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Marriage equality (5 Viewers)

nerdasdasd

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See, when a secular government extends the right of ceremonial marriage to gay people, it shall no longer be seen as something odd or an option in the eye of the religious person in the workplace. That's how secular governments work. You don't want something like that to happen, you move to one of the numerous countries in the Middle East.

I don't believe that a church should be forced to celebrate gay marriage, since that is not government territory and the church is free to think whatever they like. But if you're a government celebrant then tough luck! If you're a florist or baker, tough luck! Because if you choose to deny service to people because of their sexual orientation, then you are already committing the offence of discrimination which has long existed and is outside the issue of gay marriage.
Australia does not exactly have a secular government and so isn't the rest of the developed world (in contrary to what people think).

Beliefs, laws and values were passed down from Christianity ( and that means our ethics are too) and government members hold these values. We also have christian programs like the pastoral thing. ALSO, when some liberals joined the government and was sworn in, they referenced God.
 

Squar3root

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So what you are telling me is (I'll give it to you in a hypothetical):
- If I a Muslim was working in a meat processing plant that didn't deal with pork;
- The meat processing plant then decided to tend to pork products;
- They forced the Muslim to handle those products;
- The Muslim man resists on the grounds of his religion;
- That Muslim man should be punished? Because the celebrants justification was, after all, religion...
Just find another job lol
 

soloooooo

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So what you are telling me is (I'll give it to you in a hypothetical):
- If I a Muslim was working in a meat processing plant that didn't deal with pork;
- The meat processing plant then decided to tend to pork products;
- They forced the Muslim to handle those products;
- The Muslim man resists on the grounds of his religion;
- That Muslim man should be punished? Because the celebrants justification was, after all, religion...
I absolutely agree with you. +1
 

wannaspoon

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Just find another job lol
Precisely!!!! (to an extent, that is the beauty of the free market), The argument, however, is not based on the notions of finding another job because you disagree with something... The argument is being placed in a precarious position at your place of employment, resisting on the premise that it contradicts your moral practices, and being punished for that... The argument is based on whether we punish people for this resistance... Do we use the Government to impose values, or do we let people live their own individual lives as they please...

In a sense, you would still potentially be punished for "finding another job" on the basis that you have resisted and refused to conduct that line of work...
 
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Queenroot

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Either way, with the US lady you brought up, she was disobeying the law, not just refusing to do her job.
 

Rouz

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A secular government is a government which declares itself neutral on matters of belief
A secular government is neutral on matters of belief in the sense that it is unmoved by religious values and religious lobbyists, not in the sense that it is passive on such issues.

The Secularism that you are actually arguing is that you are saying the government should get involved in your personal life to the extent that it restricts your freedom to practice your religion in accordance with your interpretation of that said religion
That would be correct, if we were talking about a priest being forced to bless a gay couple, or a Muslim being forced to deal with pork. We're taking about a baker or a florist or a government celebrant. Interactions between people in a specifically non-religious context are civil matters governed by the state and religion has no say in it. If a baker chooses to not bake a wedding cake for a gay couple, that's not the baker's interpretation of his religion. That's discrimination.

I fail to see why, for a professional, preparing a bouquet or baking a cake or signing a document for a gay couple somehow goes against the professional's religion or their interpretation of their religion.

Don't like it, do your business elsewhere, that's what the free market is all about
Again, a gay couple should not have to do their business elsewhere because the florist is frankly, being a sore dick.
 
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mcchicken

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I'm going to become a baker but refuse to bake cakes for mixed raced marriages because that's against my religion

You can't make me bake a cake for a black person and a white person to cut together??????

I make so much sense

(Note: sarcasm)
 

Drsoccerball

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I'm going to become a baker but refuse to bake cakes for mixed raced marriages because that's against my religion

You can't make me bake a cake for a black person and a white person to cut together??????

I make so much sense

(Note: sarcasm)
At the end of the day it's a greater benefit for the baker to bake the cake in terms of profit. Go somewhere else where they do do it, its the bakers choice...
 

soloooooo

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Lets see if Labor make this their main election issue, I bet they don't.
 

Rouz

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Lets see if Labor make this their main election issue, I bet they don't.
I think so too. It wouldn't work out too well for them because in 2016 and in Australia, there are still religious bigots and sore dick florists and bakers who'd vote Liberal just to protect their outdated opinions and monopoly on the society.
 

soloooooo

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I think so too. It wouldn't work out too well for them because in 2016 and in Australia, there are still religious bigots and sore dick florists and bakers who'd vote Liberal just to protect their outdated opinions and monopoly on the society.
but all of the gay lobby groups unscientific polls always show 70 to 80% support! Unless the results are overstated/false/unscientific...
 

nerdasdasd

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I think so too. It wouldn't work out too well for them because in 2016 and in Australia, there are still religious bigots and sore dick florists and bakers who'd vote Liberal just to protect their outdated opinions and monopoly on the society.
hah!

Name calling at it's best. "All Liberals and people who vote for them are outdated, bigots and sore losers".

" Bigotry is the expression of hatred or aggression towards those who are different."

The liberals aren't the ones hating same sex people. THey aren't calling for trans or same sex people to get stomped on or kicked. They simply just have a different opinion (which is fine tbh)
 

Rouz

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Name calling at it's best. "All Liberals and people who vote for them are outdated, bigots and sore losers".
I never said all Liberals are bigots nor did I say that everybody who votes Liberal is a loser.
I merely implied that for some people, marriage equality is such a big issue that they'd have Liberal rather than Labor in office, even though in many fields Liberal is not delivering.
 

wannaspoon

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I think so too. It wouldn't work out too well for them because in 2016 and in Australia, there are still religious bigots and sore dick florists and bakers who'd vote Liberal just to protect their outdated opinions and monopoly on the society.
Calling Liberal voters out as bigots when they actually have genuine concerns... Yeah, that would do a lot to sway voters towards your so called cause... (Don't know where you got the impression that I even vote in the first place...)

You're making out that being a part of the LGBTI community is the "in thing" to be in... Truth of the matter is, the LGBTI community struggles to make up 3% of the demographic in Australia... Why should I bend over backwards (no pun intended), for a community that makes up such a small minority... I'm not condoning the prohibition of same sex marriage, but I certainly should not have this value imposed on my by shame and guilt in the event where I have a disapproval over it (this collective shaming is normally met with resistance, which is rightfully justified)... I certainly should not have it spoon fed to me against my will also...

Now, if I was bigoted, I would emphasize blanket disapproval over the notions of same sex marriage...

I love the monopoly reference too, makes it sound like being successful is a crime that a successful person should be punished (but only if they are white, straight and male though, right)... :lol:
 
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Rouz

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Truth of the matter is, the LGBTI community struggles to make up 3% of the demographic in Australia... Why should I bend over backwards... for a community that makes up such a small minority...
Replace LGBTI with Aboriginal and you'll see how inappropriate that "argument" is.

I certainly should not have [same sex marriage] imposed on my [sic] by shame and guilt in the event where I have a disapproval over it
That's the point! Why do you disapprove? Because a book full of historical and societal nonsense, which was once-upon-a-time useful but has now served its purpose, says so? If that's not your reason, I am genuinely interested in knowing it.
By the way at this time I am not interested in discussing religion as a whole.

Now, if I was [sic] bigoted, I would emphasize blanket disapproval over the notions of same sex marriage...
You literally just said you disapproved of it!

I love the monopoly reference too, makes it sound like being successful is a crime that a successful person should be punished
Just to clarify I am talking about the cultural monopoly of Christians. In accordance with what I said before, Christianity, or any other religion which has its followers tie themselves down to a book with questionable morals by today's standards, has no place in modern society and especially not in the legal system.

Edit: I think my stance on religion is clear but I want to emphasise that I don't wish to offend anybody. If you feel that I may have done so, please inform me.
 
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wannaspoon

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Replace LGBTI with Aboriginal and you'll see how inappropriate that "argument" is.


That's the point! Why do you disapprove? Because a book full of historical and societal nonsense, which was once-upon-a-time useful but has now served its purpose, says so? If that's not your reason, I am genuinely interested in knowing it.
By the way at this time I am not interested in discussing religion as a whole.


You literally just said you disapproved of it!


Just to clarify I am talking about the cultural monopoly of Christians. In accordance with what I said before, Christianity, or any other religion which has its followers tie themselves down to a book with questionable morals by today's standards, has no place in modern society and especially not in the legal system.

Edit: I think my stance on religion is clear but I want to emphasise that I don't wish to offend anybody. So if you feel like that's the case with anything I've said please inform me and I will apologise, should it be the right thing to do.
I don't like religion, so you should not worship it... Really? A tad Culturally Marxist, would you not say?

**sigh** So now you're trying to label me as racist... Okay, let me explain it to you through an analogue... The role of a government are NOT! to move the goal posts, the goal of government is to remove the landmines from a playing field so that a fair game can be played... My argument would be no different (and not racist) if I were to use a different label to that argument... There is nothing institutional for the LGBTI community (other than the prohibition of same sex marriage, hence why I agree with passing laws enabling and not imposing same sex marriage) which is actually stopping those who identify as LGBTI from living normal, productive and happy lives...

I like how you say that there is some form of nefarious Christian "Cultural Monopoly..." Yes, the Holy Inquisition is still in play, Ecclesiastical Courts still operate and there is a strict adherence to religious Christian laws that the government enforces... :lol:
 
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Rouz

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I don't like religion, so you should not worship it...
Did not say that.

So now you're trying to label me as racist
Was not doing that.

the goal of government is to remove the landmines from a playing field so that a fair game can be played
Yes. Discrimination is a landmine.

I like how you say that there is some form of nefarious Christian "Cultural Monopoly... the Holy Inquisition... Ecclesiastical Courts... strict adherence to religious Christian laws
Nah... Normal Christianity is bad enough. I'd argue that discriminating against gays in the 21st century is the equivalent of locking them up in the 20th.

Gays are still being reprimanded, they are still being scorned and have their rights denied to them by a sizeable number of religious people. Name one other class of people that has the same attitude toward gays.
 
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wannaspoon

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Did not say that.

Was not doing that.

Yes. Discrimination is a landmine.

Nah... Normal Christianity is bad enough. I'd argue that discriminating against gays in the 21st century is the equivalent of locking them up in the 20th.

Gays are still being reprimanded, they are still being scorned and have their rights denied to them by a sizeable number of religious people. Name one other class of people that has the same attitude toward gays.
 

Rouz

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Ooh look at the score in that gif, man. There's a reason the Jaguars supporter is baffled.

In all seriousness, I value your input. We clearly have different points of view and you do have some arguments that are worth listening to.
 
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