How much does school ranking impact on ATAR? (1 Viewer)

[EdenPigram]

Hey guys! I am about to enter into year 11, and although I understand how subject scaling works, I am still rather confused about the way a school cohort can impact, and how much.

I attend a school that is not high in rankings, siting around 300 mark in 2014. I really enjoy studying, and I am dedicated to get a high ATAR, so how much does school ranking affect my performance, and how can I minimize it?

Thanks, I really appreciate any advice.

 

[milkman007]

 

[Pikachuisgod]

The higher ur ranking for ur subjects in yr12 the less effect ur school ranking will have on you

 

[Librah]

Hey guys! I am about to enter into year 11, and although I understand how subject scaling works, I am still rather confused about the way a school cohort can impact, and how much.

I attend a school that is not high in rankings, siting around 300 mark in 2014. I really enjoy studying, and I am dedicated to get a high ATAR, so how much does school ranking affect my performance, and how can I minimize it?

Thanks, I really appreciate any advice.

School ranking really doesn't have an impact on how your HSC marks will turn out, it's your cohort. However higher ranking schools tend to have the more "high achieving" students, so it will usually be accompanied by strong cohorts. Therefore your moderated HSC assessment marks will usually be much higher than that of a lower ranked school if your not at the top. Just ensure you are close to the top and be 1st or very close to 1st as possible.

Just giving an example. If your ranked 1st in a high ranking school or something close to that, but you don't come 1st in externals and say get a 90 exam mark but someone in your cohort gets a 100 exam mark, your moderated assessment will be 100, and you'll end up with a 95 HSC mark. Whereas say in a low ranked school you get a 90 and are first internally, you probably won't have someone that may do better in the external exam, therefore your moderated assessment mark and exam mark will be the same and final HSC mark will be 90.

So essentially if you don't do so well in final exam, you have no carry that will save you. In addition to having to rely on yourself to achieve as high as possible.

 

[dangerouss]

There is no impact on your individual mark whatsoever.
If you're in doubt and worried about your respective cohorts 'dragging' your mark down, that will not be an issue if you're first for each and every one of your subjects.

 

[QZP]

Coming from a poor ranking school, I offer a different perspective to the above comments. I say that school ranking DOES have an impact on your ATAR.

Point 1: Poor ranking schools generally have easier exams and easier marking. Assume there is only 2 people worthy of a "high" ATAR in a cohort. After an exam, one will be 1st and the other will be 2nd. Now, whilst the skill difference between 2nd and 3rd might be very wide in actuality, 3rd might score a similar mark to 2nd due to the easy exam and easy marking. Hence... 2nd will be dragged down by their cohort since the moderation system will give similar assessment marks to 2nd and 3rd for their similar internal performance.

Point 2: The more commonly mentioned point; the mentality towards studying is a lot weaker in poor ranking schools. You can guess what effects these have.

 

[Librah]

Coming from a poor ranking school, I offer a different perspective to the above comments. I say that school ranking DOES have an impact on your ATAR.

Point 1: Poor ranking schools generally have easier exams and easier marking. Assume there is only 2 people worthy of a "high" ATAR in a cohort. After an exam, one will be 1st and the other will be 2nd. Now, whilst the skill difference between 2nd and 3rd might be very wide in actuality, 3rd might score a similar mark to 2nd due to the easy exam and easy marking. Hence... 2nd will be dragged down by their cohort since the moderation system will give similar assessment marks to 2nd and 3rd for their similar internal performance.

Point 2: The more commonly mentioned point; the mentality towards studying is a lot weaker in poor ranking schools. You can guess what effects these have.

I come from a 400+ school, for your point 1, that's not necessarily true, i've seen some of the selective/private school exams. Some are dreadfully easy, although i admit ours are probably just as if not easier. I can relate to the next part since i got 81 assessment and 93 external mark for mx2 for coming 3rd, however i can probably only blame myself for the lack of effort i put into my HSC.

For your second point, that's still more of a cohort problem then the school itself.. my school had 5 people with band 6 in total yet 4 of those people got band 6 in Chemistry. (4/9 of class including me)

I did not come 1st for any subject.

 

[dangerouss]

Coming from a poor ranking school, I offer a different perspective to the above comments. I say that school ranking DOES have an impact on your ATAR.

Point 1: Poor ranking schools generally have easier exams and easier marking. Assume there is only 2 people worthy of a "high" ATAR in a cohort. After an exam, one will be 1st and the other will be 2nd. Now, whilst the skill difference between 2nd and 3rd might be very wide in actuality, 3rd might score a similar mark to 2nd due to the easy exam and easy marking. Hence... 2nd will be dragged down by their cohort since the moderation system will give similar assessment marks to 2nd and 3rd for their similar internal performance.

Point 2: The more commonly mentioned point; the mentality towards studying is a lot weaker in poor ranking schools. You can guess what effects these have.

going to a high ranking school does not guarantee you a higher atar than if the same person were to attend a regular comprehensive school. Although what you are saying is correct, theoretically and technically speaking (aside from factors such as - examination difficulty and abilities of cohorts) going to a low ranking school DOES NOT disadvantage an individual.

 

[D94]

Coming from a poor ranking school, I offer a different perspective to the above comments. I say that school ranking DOES have an impact on your ATAR.

Point 1: Poor ranking schools generally have easier exams and easier marking. Assume there is only 2 people worthy of a "high" ATAR in a cohort. After an exam, one will be 1st and the other will be 2nd. Now, whilst the skill difference between 2nd and 3rd might be very wide in actuality, 3rd might score a similar mark to 2nd due to the easy exam and easy marking. Hence... 2nd will be dragged down by their cohort since the moderation system will give similar assessment marks to 2nd and 3rd for their similar internal performance.

Point 2: The more commonly mentioned point; the mentality towards studying is a lot weaker in poor ranking schools. You can guess what effects these have.

But both your points do not lead to your conclusion. Both your points are a somewhat cyclical argument. You say easy assessments and poor mentality occurs in low ranking schools, but you conclude that is because of school rankings. It's the same as saying those in high ranking schools will get high ATARs because they attend a high ranking school.

You can say schools that tend to have easy assessments and poorer mentality, are typically low ranked, but it is not because they are low ranked. Rankings are unofficial. They are released by SMH and other media; BOSTES has no official list of school ranks. Those ranks are also of the previous cohort. They do not affect your cohort at all. What does affect your cohort are the easy assessments and poor mentality of students, but that is not because the previous cohort achieved a low ranking.

Also, if you are ranked first in all your subjects, you have the greatest chance of getting 99.95. That is completely independent of your school rank or your peers or your school assessments. It is solely the individual's performance, and so ranking does not have any impact on your ATAR.

 

[dangerouss]

But both your points do not lead to your conclusion. Both your points are a somewhat cyclical argument. You say easy assessments and poor mentality occurs in low ranking schools, but you conclude that is because of school rankings. It's the same as saying those in high ranking schools will get high ATARs because they attend a high ranking school.

You can say schools that tend to have easy assessments and poorer mentality, are typically low ranked, but it is not because they are low ranked. Rankings are unofficial. They are released by SMH and other media; BOSTES has no official list of school ranks. Those ranks are also of the previous cohort. They do not affect your cohort at all. What does affect your cohort are the easy assessments and poor mentality of students, but that is not because the previous cohort achieved a low ranking.

Also, if you are ranked first in all your subjects, you have the greatest chance of getting 99.95. That is completely independent of your school rank or your peers or your school assessments. It is solely the individual's performance, and so ranking does not have any impact on your ATAR.

very accurate and well said.

repped !

 

[QZP]

But both your points do not lead to your conclusion. Both your points are a somewhat cyclical argument. You say easy assessments and poor mentality occurs in low ranking schools, but you conclude that is because of school rankings. It's the same as saying those in high ranking schools will get high ATARs because they attend a high ranking school.

You can say schools that tend to have easy assessments and poorer mentality, are typically low ranked, but it is not because they are low ranked. Rankings are unofficial. They are released by SMH and other media; BOSTES has no official list of school ranks. Those ranks are also of the previous cohort. They do not affect your cohort at all. What does affect your cohort are the easy assessments and poor mentality of students, but that is not because the previous cohort achieved a low ranking.

Also, if you are ranked first in all your subjects, you have the greatest chance of getting 99.95. That is completely independent of your school rank or your peers or your school assessments. It is solely the individual's performance, and so ranking does not have any impact on your ATAR.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. I don't see how the order is important here (low ranking school means easy exams + poorer mentality vs. the opposite way around) since they are still linked together. Can you clarify for me?

Since they are still liked together, is it wrong to say that going to a low ranking school means: 1) it will be harder to differentiate from poorer performing students due to easy exams + marking and thus you will be dragged down (assuming not 1st) and 2) you will be in an environment which does not really care much about studying which will impair your motivation? Hence, school ranking does have an impact on your ATAR (not directly but indirectly from the points above).

 

[dangerouss]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. I don't see how the order is important here (low ranking school means easy exams + poorer mentality vs. the opposite way around) since they are still linked together. Can you clarify for me?

Since they are still liked together, is it wrong to say that going to a low ranking school means: 1) it will be harder to differentiate from poorer performing students due to easy exams + marking and thus you will be dragged down (assuming not 1st) and 2) you will be in an environment which does not really care much about studying which will impair your motivation? Hence, school ranking does have an impact on your ATAR (not directly but indirectly from the points above).

See, you are drifting into the psychological impact. You are correct in your logic but such factors do not impair all individuals (of course this is dependent on the student) but since there is no direct link between how a school's rank would affect a student's ATAR: it cannot be concluded that going to a low ranking school will impair and prevent students from attaining the highest ATAR possible.

 

[funnytomato]

Theoretically, there's no difference. I think the system is designed in such a way that it is fair for every one.
As Yunli's example illustrates, they do take your internal rankings into account.
i.e. low ranking at higher ranked school ~ high ranking at lower ranked school

So as long as you work hard and maintain good rankings, you will not be disadvantaged at all if you're worrying about the "dragging down by bad cohort" effect.

BUT, it could be possible that teachers at lower ranked schools tend to set assessments that do not prepare you the best for the HSC.
In terms of difficulty, the assessments would probably be easier so the real HSC exam would be comparatively much harder.
Also, some teachers at schools(including selective schools, but more so in lower ranked schools) are not aware of(or not following) the BOSTES marking criteria so students could get really confused.

 

[funnytomato]

Just as a reference, a friend of my friend got 98.xx ATAR coming from a low ranked school. And the second highest ATAR was in the 80s.

 

[Librah]

Just as a reference, a friend of my friend got 98.xx ATAR coming from a low ranked school. And the second highest ATAR was in the 80s.

Can confirm, school ranking hovers at 400+ i got 97.80, dux 99.00. And some past years have gotten 99.60+. Some people on BOS here have gotten 99.50+ from similar ranked schools.

 

[QZP]

See, you are drifting into the psychological impact. You are correct in your logic but such factors do not impair all individuals (of course this is dependent on the student) but since there is no direct link between how a school's rank would affect a student's ATAR: it cannot be concluded that going to a low ranking school will impair and prevent students from attaining the highest ATAR possible.

How is easier exams/marking a psychological impact? With easier exams/marking, poorer students are able to match up more closely to the top students. Hence, any top student (excluding 1st) will be dragged down as a result.

Edit: I'm not saying that going to a low ranking school means you get a low ATAR (I myself got 99.60 from a rank ~400 school). I'm saying that for a top student, there is more at stake by going to a low ranking school since if you are not 1st you will get dragged down. And this is usually the case since there is always AT LEAST 2 "top" students, not just one. Whilst they both might be capable of 99.90 and 99.80, the person who could have potentially gotten 99.80 (i.e. the person internally ranked 2nd assuming same subjects as person ranked 1st with 99.90) would be dragged down since their internal marks are more similar to poorer performing students due to easier exams/marking. Does this clarify?

 

[dangerouss]

How is easier exams/marking a psychological impact? With easier exams/marking, poorer students are able to match up more closely to the top students. Hence, any top student (excluding 1st) will be dragged down as a result.

Edit: I'm not saying that going to a low ranking school means you get a low ATAR (I myself got 99.60 from a rank ~400 school). I'm saying that for a top student, there is more at stake by going to a low ranking school since if you are not 1st you will get dragged down. And this is usually the case since there is always AT LEAST 2 "top" students, not just one. Whilst they both might be capable of 99.90 and 99.80, the person who could have potentially gotten 99.80 (i.e. the person internally ranked 2nd assuming same subjects as person ranked 1st with 99.90) would be dragged down since their internal marks are more similar to poorer performing students due to easier exams/marking. Does this clarify?

My bad. Of course, what you're saying is given and often assumed but to my knowledge lower ranking schools often have an enormous gap between say the top 3 students and the rest of the cohort. So even though as you say, for example - ranks of students 1,2 and 3 may change within the top 3 due to easy assessments there are still also external marks. But I understand where you are coming from, you're pointing out the lack of differentiability in academic ability between students due to unchallenging assessments.

 

[D94]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. I don't see how the order is important here (low ranking school means easy exams + poorer mentality vs. the opposite way around) since they are still linked together. Can you clarify for me?

You are making the claim A = B, and therefore concluding A = B. That's not a proof.

It is not because you go to a low ranking school that assessments are easier and mentality is poorer. Rankings of one year do not affect the following year's cohort. Again, rankings are unofficial, and not completely accurate. A school could have every single student achieving a 98 ATAR yet be ranked last in the state. Simply, every student achieved a score of 89 in high scaling subjects. Those unofficial rankings are determined by the number of Band 6's, so despite a median ATAR of 98, that school is still ranked last.

You can say 'schools that have easier assessments and poorer mentality tend to be lower ranked', but that's the extent of which you can make such a claim.

Since they are still liked together, is it wrong to say that going to a low ranking school means: 1) it will be harder to differentiate from poorer performing students due to easy exams + marking and thus you will be dragged down (assuming not 1st) and 2) you will be in an environment which does not really care much about studying which will impair your motivation? Hence, school ranking does have an impact on your ATAR (not directly but indirectly from the points above).

Again, you make a circular reasoning in an attempt to prove your point. You start off with what you want to prove, i.e. 'easier assessments and poorer mentality is linked to low rankings', then you make 2 points, which you then conclude that 'school rankings affect your ATAR' (which is the same as what you were attempting to prove). That's not a proof. It's like being asked to prove 'sin²x + cos²x = 1', then you respond with 'well since we know that sin²x + cos²x = 1, therefore, sin²x + cos²x = 1'.

I'm not saying your points are invalid - your points are most certainly valid, but they are not attributed to simply being in a low ranked school.

 

[beaubrah]

can someone just clarify what I'm saying is right or wrong.

Let's say my assessment mark for English is crap due to harsh marking and I'm in the bottom part of the class but in the HSC exam I get in the high 80's or 90's, and the highest mark is 95 and the lowest mark in the exam was 80's. Does that mean the moderated assessment mark everyone gets in the class is in between 80 and 95. If so, how do they allocate the assessment mark to each person. Sorry I was abit confused with the video


atar goal:91 but will be happy with 85+

 

[funnytomato]

can someone just clarify what I'm saying is right or wrong.

Let's say my assessment mark for English is crap due to harsh marking and I'm in the bottom part of the class but in the HSC exam I get in the high 80's or 90's, and the highest mark is 95 and the lowest mark in the exam was 80's. Does that mean the moderated assessment mark everyone gets in the class is in between 80 and 95. If so, how do they allocate the assessment mark to each person. Sorry I was abit confused with the video


atar goal:91 but will be happy with 85+

from BOSTES:

For each course the procedure adjusts the mean of the school assessments to be equal to the mean of the examination marks obtained by the group. It also sets the top school assessment mark to be equal to the top examination mark, and sets the bottom assessment mark to be equal to (or close to) the bottom examination mark. All other assessment marks are adjusted accordingly. In performing this adjustment the general shape of the distribution of assessment marks submitted by a school is maintained.

read more at :

http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc-results/determining-achievement.html