion without repercussions. You simply can't do that in the West, you can not say you hate gay or black are stupid, or gender role etc, because you might offend someone or worse a group of fanatics.

And in China, what you can't say is codified, so you know exactly what to say and what not to say. In the West, it's a fucking bullshit social rules, oh black men can say nigger but white can't, comedian can be racist but other can't.

So fuck you the West, fuck your multiculturalism and fuck your political correctness and your freedom is superficial. Democracy my balls. And fuck the liberal and femine Nazi
 

SylviaB

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Well boy I say I think you're making some sense mhm I do say now
 

Gary_Oak

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In China, as long as you don't insult the Party or China itself, due to nationalist fanatics, you have the right to express your opinion without repercussions. You simply can't do that in the West, you can not say you hate gay or black are stupid, or gender role etc, because you might offend someone or worse a group of fanatics.

And in China, what you can't say is codified, so you know exactly what to say and what not to say. In the West, it's a fucking bullshit social rules, oh black men can say nigger but white can't, comedian can be racist but other can't.

So fuck you the West, fuck your multiculturalism and fuck your political correctness and your freedom is superficial. Democracy my balls. And fuck the liberal and femine Nazi
Not only that, but however (many) people will get offended with the most minor things.... we used to be the country where we can joke around and whatever
 
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Not only that, but however (many) people will get offended with the most minor things.... we used to be the country where we can joke around and whatever
would you rather the bystander effect, where no one does crap?
don't get me wrong, jokes are cool even racist ones but there's a line
 

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In China, as long as you don't insult the Party or China itself, due to nationalist fanatics, you have the right to express your opinion without repercussions. You simply can't do that in the West, you can not say you hate gay or black are stupid, or gender role etc, because you might offend someone or worse a group of fanatics.

And in China, what you can't say is codified, so you know exactly what to say and what not to say. In the West, it's a fucking bullshit social rules, oh black men can say nigger but white can't, comedian can be racist but other can't.

So fuck you the West, fuck your multiculturalism and fuck your political correctness and your freedom is superficial. Democracy my balls. And fuck the liberal and femine Nazi
Loving the irony that you are quite freely insulting the West with this "superficial freedom" with little repercussion which is something you can't really do in China.

I dunno man...I love insulting the government...and being able to have to say whatever the fuck I want on social media without government intervention.

Also, if I'm not mistaken I'm pretty sure the repercussions for saying something you shouldn't are much worse in China (where there is government intervention) than the West (where most of it comes from social backlash). People can freely say "muslims are stupid idiots" in Australia without getting arrested, it's just that more people can also freely say "I'm offended bitch you can't say that" and usually the more vocal/influential/unified voices are heard.
 
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Gary_Oak

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usually the more vocal/influential/unified voices are heard.
Which is a pain the arse...

would you rather the bystander effect, where no one does crap?
don't get me wrong, jokes are cool even racist ones but there's a line
I think were getting both in some aspect, both with bystander effect (eg, not many people will help you if your car break down) , and being offended

Let say you said "(insert a random name) is a faggot" secretly to your friend and some random cunt bitch out at you..... and that is annoying when some random cunt interrupt your convo with your friend all because they are offended at your conversation, even though its not directly tossed at that person

Its should be the other way around
 
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financialwar

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If you remove the government from the equation, I can tell you Chinese are much more free than you guys. Plus, most Chinese are nationalistic and ain't that interested in politics, so only minority get into trouble with the law due to their views. And also you can talk shit about the government in China online, they just censor it. The Communist Party are also much more relaxed, where as the West is going the other way.

In the West, other than the freedom to insult the government, you have less freedom in everything else compared to a Chinese citizen. You can lose your job because of the smallest shit you post on your facebook, you could be charged under anti discrimination act because you don't want to hire a certain type of people, you can't generalise one group of people. You can't paint your face black, you can't say women should stay home, you can't say fat people should lose weight to be attractive etc etc

The list goes on, you have to be both a Chinese and an Australian to realise how fucking oppressed you guys are, mostly due to multiculturalism and Americanisation of this country.

If you understand Mandarin, just watch a show called, FCWR, a spin off the Australian show Taken Out and the amount of shit ppl say on that show freely what would be deemed a career suicide if it was said in the West.
 
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If you remove the government from the equation, I can tell you Chinese are much more free than you guys. Plus, most Chinese are nationalistic and ain't that interested in politics, so only minority get into trouble due to their views.

In the West, other than the freedom to insult the government, you have less freedom in everything else compared to a Chinese citizen. You can lose your job because of the smallest shit you post on your facebook, you could be charged under anti discrimination act because you don't want to hire a certain type of people, you can't generalise one group of people. You can't paint your face black, you can't say women should stay home, you can't say fat people should lose weight to be attractive etc etc

The list goes on, you have to be both a Chinese and an Australian to realise how fucking oppressed you guys are, mostly due to multiculturalism and Americanisation of this country.
No people still do that to their own discretion. What you're saying is the nation that you claim China to have is judgemental as fk
 

financialwar

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Sure, but would you do those things publicly here? It's not judgemental, it's a fact.
 

SylviaB

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chinese have very little legal recourse in any aspect of their lives
 

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tbh s18c literally does nothing but stop your radio shock jocks from inciting Cronulla riots v2.0

if you want your freedom of speech protected lobby parliament to create a charter of rights, but i think 18c is necessary to prevent the dumb as shit situation in america where the ignorant and uneducated are able to normalise systemic racism and discrimination using the 4 magical words "i plead the first"

seriously i am not ready and willing for the westboro baptist church and co in australia
 

Trebla

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There's a difference between something you can't do because it is law and something you 'can't' do for social reasons.

You CAN do and have the right to do most of the mentioned things here and plenty of people have as long as it is lawful.

What you also have to understand is that people also CAN and also have the right to say these things shouldn't be done as well. However that is THEIR OPINION and what they say what you 'can't' do is more of a recommendation than an order. You have the right to not listen to those recommendations just as much as others have a right to make them. It's just that many people generally choose to follow those recommendations to avoid further conflict.
 

SylviaB

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tbh s18c literally does nothing but stop your radio shock jocks from inciting Cronulla riots v2.0
yeah andrew bolt was clearly going to cause riots, right?

also implying that the riots weren't justified

if you want your freedom of speech protected lobby parliament to create a charter of rights, but i think 18c is necessary to prevent the dumb as shit situation in america where the ignorant and uneducated are able to normalise systemic racism and discrimination using the 4 magical words "i plead the first"

Saying niqqer is not 'systemic racism'. Stop being such a cry baby.

seriously i am not ready and willing for the westboro baptist church and co in australia
But you are willing to tolerate muslims holding rallies demanding infidels be decapitated?
 

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