Arts/Law USYD vs. Law UTS with scholarship (1 Viewer)

[Erique]

Hi guys,

I'm struggling a bit with university prospects. I've had my sights set on Sydney Law for my whole HSC, and I've finally received the ATAR that can secure me guaranteed acceptance. I fell 0.5 below the scholarship, though.

On the other hand, UTS has offered me the Vice Chancellors Award for Outstanding Achievement, granting me $12,500 per annum granted I can maintain a distinction average.

I could either potentially throw $62,500 down the drain, or I could drop to a credit average early on and have my scholarship immediately revoked. Should the same occur at Sydney, I would still be able to pick up my average, but at least I would have the benefit of its inherent reputation. It's just difficult to abandon an ambition that significantly motivated + contributed to my eventual ATAR.

I have no idea which one to pick. Anything could happen with that scholarship. My school's careers advisor told me that her friend, who works in "a big firm in the city", asserted that employers look at how good you are, as opposed to your university.

Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated!

 

[RishBonjour99]

Hey mate, firstly - that is an amazing ATAR. Congrats!


Do you need the scholarship?
You may know people who have received scholarships from non go8 universities but rejected them to pursue their degree at the university they wanted to go to for a long time. This is quite common because that's the only way someone who has received acceptance into both universities would go for the less 'reputable' or 'inferior' one. That is probably because they do not need the scholarship and that sum of money in the grand scheme of things don't mean too much. If you don't need it, I don't think there is much wrong with rejecting the offer and going to the university you wanted to.

I am also assuming that scholarship goes to the student that has the highest ATAR score because I doubt too many people with 99.5+ ATARS would be putting uts as their top preference over usyd or unsw (unless they really like the university for some reason).

Does university matter?
This is obviously high debatable and there are exceptions but generally for law - university is a big deal. Why? Plenty of universities offer a law degree e.g. UWS, ACU etc etc list goes on. If you aren't at a g08 university, your chances of getting into 'big law' is lower. How low? no one can tell. I obviously don't have extensive experience, I've just finished my 2nd year but a friend who interned at a 'big law' had 6 people in his program - 4 from usyd and 2 from unsw. This is just 1 instance but I wouldn't be surprised if this was generally reflected for all big firms. Again, someone may be able to provide a greater sample of grad or internship programs and that will give you a better idea.

Key thing to note - law is much more extensive than just the big firms. UTS law is also an exception in that it has been improving quite dramatically. Given that you'll be under their top scholarship, I honestly don't think you will experience any disadvantage if you maintain your grades (which I am almost certain you can if you work smart AND hard).

 

[Hatake88]

I say go with UTS. I've gone to both Usyd & MQ (MQ, like UTS, is considered a 'mid-tier' university) and I honestly don't think Usyd is that much better. Let me put it this way:

First off, like Rish said, yes its true that a distinction at Usyd > a distinction at UTS/MQ. However from what I've seen (as a MQ law student who has friends in Usyd in the same year), Usyd marks considerably harsher. This is because of the competition. In courses that are scaled, you will obviously have an easier time going up against a 95-97 ATAR cohort than a 99 cohort. Also, most law courses I know of in Usyd require a 70%+ final exam which is risky and something to take note of if you aren't an "exam" person. This is versus MQ where so far I have done 4 law courses and only 2 had a final exam (one was 60% and the other 20%). Personally, I find basing my final result on one performance daunting and law (regardless of Usyd/MQ/UTS) does not grant exemptions easily. E.g. unlike the HSC there is very limited special provisions & even if you get an extension, the paper you take at a later date is deliberately harder than the original etc.

Secondly, in terms of career prospects, your career advisor is right. I know two friends who are 4th year law students. Both are from MQ. Both got multiple clerkships from Sydney's top firms (e.g. Minter Ellison, Clayton Utz, Gilbert & Tobin & TMK). Granted, they were not only on a distinction average but they also had extension work experience & student leadership experience but I don't think anyone would get in on a distinction alone regardless of uni. In fact, I was told by the careers officer at MQ that a distinction average was the criteria to get the firms to look at your resume - it doesn't even secure you an interview!

Good luck! Hoped I helped! I hope I don't sound too biased and, yes, if you are into partying than Usyd has the best scene but UTS/MQ isn't all that far behind in terms of actual chances of employment etc.

 

[asi9]

USYD has the best law school in Australia

 

[jaydizzlegear]

USYD has the best law school in Australia

melbourne is better though

 

[Crobat]

Prefacing this with the fact that I am a UTS Law student.

I would definitely take that scholarship at UTS.

If you are determined to succeed in Law, you will do so anywhere and gain the recognition you'd want from where ever it is you go. The Go8's have the benefits of being around for over a century and probably the opportunities that comes with that, but if you are a candidate of any calibre, you will excel without the minute advantage of the reputation your university has.

Firstly, that scholarship program provides you with far more opportunities than Sydney Law can provide you by just being at their uni. For one, you are automatically nominated to be an applicant in a special UTS mentor program where your mentor is Ex-Justice Michael Kirby. To my knowledge, the only other university he offers a mentorship is with University of Newcastle (this is not including the general mentor programs that Justices/Judges have), and to have such a reputable name on your transcript and a personal recommendation from him will do you more favours than being at USYD. For another, you will get to know the UTS Law faculty staff and members on a personal level (particularly the Dean who worked at HSF) most of which have worked in "Big Law" and have the existing connections to get you there. One of the scholarship students I know is currently working at Minter Ellisons as a paralegal without prior experience in law in her 3rd year of uni, and another has been accepted for a 3 month internship with the UN (which is usually open only to pre-penultimates/graduates)in his 3rd year, where they have flown him to Cambodia and he will live there until uni starts again. Also, I know that the scholarship students have gotten to know Ex-Chief Justice Gerard Brennan well enough to a point where he donated $400 to a fundraiser they were having - again another huge name to have to be able to personally recommend you. Also at UTS, as Ex-CJ Gerard Brennan used to be Chancellor, the Law School set up a fantastic program called the UTS Brennan Justice and Leadership Program which awards students on volunteer experience and social/politic justice involvement; direct skills that employers at Big Law firms are now looking at: http://www.afr.com/p/national/legal...ose_from_cream_of_crop_t1zPYHKZ99s2Z5JdpAnaKI

Secondly, being at UTS doesn't mean you won't be able to get a job in Big Law, or even that it might be harder. There are so many people I know and can name off the top of my head in their 4th year currently clerking at "Big Law" firms - Clutz, HSF, Minter Ellison, both Allens, Ashurst, G+T, KWM, Piper Alderman to name a few (and I know a few graduates in those firms too from UTS), and I even know of a graduate this year who clerked at HSF, was employed as a paralegal there during her 5th year, and is now moving on to work at Goldman Sachs. This not to mention those in my current (2nd) year who are actually employed as a paralegal at some of those firms, or working in barrister's chambers. There are a number UTS graduates also working as a Tipstaff in the Supreme Court, and even one as Associate to a High Court Justice. I myself started as a Law Clerk at my firm this year (in my second year of uni) and my boss last week has told me that he wants to retain me as a solicitor for the firm when I graduate - I've essentially guaranteed my employment as a lawyer when I graduate 2 years in advance, and I'll be able to be a legally qualified practitioner too because UTS is (unless this has change in the last 2 years) the only Law school in Australia to offer your PLT during your studies (most grads have to go through PLT as a further 6 months after their degree is finished).

My point is that if you are a quality student (and I'm going to assume you are), that scholarship will do wonders for you and you'd be an idiot not to take it for the sake of the reputation that USYD's Law School has. Being a UTS student isn't going to stop you from achieving what you want.

Although, if your dream is USYD Law and you genuinely want to study there for yourself, then that's a sensible enough reason to reject the scholarship .

P.S. Working in Big Law is incredibly overrated and not really worth the return. This can be a discussion for another thread though.

 

[alstah]

I'm studying Arts/Law at USyd, and love it. I know a few friends at UTS who are studying law, some like it, some on scholarships - who wish they went to USyd instead. It's a tough job market, and overall I find USyd law students to have better opportunities than UTS law students (not to say that the top 10% of UTS don't do incredibly well).

Personally, I feel the opportunities made available to me could not have been possible without going to USyd. The university experience is far superior to UTS (where students just go to class and go home). USyd has a great atmosphere, its a fun uni experience, and i love it - especially getting involved in clubs and societies.

 

[RishBonjour99]

I'm studying Arts/Law at USyd, and love it. I know a few friends at UTS who are studying law, some like it, some on scholarships - who wish they went to USyd instead. It's a tough job market, and overall I find USyd law students to have better opportunities than UTS law students (not to say that the top 10% of UTS don't do incredibly well).

Personally, I feel the opportunities made available to me could not have been possible without going to USyd. The university experience is far superior to UTS (where students just go to class and go home). USyd has a great atmosphere, its a fun uni experience, and i love it - especially getting involved in clubs and societies.

The law god has spoken.

 

[Crobat]

I'm studying Arts/Law at USyd, and love it. I know a few friends at UTS who are studying law, some like it, some on scholarships - who wish they went to USyd instead. It's a tough job market, and overall I find USyd law students to have better opportunities than UTS law students (not to say that the top 10% of UTS don't do incredibly well).

Personally, I feel the opportunities made available to me could not have been possible without going to USyd. The university experience is far superior to UTS (where students just go to class and go home). USyd has a great atmosphere, its a fun uni experience, and i love it - especially getting involved in clubs and societies.

Sounds great man! Maybe for the benefit of OP you could elaborate a bit more on the opportunities? USYD's got some sick industry connections so surely that comes with some pretty cool gigs.

Also in regards to social life at UTS - it is significantly more difficult to have that 'university experience' at UTS because you have to be motivated to be involved and put the effort in to be involved. Once you become involved though there's a great network of social events that can really open you to the university experience. I'm on the exec of both the UTS LSS and UTS BSoc, but I also participate in the UTS Comedy Club and UTSOC, and I'm good friends with the student magazine kids who throw parties all the time too. I'm also in the process of setting up the UTS Poker Society, and all of these things I've found have created a fantastic uni experience for me and others, so it is possible (with significantly more effort) to have that UTS.

That being said when I graduate and do my LLM I'll be looking to do it at USYD.

 

[Drifting95]

I'd go for UTS personally

 

[Erique]

I've finally had time to sit down and read through all of your posts, and I'm utterly blown away. I can't thank you all enough for your comprehensive advice. I hope that regardless of which university I attend, I'll be able to link up with some of you.

Crobat, you've definitely given me a lot to consider. All of you have. As tacky as it sounds, my heart leans toward USYD, but I believe UTS might have a one-up in the long term. A lot of people have been telling me to take the scholarship based on the grant alone... but I would like to hear about what opportunities USYD has to offer. What are these "opportunities" that "enhance" your employability in a very competitive + saturated industry? What are your experiences, alstah?

UTS' stale social environment sounds troubling, but it looks like you've well and truly overcome that. Could you elaborate what you mean by socialising at UTS requiring "significantly more effort"? How would this vary from Sydney? Are societies there simply more accessible/publicised, while at UTS, people tend not to encourage you to join societies? I know I'm making a big deal out of this (seemingly trivial) aspect, but I consider the social atmosphere/university life as equally important as the opportunities relevant to my degree.

This may sound like a stupid question, but is there any racial/socioeconomic bias present in either uni (I'm more curious about Sydney)? It seems minute but I think some of my mis/preconceptions could use some debunking.

Thanks again for all of your responses! I feel like I'm too young to be making a decision like this, and I wish I personally knew more people from both to get a balanced consensus.

 

[Crobat]

UTS' stale social environment sounds troubling, but it looks like you've well and truly overcome that. Could you elaborate what you mean by socialising at UTS requiring "significantly more effort"? How would this vary from Sydney? Are societies there simply more accessible/publicised, while at UTS, people tend not to encourage you to join societies? I know I'm making a big deal out of this (seemingly trivial) aspect, but I consider the social atmosphere/university life as equally important as the opportunities relevant to my degree.

This may sound like a stupid question, but is there any racial/socioeconomic bias present in either uni (I'm more curious about Sydney)? It seems minute but I think some of my mis/preconceptions could use some debunking.

Thanks again for all of your responses! I feel like I'm too young to be making a decision like this, and I wish I personally knew more people from both to get a balanced consensus.

Not a problem, mate! This is what the forum is for, and I always strive to be as unbias as possible whilst departing my experiences/knowledge.

"Significantly more effort" in the sense that you have to will yourself to attend the social events which are often held off campus because our bars aren't really big enough or have enough bartenders to handle our usually 150+ turnout rates. Comparative to USYD/any uni with a closed campus, I say "significantly more effort" because you won't have the luxury of just "being around" most of the time and being able to just kind of fall into the convenience of attending social events that are more or less 5-10 minutes walk away.

I can tell you now that every society encourages you to join/sign up to them, so that's not really a problem. They even encourage non-members (e.g. if you're a business/IT student) to join law events because they want students to mingle and meet new people across all faculties. I think this is something that just happens everywhere. It's really mostly just a locational thing that I say "significantly more effort".

And don't worry, uni social life I think everyone unanimously agrees is really important - your 20s are supposed to be the most enjoyable time of your life and the last thing you want to do is miss out on all of that

Personally I think that UTS has a lot of people from the western suburbs but when you network deeply you meet a lot of people from the eastern suburbs too. It seems people from the North mostly go to UNSW I would say. But that's kind of just who I meet.

 

[humanitieslover]

Hey Eric! I'm so sorry for the ridiculously late response. I'll mesage you as well as post on here just incase!
I was in a very similar position to you last year. As you know, I went with the UTS scholarship and I'm so so glad I did. I know that UTS may come off as having a "stale" social environment, but honestly, unless you actually go there I really don't think you'll know or even be able to make a judgement. One of my close friends also received the scholarship and decided to take it and we have both found the absolutely amazing thing that is UTS. Socially, your enjoyment at Uni depends on you. Finding friends will really depend on how willing you are and how open you are. I've found that there are so many people who are just happy to talk to you (complete strangers in fact!). To me, the UTS community is what I love. Especially the Law community. Everyone is so tight knit and friendly. Before starting at UTS, I imagined Law students to be incredibly competitive. So far I've found that everyone is hardworking but also pretty chilled and happy to help. Going on from what Crobat said (hey Crobat! thanks for all the help this year), I do believe that the scholarship has offered me opportunities that I doubt I would be getting at USYD. Take into account, I've only just finished my first year. If it were me (despite being obviously biased), I would take the scholarship. I also had my heart set on USYD, but I now know that UTS is the university for me. In terms of employment prospects- I truly believe that it is up to you how dedicated you are in relation to both academics and extracurriculars. Knowing you from the few lessons I tutored you haha- I think you're motivated and hardworking enough! The only thing that I would consider if I were you is your other degree. For example, I'm doing Communications because it's something I love. If you absolutely loved Arts, then maybe USYD is for you given their amazing reputation. In the end it's really up to you and how you perceive yourself and your uni experience. If you know you'll be happier at USYD then go for it! But I'm 10000% sure that you'll love it as soon as you get to UTS if you do decide to come

Best of luck!!

 

[Chronost]

Hey Eric! I'm so sorry for the ridiculously late response. I'll mesage you as well as post on here just incase!
I was in a very similar position to you last year. As you know, I went with the UTS scholarship and I'm so so glad I did. I know that UTS may come off as having a "stale" social environment, but honestly, unless you actually go there I really don't think you'll know or even be able to make a judgement. One of my close friends also received the scholarship and decided to take it and we have both found the absolutely amazing thing that is UTS. Socially, your enjoyment at Uni depends on you. Finding friends will really depend on how willing you are and how open you are. I've found that there are so many people who are just happy to talk to you (complete strangers in fact!). To me, the UTS community is what I love. Especially the Law community. Everyone is so tight knit and friendly. Before starting at UTS, I imagined Law students to be incredibly competitive. So far I've found that everyone is hardworking but also pretty chilled and happy to help. Going on from what Crobat said (hey Crobat! thanks for all the help this year), I do believe that the scholarship has offered me opportunities that I doubt I would be getting at USYD. Take into account, I've only just finished my first year. If it were me (despite being obviously biased), I would take the scholarship. I also had my heart set on USYD, but I now know that UTS is the university for me. In terms of employment prospects- I truly believe that it is up to you how dedicated you are in relation to both academics and extracurriculars. Knowing you from the few lessons I tutored you haha- I think you're motivated and hardworking enough! The only thing that I would consider if I were you is your other degree. For example, I'm doing Communications because it's something I love. If you absolutely loved Arts, then maybe USYD is for you given their amazing reputation. In the end it's really up to you and how you perceive yourself and your uni experience. If you know you'll be happier at USYD then go for it! But I'm 10000% sure that you'll love it as soon as you get to UTS if you do decide to come

Best of luck!!

Old thread but commenting the ironic part about this when I look at sig now- at the end of the day everyone has had that itch to settle for UNSW/USYD one time or another when they're at a different uni - some take it , some don't - Alstah comments the primary reasons which are all true, even more so to Commerce tbh

Prefacing this with the fact that I am a UTS Law student.

P.S. Working in Big Law is incredibly overrated and not really worth the return. This can be a discussion for another thread though.

Lol, Crobat has also been enlightened after more then a year





Oh how things change over years

 

[wannaspoon]

P.S. Working in Big Law is incredibly overrated and not really worth the return. This can be a discussion for another thread though.

All you guys would give your left nut for it though...

But, you are most certainly not wrong...

 

[neo o]

All you guys would give your left nut for it though...

But, you are most certainly not wrong...

Just for the resume. It's signalling, 2 years at a big law firm is a nice thing to have.

 

[wannaspoon]

And do what after that two years of experience building??? Move on to a mid tier firm where you can have somewhat of a stable lifestyle because you realised you fucked up by getting hired in a "big firm"...

The thing that pisses me off about most Law students are those who have delusional visions of grandeur... They end up getting what they want and then hating it...

 

[neo o]

And do what after that two years of experience building??? Move on to a mid tier firm where you can have somewhat of a stable lifestyle because you realised you fucked up by getting hired in a "big firm"...

The thing that pisses me off about most Law students are those who have delusional visions of grandeur... They end up getting what they want and then hating it...

Oh, I deliberately implied that there would be no experience building involved. It's just status signalling

 

[wannaspoon]

Oh, I deliberately implied that there would be no experience building involved. It's just status signalling

Fair call, actually... would be a nice thing to have if you were gunning to become Barrister and all... Still, don't think it's worth the trouble...

Better off studying Business/Law and gunning for a place like EY or PwC when you graduate (which you could probably still do with a straight Law degree)... Of course I am only saying this if the graduate fits the bill... Much better than being a slave at a big firm...