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Moderate muslims? (2 Viewers)

Loudvicuna

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What's wrong with that LOL ? You don't kill a disease by killing each individual cell you find the source of the disease and attack that so no more arise...
It shows how fragile muslims are to commit terrorism because of supposed racism and Islamophobia. What needs to actually be addressed is the Quran so that teachings are specified and aren't taken out of context to justify Allah Akbar kaboom
 

dan964

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I never said it was irrelevant... It just depends on context... If there was a war to just break out where religion A attacks Islam and there is war declared this verse wouldn't be irrelevant...

Also conditions for war is you can't declare war by yourself you have to be a nation, there has to be two distinct sides eg: Country A and country B otherwise civil war would break out etc... Do any of the wars atm satisfy this?
Merely an assertion.
What about the war within? The war that some wish to wage against unbelievers, or the West?
I am sorry, but I feel as it you are taking it out of context. " religion A attacks Islam" - it should be the other way around as well. What if in the context of war (or not); Surah 9:29 is actually a call to war? Then what?

There is a reason why Islam means submission, the question is why?

From a muslim source (linked earlier)
Though the people of the Book professed to believe in Allah and the Hereafter, in fact they believed in neither. For only that person really believes in Allah who acknowledges Him as the only one God and the only one Lord, and does not associate with Him any other, whatsoever, in His Being, in His characteristics, in His rights and in His powers and authority. But according to this definition of shirk both the Christians and the Jews were guilty of shirk as has been made plain in the verses that follow: therefore their profession of belief in Allah was meaningless. Likewise they did not really believe in the Hereafter, in spite of the fact that they believed in resurrection. For it is not enough: one must also believe that on that Day absolute justice will be done on the basis of one’s belief and actions. One should also believe that no ransom and no expiation and no spiritual relationships with any saint shall be of any avail on that Day. It is absolutely meaningless to believe in the Hereafter without this. And the Jews and the Christians had polluted their faiths because they believed that such things would protect them against justice on that day.

The second reason why Jihad should be waged against them is that they did not adopt the law sent down by Allah through His Messenger.
====
This is the aim of Jihad with the Jews and the Christians and it is not to force them to become Muslims and adopt the Islamic way of life. They should be forced to pay jizyah in order to put an end to their independence and supremacy so that they should not remain rulers and sovereigns in the land. These powers should be wrested from them by the followers of the true faith, who should assume the sovereignty and lead others towards the right way, while they should become their subjects and pay jizyah. Jizyah is paid by those non-Muslims who live as zimmis (proteges) in an Islamic state, in exchange for the security and protection granted to them by it. This is also symbolical of the fact that they themselves agree to live in it as its subjects. This is the significance of “they pay the tribute out of (their) hand,” that is, “with full consent so that they willingly become the subjects of the believers, who perform the duty of the vicegerents of Allah on the earth.”

At first this command applied only to the Jews and the Christians. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself extended it to the Zoroastrians also. After his death, his companions unanimously applied this rule to all the non Muslim nations outside Arabia.

This is jizyah of which the Muslims have been feeling apologetic during the last two centuries of their degeneration and there are still some people who continue to apologize for it. But the way of Allah is straight and clear and does not stand in need of any apology to the rebels against Allah. Instead of offering apologies on behalf of Islam for the measure that guarantees security of life, property and faith to those who choose to live under its protection, the Muslims should feel proud of such a humane law as that of jizyah. For it is obvious that the maximum freedom that can be allowed to those who do not adopt the Way of Allah but choose to tread the ways of error is that they should be tolerated to lead the life they like. That is why the Islamic state offers them protection, if they agree to live as its zimmis by paying jizyah, but it cannot allow that they should remain supreme rulers in any place and establish wrong ways and impose them on others. As this state of things inevitably produces chaos and disorder, it is the duty of the true Muslims to exert their utmost to bring to an end their wicked rule and bring them under a righteous order.

As regards the question, “What do the non-Muslims get in return for jizyah”, it may suffice to say that it is the price of the freedom which the Islamic state allows them in following their erroneous ways, while living in the jurisdiction of Islam and enjoying its protection. The money thus collected is spent in maintaining the righteous administration that gives them the freedom and protects their rights. This also serves as a yearly reminder to them that they have been deprived of the honor of paying Zakat in the Way of Allah, and forced to pay jizyah instead as a price of following the ways of error.
 
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Drsoccerball

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====
" Most Christians ask the Father through Jesus", with the exception of some Catholics, who ask via a priest/Mary but that is a whole different minefield there. The reason for this is through Jesus, and this ties in with salvation/redemption which Jesus does; i.e. save people from sins; giving us access to God the Father. (Italics add for technicality reasons)

There is no intermediary “persons” so in that case there’s “Freedom from disturbance.” - this statement is incoherent to me, sorry. Hardly a disturbance for someone like me to pray to the Father through Jesus, my saviour (and king may I add). Hardly a disturbance.
Imagine you have a king in the room and whenever you want to speak to him you say to the prince "Can you tell the king that I said..." even though the king can clearly hear you... This can be seen as ignoring and often people do this when ignoring someone.






"Regardless of that if it was a religion of violence there would be 1000’s of verses mentioning killing people but there is only a few. "
I am sure people can find a list, it isn't hard. There are comparative more; yes they can be taken out of context.

I also wonder what you think of Surah 5:32-33?
Verse 32? If you kill one innocent person it's like killing the whole humankind... Yes I agree another verse which people tend not to quote when talking about the so called "violent side of Islam." But what you most likely are referring to is the next verse.

"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment"

This is in a war context and declaring war against a nation/muslims of the time. These are referring to people who wage war and do nothing but attempt to corrupt. Exiled and killed can be explained even if they were apart of the Muslim's rule as it can be seen as treason...Now why crucifixion and cutting of hands and feet? Well in short its like a deterrent for treason and is better than death (cutting a hand off is better than dying which is the punishment of treason in most countries) and these are done according to the nature of the crime. eg: If I try to strangle someone because they're muslim the hand I would strangle them would get cut off. Well of course the defendant has a choice not to... Now treason can be seen as war... so if they persist to try and kill muslims even though they dont leave the country they get their hands cut off feet then they will be killed to make an example.
 

Drsoccerball

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It shows how fragile muslims are to commit terrorism because of supposed racism and Islamophobia. What needs to actually be addressed is the Quran so that teachings are specified and aren't taken out of context to justify Allah Akbar kaboom
I agree with you and is what I'vebeen saying for the past few pages...
 

dan964

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Imagine you have a king in the room and whenever you want to speak to him you say to the prince "Can you tell the king that I said..." even though the king can clearly hear you... This can be seen as ignoring and often people do this when ignoring someone.

This analogy is obviously very simplistic, but hardly think that most analogies work anyway.

Clearly you don't understand the Christian faith, especially sin (separation from God)/redemption. You don't understand the concept of the Messiah either then.

====
Let me explain in brief detail (according to my belief - Christianity).
But we are not, we are separated from him because of sin (rejecting him). In order for God's justice and us to be forgiven and allowed to be in God's presence; the demands to be met; atonement was needed, in the OT this was through the sacrifices, but this is a shadow, the reality and final atonement: this is through Jesus' death & resurrection.
So through Jesus we have access to the Father e.g.
Jesus answered, “I am the Way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.. And there are numerous verses like this in the New Testament.

2. The Messiah was God's appointed king/representative in a way**. So think of it more of a representative government/or a court of law, where Jesus is our representative/attorney before God. In fact that is what prophets did they kinda of mediated between God and men ("Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." - This is because God is great in holiness, majesty etc.) .
(**which is why he had to both fully God and fully man, but I will leave that aside for now)

I am not expecting you to agree with this; but there is just a reason.
===



Verse 32? If you kill one innocent person it's like killing the whole humankind... Yes I agree another verse which people tend not to quote when talking about the so called "violent side of Islam." But what you most likely are referring to is the next verse.

No I am actually referring to the full verse 32, which is not what you quoted. Yes verse 33 is relevant, but needs verse 32

===
here is the full text
"[32] Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. ** And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors. [33] Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,"

Two things of interest:
1. Surah 5:32, is quoted out of context by yourself. The full verse, indicates that it is a quotation from the Jewish Talmud, and secondly the instruction is directed towards Israel, not Muslims.
2. Surah 5:33, which is where this verse comes in. Whose instruction is that? Not the Jews as the change in subject (noted at **).

so that is a concern, is the peaceful verse of Quran is actually from Jewish sources...
 
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Drsoccerball

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Imagine you have a king in the room and whenever you want to speak to him you say to the prince "Can you tell the king that I said..." even though the king can clearly hear you... This can be seen as ignoring and often people do this when ignoring someone.
Clearly you don't understand the Christian faith, especially sin (separation from God)/redemption. You don't understand the concept of the Messiah either then.
Explain what I have misinterpreted
Verse 32? If you kill one innocent person it's like killing the whole humankind... Yes I agree another verse which people tend not to quote when talking about the so called "violent side of Islam." But what you most likely are referring to is the next verse.
No I am actually referring to the full verse 32, which is not what you quoted. Yes verse 33 is relevant, but needs verse 32

===
here is the full text
"[32] Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. ** And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors. [33] Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,"

Two things of interest:
1. Surah 5:32, is quoted out of context by yourself. The full verse, indicates that it is a quotation from the Jewish Talmud, and secondly the instruction is directed towards Israel, not Muslims.
2. Surah 5:33, which is where this verse comes in. Whose instruction is that? Not the Jews as the change in subject (noted at **).

so that is a concern, is the peaceful verse of Quran is actually from Jewish sources...
regardless it's a commandment of God if God says don't kill innocent people he would not change his mind ? At least I believe that... And since it is mentioning it in the Quran it means it must be a command to us aswell.
 
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Drsoccerball

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they need one of their own to stand up and show some leadership
Most Muslim's are concerned with which nation is better rather than the original teaching where "The Ummah (All Muslims) are like a body if one part hurts the rest of the body aches"
 

dan964

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QUOTE: if God says don't kill innocent people he would not change his mind ?
Context, again... (Taking it out of context again)

Apparently if your treatment of the Torah and Gospel is what I think it is; then apparently so.
(Islam would be better to not try to use these to prove the coming of Mohammed, as this is an inconsistent case)
The OT predicts the coming of the Messiah; and (at least according to Christians), Jesus fulfills this, as recorded in the Gospel (the witnesses of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; and the letters of the NT + Acts, Revelation).

If there are any issues, just PM, DrSoccerball.
 
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Drsoccerball

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Let me explain in brief detail (according to my belief - Christianity).
But we are not, we are separated from him because of sin (rejecting him). In order for God's justice and us to be forgiven and allowed to be in God's presence; the demands to be met; atonement was needed, in the OT this was through the sacrifices, but this is a shadow, the reality and final atonement: this is through Jesus' death & resurrection.
So through Jesus we have access to the Father e.g.
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
And there are numerous verses like this in the New Testament.

I think you are taking "through me" way too literally... I would've interpreted it as during that time would be " No one can be on the right path unless you follow me."I don't understand how you a prerequisite for things to be done would be to ask Jesus to ask God...?
2. The Messiah was God's appointed king/representative in a way**. So think of it more of a representative government/or a court of law, where Jesus is an attorney before God. In fact that is what prophets did they kinda of mediated between God and men ("Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." - This is because God is great in holiness, majesty etc.)
(**which is why he had to both fully God and fully man, but I will leave that aside for now)
===
Then why do you guys do it only for Jesus ? Did jesus even say anywhere that he wanted to die for humanities sins? Doesn't the bible say:
Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
(Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
As much as I would like to call onto the contradiction of being immortal and mortal at the same time it's not apart of the topic.

No I am actually referring to the full verse 32, which is not what you quoted. Yes verse 33 is relevant, but needs verse 32
Well yes obviously I didn't quote it since we were talking about "The non-peaceful Islam" and all of a sudden you changed the topic without any sign of it lol I can't read your mind...

===
 

Drsoccerball

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QUOTE: if God says don't kill innocent people he would not change his mind ?
Context, again... (Taking it out of context again)

Apparently if your treatment of the Torah and Gospel is what I think it is; then apparently so.
(Islam would be better to not try to use these to prove the coming of Mohammed, as this is an inconsistent case)
The OT predicts the coming of the Messiah; and (at least according to Christians), Jesus fulfills this, as recorded in the Gospel (the witnesses of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; and the letters of the NT + Acts, Revelation).

If there are any issues, just PM, DrSoccerball.
This was actually coincidental as I just sent you a reply to the Moses being more similar to Muhammad than Jesus (pbut) :p
 

dan964

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This was actually coincidental as I just sent you a reply to the Moses being more similar to Muhammad than Jesus (pbut) :p
God bless. I have replied. Deuteronomy 18 was very relevant my friend.
In short, I also note: that Mohammed was not a Jew; like Moses was. The argument you used was highly inconsistent, and focused on other things, rather than focusing on what Moses meant when he said "someone like him". I replied in full on PM.
 

Drsoccerball

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God bless. I have replied. Deuteronomy 18 was very relevant my friend.
In short, I also note: that Mohammed was not a Jew; like Moses was. The argument you used was highly inconsistent, and focused on other things, rather than focusing on what Moses meant when he said "someone like him". I replied in full on PM.
Just quickly Among my Bretheren doesn't mean he has to be a Jew he was directly linked through Abraham and thus has technically Jewish blood (no matter how little)
 

dan964

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Just quickly Among my Bretheren doesn't mean he has to be a Jew he was directly linked through Abraham and thus has technically Jewish blood (no matter how little)
Did you actually read what I replied with. The usage of the word in Deuteronomy 18 itself refers to Jews.
secondly the issue of the Satanic verses in the Quran pops up as well.
 

Drsoccerball

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Did you actually read what I replied with. The usage of the word in Deuteronomy 18 itself refers to Jews.
secondly the issue of the Satanic verses in the Quran pops up as well.
Read my message:p can't read the response at the moment don't get angry...
 

dan964

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Yes, they do.
(Exodus 20:5)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Deuteronomy 5:9)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Exodus 34:6-7)--"Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
(1 Cor. 15:22)--"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."


No, they don't.
(Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
(Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

On the other hand, Deuteronomy 24:16 is dealing with legal matters as the context 24:6-19 shows. Ezekiel 18:20 is merely recounting the Law of the Pentateuch. Therefore, the context of the second set of verses is dealing with the legality aspect within the Jewish court system. The previous set of verses deal with God visiting upon the descendants of the rebellious the consequences of the rebellious fathers' sins.
 

dan964

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Read my message:p can't read the response at the moment don't get angry...
====
Well yes obviously I didn't quote it since we were talking about "The non-peaceful Islam" and all of a sudden you changed the topic without any sign of it lol I can't read your mind...
1. not angry, take your time.
2. why didn't you? It isn't actually that peaceful when quoted in full considering it is quoted from the Talmud, and secondly is instruction for Jews.
 

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I'm taking a jab at muslims, because they are vile, backward people who are causing harm to non-muslims.

If muslims just stayed in their own countries killing each other, hanging homosexuals, mutilating their daughers' gentials and all of those other things that comprise muslim culture then I would mind my own business and leave them be, but they dont stay in their own countries at all.

You keep ignoring this point, but I'll mention it again: According to people like you, saying mean stuff about muslims is worse than muslims actually persecuting millions of christians around the world.
First, have a listen to this, I thought he was fairly reasonable with all his arguments and counter arguments. Let me know if you disagree with any points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw&ab_channel=BuzzSourse

Second, don't confuse 'muslim' with 'arab'. Not the same thing. Largest muslim country isn't in the middle east - its Indonesia.

Also, atrocities are being committed by 'members' allegedly following a particular religion - e.g. See Rohingya people issue in Myanmar.

And there is a clear difference between genuinely criticizing a religion and engaging with a productive debate compared to ridiculing the religion and subsequently dismissing anything said by the other side as 'oh they are stupid'.

I know this is a troll thing and being BoS, I don't expect or want to get into any religious arguments because 1) I can't see you/you're reactions or actually engage in a proper debate and 2) I don't really care what happens on a HSC website - hence I stay away from these sections.

But please do watch the video
 

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