• Congratulations to the Class of 2024 on your results!
    Let us know how you went here
    Got a question about your uni preferences? Ask us here

Unborn baby dies after Jehovah refuses treatment (1 Viewer)

Selador

Premium Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
207
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/pregnant-...fter-mother-and-baby-die-20150406-1mf570.html

A pregnant Jehovah's Witness and her baby have died after the woman refused a blood transfusion in a Sydney hospital.
Thoughts?

Does the state have a legitimate interest in overriding the mother's decision in order to potentially save the unborn child? After all the unborn child did not subscribe to the religious beliefs nor does it have the ability to give informed consent. How should this conflict of interests be resolved (if one indeed exists)? Or does the mother have an absolute right to decide.

"Refusal of a lifesaving intervention by an informed patient is generally well respected, but the right of a mother to refuse such interventions on behalf of her fetus is more controversial," they wrote. "A doctor indeed has moral obligations to both the pregnant woman, and perhaps with differing priority to the unborn fetus. Circumstances where fetal and maternal autonomy conflict, or where fetal beneficence conflicts with maternal autonomy, create challenges."

Dr Kidson-Gerber said as more fetal-specific conditions become available, there would be more cases where the interests of the fetus and the interests of the mother conflicted.
 
Last edited:

Queenroot

I complete the Squar3
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
7,487
Location
My bathtub
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
The state shouldn't have the right to dictate people's bodies and what's within them. Unfortunately life goes to waste, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
 

turntaker

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
3,908
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2015
The state shouldn't have the right to dictate people's bodies and what's within them. Unfortunately life goes to waste, but that's how the fetus crumbles.
ftfy
 

wannaspoon

ремове кебаб
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
1,401
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
Uni Grad
2014
Prosecutions launching a murder trial because of news report in 3... 2... 1

EDIT: Oh, the mum died too... Well... Carry on... Unless they want to go for the hospital... Doubt it though...
 
Last edited:

isildurrrr1

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
1,756
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Prosecutions launching a murder trial because of news report in 3... 2... 1

EDIT: Oh, the mum died too... Well... Carry on... Unless they want to go for the hospital... Doubt it though...
have fun prosecuting someone for exercising their religious beliefs.

Not saying I agree with it, but end of the day it's religious beliefs.
 

Hannelore

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
78
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2012
Ahaha stupid Christians.
Not sure if being sarcastic or not, so just in case I would like to point out that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians.

Sad story. I wonder how this could play out in the future, given differing viewpoints on when the foetus/embro is its own person if ever. At what point would the state be allowed to start intervening?
 

isildurrrr1

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
1,756
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Not sure if being sarcastic or not, so just in case I would like to point out that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians.

Sad story. I wonder how this could play out in the future, given differing viewpoints on when the foetus/embro is its own person if ever. At what point would the state be allowed to start intervening?
Yes they are christians what are you talking about. Christianity has many many denominations.
 

asparagus

Active Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
139
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
the unborn child isn't a person so has no sovereign rights the state should protect
 

asparagus

Active Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
139
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
. The English case of R v Blaue serves to illustrate
this point. There, a Jehovah's witness, pursuant to her religious beliefs,
refused a blood transfusion which would almost certainly have saved her
life. The jury might on such facts conclude that her death was reasonably
foreseeable as a consequence of the vicious assault, even if it was not
reasonably foreseeable that she would refuse a blood transfusion. In cases
where the jury decides that the accident excuse does negate homicide liability,
it would be possible to convict of other offences. If the offender was
particularly culpable, these include attempted murder and wounding or doing
grievous bodily harm with intent. These offences carry high maxima and
already cater for very serious offenders, including those who escape homicide
liability because the victim narrowly survives a brutal assault.
The second situation is where the defendant is less culpable - for
example, where a "moderate punch" 22 causes death because of the victim's
susceptibility but the defendant did not intend to kill or do serious injury.
Under the traditional view this would not constitute wilful murder and almost
certainly not any species of murder.23 However, in the absence of another
excuse such as self-defence, it would be manslaughter; the accident excuse
would be inapplicable and the Crown would not need to prove that the
defendant intended or foresaw the result, or even that helshe was grossly
negligent. To impose liability for the serious offence of manslaughter in
this way is to suspend normal principles of criminal responsibility in favour
of the draconian view that the offender must take all the consequences which
flow from hislher acts.24 The alternative of putting the foreseeability test to
the jury is more just. It also accords with the law in Germany where, after
much sophisticated debate, it was considered unjust to hold that the defendant
always takes the victim as found. There, legislation now requires that the
ultimate harm be foreseeable at the time of the act.25
 

asparagus

Active Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
139
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
the point seems to be that if you injured someone who might otherwise have been saved from a blood transfusion you're still liable for the consequences of that person's religious choices.
 

turntaker

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
3,908
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2015
Yes they are christians what are you talking about. Christianity has many many denominations.
Yeah they are Christian but any religion taken to extreme boundaries will result in unethical outcomes.
 

Hannelore

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
78
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2012
Yes they are christians what are you talking about. Christianity has many many denominations.
Christianity does have many denominations (e.g. Protestant, Anglican, Methodist, and others) but Jehovah's Witnesses are not one of them. A core belief in Christianity is in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that he is the only way to God/Heaven. Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity nature of Christ and his resurrection. Big difference.

EDIT: There are several other quite significant differences but I think that this one is the main one. Although I probably should point out that there are likely people who disagree but the vast majority of Christians would not believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are a denomination of Christ.

In my view, the differences are too much. You can't have such conflicting views on God, Jesus, Salvation, and the Afterlife (which is basically all the main themes that I can think of in most religions) and still consider yourself 'basically the same religion'.
 
Last edited:

Hannelore

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
78
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2012
the unborn child isn't a person so has no sovereign rights the state should protect
I'm confused now; I always thought that once an unborn child reaches a certain point it does have rights. I thought because there is a certain point in a pregnancy where abortion is not legal I assumed it was because the child has gotten sovereign rights.

And since the unborn child in this case was seven months it was at that point, wasn't it?

Or have I got it completely backwards and the abortion limits aren't to do with the child's rights at all? :confused:
 

isildurrrr1

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
1,756
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Christianity does have many denominations (e.g. Protestant, Anglican, Methodist, and others) but Jehovah's Witnesses are not one of them. A core belief in Christianity is in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that he is the only way to God/Heaven. Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity nature of Christ and his resurrection. Big difference.

EDIT: There are several other quite significant differences but I think that this one is the main one. Although I probably should point out that there are likely people who disagree but the vast majority of Christians would not believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are a denomination of Christ.

In my view, the differences are too much. You can't have such conflicting views on God, Jesus, Salvation, and the Afterlife (which is basically all the main themes that I can think of in most religions) and still consider yourself 'basically the same religion'.
What are you talking about? Jehovah's witness' do believe in Christ as a deity. They're as chritians as Mormons are, doesn't matter what "other" christians would like to think. Shit you can bet your ass some catholics think catholicism is the only true bastion of christianity.
 

Hannelore

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
78
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2012
What are you talking about? Jehovah's witness' do believe in Christ as a deity. They're as chritians as Mormons are, doesn't matter what "other" christians would like to think. Shit you can bet your ass some catholics think catholicism is the only true bastion of christianity.
That probably wasn't worded as well as I would have liked. What I meant was that (based off of my research and understanding) "Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", and that his life began in heaven. He is described as God's first creation and the "exact representation of God", but is believed to be a separate entity and not part of a Trinity." So to me that's not really a deity like in the Christian belief system.

It's a much different deity if he was created by God. Christians believe that Christ was begotten, and believe in the trinity. As in Christ IS God.

There's other significant differences between the two faiths though which make it seem to me to be unable to be considered a Christian denomination. Like beliefs about the afterlife (annihilation vs hell), salvation (saved by works vs saved by grace).

Of course there are differences in Christian denominations too but the key concepts are the same; things like the nature of Christ, the way to salvation, and the afterlife.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top