Does God exist? (7 Viewers)

[leehuan]

Can I say something.

I isolate groups such as ISIS from the Islam religion. I believe they are using religion as an excuse to murder.

 

[hawkrider]

I haven't read anything in this thread tbh but just going to say it's plain obvious "god" doesn't exist. If you were born anywhere else you'd be defending the existence of some other god than the one you already are. You might have never even heard of the god you believe in now. That's because gods are man-made. That's why there are thousands of religions, many with their own religious texts and things they use to "prove" the existence of their god. What makes your god the right one?

With regards to the bolded - if gods were simply idols created by man, then yes, I would agree. But let me ask you: could the same be said for the conception of the generic monotheistic God that is uncreated which Christianity, Islam and Judaism espouse as well?

Otherwise, porcupinetree has most aptly posted those videos to explain what the genetic fallacy is - which you have just committed. You seem to presuppose that the only reason people hold to the doctrines they cling to is because their parents 'indoctrinated' them. That is not true. Sure, many religious believers accept belief in God for this vain reason. But if you maintain the proposition that Christians teach their children Christianity disproves Christianity, then by your line of thought, the fact that atheists teach their children atheism disproves atheism. Which it doesn’t by the way, but this shows the ultimate self-destruction of your argument. It’s self-defeating. It’s like arguing “You’re only an atheist because you were raised in an atheist home."

Nevertheless, as long as one religious person believes what they believe through rational thought, belief in God would be reasonable, and it is as it can be put under scrutiny. You ask "what makes your god the right one?" For me, looking objectively at the criteria for the Christian faith helps as such because I argue that Christianity is only worldview by which we can test the authenticity of the faith. Thus, I came to accept that Christian teaching was indeed the Truth because of overwhelmingly strong historical evidence for the credibility of Jesus' life, His teachings, His miracles, His death and resurrection. Having said that, I became a born again Christian because God came down, revealed Himself to me, and rescued me while I was still in my sin (and I can understand if this idea of religious experience is foreign to grasp as I get the impression that you're an atheist, so I wouldn't be surprised if you easily dismiss this).

I'm happy to explain this stuff to you via PM if you're confused, but that's if you're willing to cast aside potentially negative preconceived notions about religion and Christianity which you seem to uphold from your post.

the reason there is "no end" to the argument of god's existence is BECAUSE he doesn't exist. There is no solid proof. But plenty of things that go against his existence.

To be honest, it really depends what constitutes 'proof' for you. If by prove, you mean mathematical 100% certainty, then obviously we can't. However, through a cumulative case which makes the existence of God very plausible, that is definitely possible, and there are clues/pointers in nature and through special revelation. But once again, this only comes down to your willingness to cast aside your preconceptions about there being no God at all and investigate the arguments and evidence for yourself, objectively. Because really, the absence of evidence - in and of itself a moot point rooted in a naturalistic worldview - doesn’t do anything to prove that God does not exist.

And since you take the hardline atheist position that there is no God, what justification do you offer that there is no God? I would like to see your reasons that lead to the conclusion you hold to, because atheists just have as much burden of proof as the theist does.

But of course when you mention these things, people start making up their own ideas and interpretations. For example, from memory, in the bible god creates night and day. We all know night and day needs the sun to occur. But days later, god creates the sun and moon. Not possible. We would be in complete darkness without the sun. But there will be christians saying things like, "oh, the night and day is metaphorical!" or something like that. They will look for any way to change the meaning of the words to try and make it make sense. Which is just another reason why I don't believe in god or any gods: people have to constantly change the meaning of the text in order to make it make sense with modern knowledge.

We do acknowledge that some Christians have misinterpreted Genesis 1 and indeed, the Bible as a whole. That is why we have something called hermeneutics - which is the exegesis of scripture, or more broadly, methodology of text interpretation especially the interpretation of religious texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts to thereby understand the implicit and explicit meaning behind them. This is done so through bible/theological college. You can google the term if you're curious.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Basically you cannot claim that Islam is a religion of peace; when a good slice of its adherents are anything but. Now you can claim that is a misinterpretation and all that. But where is your basis. They seem themselves as Islamic groups, albeit terrorists who are doing the will of Allah.

It is still an issue that remains unresolved. And like I said these are just the extreme cases that have names; lets not get started on Sharia law and other topics.

That's just childish... Look at the original examples of the prophet and his companions during the context in which they partook in. I can still claim that Islam is peaceful. All the Christian extremist groups see their group the same way... Are you just choosing to ignore these because you're Christian ? Are you also ignoring the "violent" verses in the bible ?

I would ask you to speak about shariah law but again you're forcing me off topic

 

[Drsoccerball]

And if such an all-powerful being refuses to illustrate its power, or even its existence, how do I begin to believe in it?

I believe .... I believe .... I believe .... I believe .... I believe .... I believe .... ah - there it is ...... now give me my 72 virgins.

Firstly I explained the concept of 72 virgins before I think you're jsut taking the piss now. By 72 virgins it's referring to being able to get anything you wish or desire in heaven. You could get 73 virgins if you wanted or none it's an old expression.

What do you mean look around you look at the magnificence of the universe there are countless signs pointing towards his existence.

 

[dan964]

That's just childish... Look at the original examples of the prophet and his companions during the context in which they partook in. I can still claim that Islam is peaceful. All the Christian extremist groups see their group the same way... Are you just choosing to ignore these because you're Christian ? Are you also ignoring the "violent" verses in the bible ?

I would ask you to speak about shariah law but again you're forcing me off topic

No that is a childish response would be better to say. And firstly, just because I question when a good slice of its adherents more than any other religion/ideaology is made up from extremists. And this was me diluting the figures. Understandably if you are offended, it is expected this kind of response to use labels and such.


Care to give an example of the underlined? (I will comment upfront and say most of around the time of Joshua was particular instructions given to Israel to wipe out the nations then, and parts of the Old Testament have been fulfilled. Secondly most of the Old Testament is filtered through the New Testament and Jesus in any Christian understanding of it; which ironically filters out of the lot of things we would oppose. I don't deny there is material that is violent, same goes for the Quran, but as you insist that there is a context, I can make the same claim.)

You took the bait when you mentioned Christian extremist groups: the main two I can name; are KKK and the one in the CAR, there are others but they aren't as significant as the 13.75% (which is actually closer to 20-25% up to 50+%**) in Islam.

**which I don't think is actually the case. Although Ben Shapiro does.

But what you find is that many use the name of Islam (should I make a list of the countries?). The issue is the numbers. Islam, is the religion, most claim to justify their actions. Most are actually Muslims, albeit not moderates; some but these are few, aren't.

Finally may I remind you that when I started posted more objective data you still complained. You might need to work on that.
Why do you think I started with Mohammed examples? But note my issue is not necessarily with Islam persay; but what do its adherents hold.
I gave you a generous estimate but maybe I should have been a bit more realistic with the facts.

Also you cannot complain if you are allowed to go to Islamic opinion; and I am expected to shut up on a Christian opinion. Call me misguided, ok?
And do not pull the "Islamophobia" card... don't go there. You cannot call any site that does not praise the glories of Mohammed and his religion, such.

at least I didn't use this site...
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
(this site does give counts of "Islamic" related attacks though, which is probably the only thing useful about it).


On Sharia; many countries where Islam is the national religion and Sharia-law; apostates (especially to Christianity) are killed/prosecuted. Of course I have issues with it; less than most.

 

[dan964]

Firstly I explained the concept of 72 virgins before I think you're jsut taking the piss now. By 72 virgins it's referring to being able to get anything you wish or desire in heaven. You could get 73 virgins if you wanted or none it's an old expression.

What do you mean look around you look at the magnificence of the universe there are countless signs pointing towards his existence.

I would say an odd expression. But why is the phrase 72 virgins then?

 

[Drsoccerball]

No that is a childish response would be better to say. And firstly, just because I question when a good slice of its adherents more than any other religion/ideaology is made up from extremists. And this was me diluting the figures. Understandably if you are offended, it is expected this kind of response.

Question them idc but when you question Islam based on their non-Islamic attitude then I have a problem. (Even If Everyone did it you still can't blame the religion as that's not what it teaches)

Care to give an example of the underlined? (I will comment upfront and say most of around the time of Joshua was particular instructions given to Israel to wipe out the nations then, and parts of the Old Testament have been fulfilled. Secondly most of the Old Testament is filtered through the New Testament and Jesus in any Christian understanding of it; which ironically filters out of the lot of things we would oppose. I don't deny there is material that is violent, same goes for the Quran, but as you insist that there is a context, I can make the same claim.)

Well I won't point them out for a few reasons one is that this is the "Does god exist" thread not the "Islam vs Christianity 'violent' verses thread" which you have turned it into. The other reason is I know that even though the bible does make these claims that Christianity does not encourage violence and I do not try attacking Christianity at every opportunity I have.

You took the bait when you mentioned Christian extremist groups: the main two I can name; are KKK and the one in the CAR, there are others but they aren't as significant as the 13.75% (which is actually closer to 20-25% up to 50+%) in Islam.

But what you find is that many use the name of Islam (should I make a list of the countries?). The issue is the numbers. Islam, is the religion, most claim to justify their actions. Most are actually Muslims, albeit not moderates; some but these are few, aren't.

I can say the same about Christianity? But of course if you take things out of context anything can seem violent.

Why do you think I started with Mohammed examples? But note my issue is not necessarily with Islam persay; but what do its adherents hold.
I gave you a generous estimate but maybe I should have been a bit more realistic with the facts.

Examples quoted out of context that were straight from answering islam yeah.

Also you cannot complain if you are allowed to go to Islamic opinion; and I am expected to shut up on a Christian opinion. Call me misguided, ok?

There's a big difference in searching for information about Islam from an Islamic source and from a Christian source. How can you know if you're right or wrong if you only listen to opinions supporting your own.

And do not pull the "Islamophobia" card... don't go there. You cannot call any site that does not praise the glories of Mohammed and his religion, such.

Never planned too. However, there's a difference with presenting information objectively(which you think these site are doing but the sites name is answering Islam which is clearly a non objective site) and presenting it normally.

at least I didn't use this site...
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
(this site does give counts of "Islamic" related attacks though, which is probably the only thing useful about it).

Muslims killing other Muslims very Islamic I must say. (sarcasm)
The fact that you even know that site exists says something.

On Sharia; many countries where Islam is the national religion; apostates (especially to Christianity) are killed/prosecuted.

I literally explained this a few mins ago...

 

[Drsoccerball]

I would say an odd expression. But why is the phrase 72 virgins then?

I use things like that when I mean I lot. "yeah bro there was like 50 something." But I meant a countless amount.

 

[dan964]

If you want the sources for the data...
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-executive-summary/

For sharia law: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law#Crime_and_punishment (Wikipedia lel)
I will comment:
"Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable." Many respondents reject the stricter laws and punishments for which sharia is often, fairly or unfairly, known in the West.
And I get that...

source for above: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

====

This text is of interest: Life of Mohammed... which is where most of the quotes (non-Quran quotes) seem to be sourced from...
https://ia801702.us.archive.org/25/...dGuillaume/The_Life_Of_Mohammed_Guillaume.pdf




One thing I picked up from the data:
Thought it is odd how Muslims claim that there is only one interpretation.

 

[dan964]

“A married man had committed adultery with a married woman and they (Jewish Rabbis) said: ‘Send them to Muhammad and ask him what the law about them is and leave the penalty to him…Muhammad b. Talha b. Yazid b. Rukana from Ismail b. Ibrahim from Ibn Abbas told me that the apostle ordered them to be stoned, and they were stoned at the door of his mosque. And when the Jew felt the first stone he crouched over the woman to protect her from the stones until both of them were killed.” - Life of Mohammed pp.266-267

“Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches… There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900… Then the apostle sent Sa’d b. Zayd al-Ansari brother of b. Abdu’l-Ahhal with some of the captive women of B. Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." - Life of Mohammed pp. 464

“Another was Abdullah b. Khatal...he had become Muslim had two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed with him. Another was al-Huwayrith b. Nuqaydh b. Wahb b. Abd b. Qusayy, one of those who used to insult him in Mecca.”

"Abu Afak was one of B. Amr b. Auf of the B. Ubayda clan. He showed his disaffection when the apostle killed al-Harith b. Suwayd b. Samit… The apostle said, ‘Who will deal with this rascal for me?’ whereupon Salim b. Umayr, brother of B. Amr b. Auf one of the ‘weepers’, went forth and killed him…When Abu Afak had been killed she (Asma b. Marwan) displayed disaffection" pp. 675 LOM

" When the apostle heard what she had said he said, ‘Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?’ ‘Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he said, ‘You have helped God and His apostle, O ‘Umayr!’ When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, ‘Two goats won’t butt their heads about her,’ so Umayr went back to his people.” pp. 676 LOM

Do you need more?

 

[dan964]

I use things like that when I mean I lot. "yeah bro there was like 50 something." But I meant a countless amount.

but why virgins?

 

[dan964]

Would you like to quote the next few words? "except for Islamic law." Nice try but no. Islamic law allows others to practice faith freely.

Nice try, I don't think that is true for a lot of "Islamic" countries. I can get a list if you want. "Freely" is a word I would dispute.

 

[dan964]

Question them idc but when you question Islam based on their non-Islamic attitude then I have a problem. (Even If Everyone did it you still can't blame the religion as that's not what it teaches)

I question Islam based on my non-Islamic beliefs, do you have an issue with that? Do you take problem with me being non-Muslim?
Or when did atheists not question Islam because they are non-theists?

To answer the bracketed statement...
It is kind of irrelevant what the religion teaches; if they actually do something else. It is called hypocrisy. But yes I will look at Mohammed being a "perfect" Muslim and I'm afraid I am still not swayed.

Well I won't point them out for a few reasons one is that this is the "Does god exist" thread not the "Islam vs Christianity 'violent' verses thread" which you have turned it into. The other reason is I know that even though the bible does make these claims that Christianity does not encourage violence and I do not try attacking Christianity at every opportunity I have.

I am sorry but you didn't address them, but just said well there is violent material in the Bible, so that somehow justifies or dismisses the violent material in the Quran that is being used by extremists. (Please note: There is a reason why I added that sidenote, you don't have to agree with it, so you don't have to go to the violent verses in Christianity). You need to add something similar on the violent verses in the Quran, without being dismissive.

So I asked for an example? and then you refuse? It is odd... very odd...

Thirdly, note that although I am speaking from a Christian POV, I have recently rarely made any reference to its specifics or certainly any comparison. So you note I avoid comparisons between religions, and I do note that some have been made here and on other threads. Please don't jump to conclusions. You won't ever get well "Jesus taught better morals than Mohammed" arguments here, because they are pointless. My aim is to find a bit more about Islam, in terms of what are Islam beliefs, what is the Christian critique of such. Yes, a bit of why I disagree with Islam is thrown in there (without reference to my own belief specifically, although it does operate).

I can say the same about Christianity? But of course if you take things out of context anything can seem violent.

I am well aware of that, what do you think most social progressives think of Christianity? Not very highly. Recall Obama's speech when he laboured the point about the Crusades. I am well aware that people misuse the name of any ideology/name. But the point is why? Why is Islamic terrorism more prominent? Why are the numbers higher for those who use Islam as opposed to other faiths, in this current stage?

It remarks me, whenever Islam is raised, as a potential issue to be discussed within the framework of political situation in the Middle East, there is always this cop-out response well Christians aren't much better. (Which presumes way too much, etc.). Islam needs to be addressed without comparison to Christianity. Likewise for a critique of Christianity.

Examples quoted out of context that were straight from answering islam yeah.

Here is how your argument goes...
1. Sites critiques Islam
2. Site is hate-filled etc.
3. Therefore from (1), (2) all they say is out of context and lies. I don't trace your logic.

You'd be better making the claim that they misunderstand Islam, and I will make the same that you misunderstand my position too. And then we part ways. I don't agree with everything they put up anyway.


To follow up I have posted some quotes for LOM directly. Let the reader decide if they are out of context or not.
If you really want me to go to the effort

There's a big difference in searching for information about Islam from an Islamic source and from a Christian source. How can you know if you're right or wrong if you only listen to opinions supporting your own.

Never planned too. However, there's a difference with presenting information objectively(which you think these site are doing but the sites name is answering Islam which is clearly a non objective site) and presenting it normally.

Objective?

I look at both. I try to find secular sources actually, but they don't seem to comment on it, even they aren't neutral. . (2) Why do you think I ask a lot of questions? Because I kind of want to see your response?

You mean answeringChristianity which is also the site which they respond to as well, and there are many like that. The problem exists on both sides. Objectively? Very few sites will have objective information on Islam. Even Wikipedia is always disputed. It is a like a hot rock pool of lava.

They do exactly what you are doing, responds to the claims that the other religion makes. You have previously made the claim that Mohammed is in the Bible, they respond to that. Most people don't consider that, because they hold strong enough to their beliefs to reject Islam without need for these supposed proof-texting. Etc.

I use that site to see what other Christians, more familiar with Islam than I, what issues they take with Islam, and see if you can resolve, respond to them. Is there a problem with that? It is the knee-jerk reaction you should avoid.
How they respond to Muslim allegations, is in the same manner, that you respond to Christian allegations/claims.

So please understand why I use that site first, before jumping to conclusions. I don't use it to get an Islamic opinion obviously. (Otherwise I wouldn't be asking you questions)

Muslims killing other Muslims very Islamic I must say. (sarcasm)

Did you even read what you just wrote? Isn't a Muslim = someone who holds to Islam?

The fact that you even know that site exists says something.

I know it exists because of Google. You started making weird claims such as Mohammed being in the Bible, and the only site that seemed to respond to it was that one. Most people dismiss Islam and don't care to engage with it that much.

I literally explained this a few mins ago...

I don't think your explanation justifies that. Yes, it is happened in the past, on the count of many ideologies. It does present a significant challenge to religious freedom and for you, an Islamic moderate who holds that there is no "compulsion in religion" when there are counter-examples in predominantly Muslim countries.

 

[dan964]

Can I say something.

I isolate groups such as ISIS from the Islam religion. I believe they are using religion as an excuse to murder.

I don't disagree. (Its odd they have it in the name, but then again the church of Scientology isn't really a church, and the church of Jesus Christ of the LDS disagrees with most of what Jesus taught* unless you are a Mormon). But there are more groups that need to be passed on, and IS is only just one of them and that is what needs to happen. The Islamic community in the West needs to be vocal not just against IS, but the numerous other cases of those who use or misuse the name of Islam each day.

 

[braintic]

What do you mean look around you look at the magnificence of the universe there are countless signs pointing towards his existence.

How do you know that what you see is not evidence for the existence of the FSM?
(Do your best to avoid circular reasoning this time.)

 

[Drsoccerball]

Arguments for Divine Existence and Unity and how to acquire a firm conviction of Divine Unity

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.

First station

Consider the following verses:

God sets forth parables for humanity in order that they may bear (them) in mind and take lessons (through them). (14:25)

Such parables do We set forth for humanity so that they may reflect.

(59:21)

ONCE TWO PEOPLE WASHED THEMSELVES IN A POOL AND FELL INTO A trance-like state. Upon awakening, they found themselves in a land of perfect order and harmony. They looked around in amazement:

It appeared to them as a vast world, a well-ordered state, a splendid city. If it was looked at from still another point of view, it was a palace that was in itself a magnificent world. They travelled and saw its creatures speaking a language they did not know. However, their gestures indicated that they were doing important work and carrying out significant duties.

One of them said: “This world must have an administrator, this well-ordered state a master, this splendid city an owner, and this skilfully made palace a master builder. We must try to know him, for he brought us here. If we do not, who will help us? What can we expect from those impotent creatures whose language we do not know and who ignore us? Moreover, one who has made a huge world in the form of a state, a city, or a palace and filled it with wonderful things, embellished it with every adornment, and decorated it with instructive miracles wants something from us and those who come here. We must know him and learn what he wants.”

The other person objected: “There is no such being to govern this world by himself,” to which his friend replied: “If we do not recognize him and remain indifferent, we gain nothing and might face some harm. But if we try to recognize him, there is little hardship and the chance of great benefit. So how can we remain indifferent?” The other man insisted: “I find all my ease and enjoyment in not thinking of him. Besides, these things do not concern me. They happened by chance or by themselves.” His smart friend replied: “Such obstinacy will get us and many others in trouble. Sometimes a state is ruined because of one ill-mannered person.”

The other person turned and said: “Either prove that what you say is true or leave me alone.” At that, his friend said:“Since your obstinacy borders on insanity and will cause us to suffer a great calamity, I will show you twelve proofs that this palace-like world, this city-like state, has one master builder who administers it and has no deficiency. He is invisible to us, but must see us and everything and also hear all voices. All his works seem miraculous. All these creatures whom we see but whose languages we do not understand must be his officials [working in his name].

Twelve proofs

FIRST PROOF:Look around. A hidden hand is working in everything, for some-thing without strength is bearing loads weighing thousands of pounds. (Referring to seeds which bear trees)
101 Something without consciousness is doing much intelligent and purposive work.102 (102 This refers to delicate plants like grapevines, which cannot rise by themselves or bear the weight of fruits, and so throw their delicate arms around other plants or trees and wind themselves around and load themselves onto them.)

As they therefore cannot be working on their own, a powerful, hidden one is caus-ing them to work. If everything were happening on its own, all the work being done in this place must itself be a miracle, and everything a miracle-working marvel.

SECOND PROOF: Look at the adornments of these plains, fields, and resi-dences. Each are marks pointing to that hidden one. Like a seal or stamp, each gives news of him. Look at what he produces from a few grams of cotton.103 (103 For example, an atom-sized poppy seed, an apricot stone that weighs a few grams, or a melon seed each produce from Mercy’s treasury woven leaves more beautiful than broad-cloth, flowers whiter or yellower than linen, fruits sweeter than sugar, and finer and more delicious than jams, and offer them to us.)

See how many rolls of cloth, linen, and flowered material have come out of it; how much sweet food and other delights are being made. If thousands of people clothed themselves from these or ate of those, there would still be enough.

Again, look. He has taken a handful of iron, soil, water, coal, copper, silver, and gold and made some living creatures.104(104 This refers to the creation of animal bodies from elements and living creatures from sperm.)

Look and see. These sorts of work are particular to one that holds this land together with all its parts under his mirac-ulous power and all-submissive to his will.

[Another modern discovery that links to this proof watch the whole thing:

THIRD PROOF: Look at these priceless, moving works of art.105(105 This refers to animals and human beings. Since an animal is a tiny index of the world, and humanity is a miniature of the universe, whatever is in the universe has a sample that is contained within each human being.)

Each has been fashioned as a miniature specimen of this huge palace. Whatever is in the palace is found in these tiny moving machines. Who but the builder of this amazing palace could include all of it in a tiny machine? Could chance or some-thing purposeless have intervened in this box-sized machine that contains a whole world? However many artistically fashioned machines you see, each is like a seal of that hidden one, like a herald or a proclamation. In their language of being, they announce: “We are the works of art of one who can make this entire world as easily as he made us.”

FOURTH PROOF: I will show you something even stranger. Look. All things in this land are changing. Each lifeless body and unfeeling “bone” has started to move toward certain purposes, as if each were ruling the others. Look at this machine beside us.106(106 This refers to fruit-bearing trees. As if bearing on their slender branches hundreds of looms and factories, they weave wonderful, richly adorned leaves, blossoms and fruits, and then cook these fruits and offer them to us. Such majestic trees like pines and cedars have set up their workbenches on hard, dry rock to work.)

It is as though it were issuing commands and all the materials necessary for its adornment and functioning were running to it from distant places. Look over there. That seemingly lifeless body is as though beckoning, for it makes the biggest bodies serve it and work for it.107(107 This “body” signifies grains, seeds, and the eggs of flies. A fly leaves its eggs on an elm tree’s leaves. Suddenly, the huge tree turns its leaves into a mother’s womb, a cradle, a store full of honey-like food, as if it, although not fruit-bearing, produces animate fruit.)

You may compare the rest with these.

Everything seems to have subjugated to itself all creatures in the world. If you do not accept the hidden one’s existence, you must attribute all his skills, arts, and perfections to the stones, soil, animals, and creatures resembling people to the things themselves. In place of one miracle-working being, millions of mir-acle-workers like him have to exist, both opposed to and similar to each other at the same time, and one within the other, without causing any confusion and spoiling the order. But we know that when two rulers intervene in an affair, the result is confusion. When a village has two headmen, a town two governors, or a country two kings, chaos arises. Given this, what would happen if there were an infinite number of absolute rulers in the same place and at the same time?

FIFTH PROOF : Look carefully at the palace’s ornaments and the city’s adornments. See this land’s orderliness and reflect on this world’s artistry. If the pen of a hidden one with infinite miracles and skills is not working, or if all these ornaments are attributed to unconscious causes, blind chance and deaf nature, everything here would have to be a miracle-working decorator and a wonderful inscriber able to write 1,000 books in a letter, and to display infinite-ly different forms of artistry in a single ornament.

Look at the inscriptions on these stones.108(108 This refers to humanity, the fruit of the Tree of Creation, and to the fruit that bears the program of its tree and its index. Whatever the Pen of Divine Power has inscribed in the great Book of the Universe has been compressed in our creation. Whatever the Pen of Divine Destiny has written in a huge tree has been included in its fingernail-sized fruit.)

Each contains the inscriptions of the whole palace, the laws for the city’s order, and the programs for organiz-ing the state. Given this, making all these inscriptions is as wonderful as mak-ing the state. So each inscription and instance of art is a proclamation of that hidden one and one of his seals. A letter indicates its writer, and an artistic inscription makes its inscriber known. Thus how can an inscriber, a designer, or a decorator, who inscribes a huge book in a single letter and displays 1,000 orna-ments in a single one, not be known through his inscriptions and ornaments?

SIXTH PROOF: Come onto this vast plain.109 (109 This signifies Earth’s face in spring and summer, when innumerable individuals of count-less species are brought into existence and “written” on Earth. They are recruited and may undergo changes without flaw and with perfect orderliness. Thousands of tables of the Most Merciful One are laid out and then removed and replaced with fresh ones. All trees are like bearers of trays, and all gardens are like cauldrons.)

We will climb to the top of that huge mountain to see the surrounding area. We use these binoculars, for curious things are happening in this land. Every hour things are happening that we never imagined.

Look! These mountains, plains, and towns are suddenly changing so that millions of new things can replace them with perfect orderliness, one within and after the other. The most curious transformations are occurring. It is as though innumerable kinds of cloths are being woven inside and among others. Familiar flowery things are being replaced in an orderly fashion with others of similar nature but different form. Everything is happening as if each plain and mountain is a page upon which infinite different books are being written with-out flaw or defect. It is inconceivable that these things, which display infinite art, skill, and exactness, come about on their own. Rather, they show the artist who engenders them. The one who does all these things displays such miracles, for nothing is difficult for him. It is as easy for him to write 1,000 books as to write one book.

Look around you. He puts everything in its proper place with such wisdom, pours his favor so generously on the needy and deserving, draws back and opens general veils and doors so bountifully that all are satisfied, and lays out such munificent tables that a feast of bounties is given to all people and ani-mals of this land. Indeed, the bounties are particular and suitable for each group and individual. How can all of this be attributed to chance, be purposeless or vain, or have many hands behind it? The only reasonable explanation is that their maker is powerful over everything, and that everything is subjugated to him. So, my friend, what pretext can you find to persist in your denial?

SEVENTH PROOF: Let’s turn to the mutual interrelations of this amazing palace-like world’s parts. Universal things are being done and general revolu-tions are taking place with such perfect orderliness that all rocks, soil, and trees in this palace obey this world’s general rules as if each were free to do whatever it wills. Things that are most distant come to each other’s aid. Look at that strange caravan coming from the unseen on mounts resembling trees, plants, and mountains.110(110 “Caravans” of plants and trees bearing the sustenance of all animals.)

Each member is carrying trays of food on its head and bring-ing it to the animals waiting on this side. Look at the mighty electric lamp in that dome.111 (111 An allusion to the sun.)

It not only provides light, but also cooks their food so well that the food to be cooked is attached to a string by an unseen hand and held out and offered.112 (112 The string and its attached food denote a tree’s slender branches and the delicious fruits thereon.)

See these impotent, weak, defenseless little animals. Over their heads are small, spring-like “pumps” full of delicate sustenance.113(113 The breasts of mothers.)

They only have to press their mouths against these pumps to be fed.

In short, all things in this world, as if positioned face-to-face, help each other. As though seeing each other, they cooperate with each other. To perfect each other’s work, they support each other and work together. Their ways of cooperation cannot be counted. All of this proves that everything is subjugat-ed to the builder of that wonderful palace, the real owner of this world. Everything works on his behalf, like a soldier carrying out his commands. Everything takes place by his power, moves by his command, and is arranged through his wisdom. Everything helps the others by his munificence, and every-thing is made to hasten to the aid of others through his compassion. O my friend, can you object to this?

EIGHTH PROOF: Come, O my friend who supposes yourself to be intelli-gent, as does my own selfhood. You do not want to recognize this magnificent palace’s owner although everything points to him, shows him, and testifies to him. How can you deny such testimony? Given this, you have to deny the palace as well and say: “There is no world, no state.” Deny your own existence, too, and disappear, or else come to your senses and listen to me.

In the palace are uniform elements and minerals that encompass the whole land.114 (114 Elements and minerals denote the elements of air, water, light, and soil, which perform numerous systematic duties: By Divine permission, they hasten to help all needy beings, enter everywhere by Divine command and provide help, convey the necessities of life, and “suckle” living creatures. They also function as the source, origin, and cradle for the weaving and decoration of Divine artifacts.)

Everything is made from them. This means that whoever owns them owns everything made from them, for whoever owns the field owns its crops, and whoever owns the sea owns its contents. These textiles and decorat-ed woven clothes are made from a single substance. Obviously, the one who creates the substance both prepares it and makes it into yarn, for such a work does not allow the participation of others. Therefore, all of the things skillful-ly woven out of it are particular to him.

All types of such woven things are found throughout the land. They are being made all together, one inside or among others, in the same way and at the same instant. They can be the work only of one person who does everything with one command. Otherwise such correspondence and conformity as regards time, fashion, and quality would be impossible. So, each skillfully made thing is proclaims that hidden one and points to him. It is as if each kind of flowered cloth, skillfully made machine, and delicious morsel is a stamp, a seal, a sign of that miracle-working one.

It is also as if each is saying in the language of its being: “Whoever owns me as a work of art also owns the boxes and shops in which I am found.” Each decoration says: “Whoever embroidered me also wove the roll of cloth in which I am located.” Each delicious morsel says: “Whoever cooked me also has the cooking pot in which I am located.” Each machine says: “Whoever made me also makes all those like me that are found throughout the land. The one who raises us everywhere is also the same. As this same person owns the land and this palace, he also must own us.” This is because the real owner of, say a car-tridge-belt or a button belonging to the state, has to own the factories in which they are made. If someone ignorantly claims ownership of it, it will be taken away. Such people will be punished for pretending to own the state’s property.

In short, if each element has permeated through every other and encom-passes the whole, their owner only can be the one who owns all the land. Since the instances of art found everywhere resemble each other and display the same stamp, whatever has spread throughout the land is evidently the work of a sin-gle person’s art. And, that one rules over everything. Thus there is a sign of oneness, a stamp of unity in this magnificent palace-like land. Some things are uniform, unique, and of the same nature, yet all-encompassing. Other things, though various and abundant, display a unity of grouping since they resemble each other and are found everywhere. Such unity declares the one of unity. That means that this land’s builder, host, and owner must be one and the same.

Look attentively. See how a thickish string has appeared from behind the veil of the Unseen.115(115 The “thick string” is a fruit-bearing tree, the strings are its branches, and the diamond decorations, favors, and gifts are the various flowers and fruits hung thereon.)

See how thousands of strings hang down from it. See their tips, to which have been attached diamonds, decorations, favors, and gifts. There is a gift particular to everyone. Can you be so foolish as not to recognize and thank the one who offers such wonderful favors and gifts from behind the veil of the Unseen? If you do not recognize him, you must argue: “The strings themselves make and offer these diamonds and other gifts.” In that case, you must attribute to each string the status and function of a king [who has a mirac-ulous power and knowledge to do whatever he wishes]. And all this, while before our very eyes an unseen hand is making the strings and attaching gifts to them!

Given the latter fact, everything in this palace points to that miracle-working one rather than to itself. If you do not recognize him, by denying what is occurring in the palace, you show a determined ignorance of a kind to which a truly human being must not sink.

NINTH PROOF: Come, O friend. You neither recognize nor want to recog-nize the palace’s owner because you deem his existence improbable. You deny because you cannot grasp his wonderful art and manner of acting. But how can all of these exquisite things, this wonderful existence, be explained without rec-ognizing him? If we recognize him, all this palace and its abundant contents are as easy to understand as a single thing in it.

If we do not recognize him and if he did not exist, one thing would be as hard to explain as the whole palace, for everything is as skillfully made as the palace. Things would not be so abundant and economical. No one could have any of these things that we see. Look at the jar of jam attached to that string.116 (116 The jar of jam denotes Mercy’s gifts (melons, watermelons, pomegranates, and coconuts like tins of milk), each of which is a conserve of Divine Power.)

If it had not been miraculously made in his hidden kitchen, we could not have bought it at any price. But now we buy it for a few cents.

Every kind of persistent difficulty and impossibility follows from not rec-ognizing him. A tree is given life from one root, through one law, and in one center. Therefore, forming thousands of fruits is as easy as forming one fruit. If this depended on different, particular centers and roots and on separate, partic-ular laws, each fruit would have been as hard to form as the tree. If an army’s equipment is produced in one factory, through one law, and in one center, it is done as easily as equipping one soldier. But if each soldier’s equipment is pro-cured from many places, then equipping one soldier would require as many fac-tories as needed for the whole army.

This is also true in this well-organized palace, splendid city, progressive state, and magnificent world. If the invention of all these things is attributed to one being, it is easy to account for their infinite abundance, availability, and munificence. Otherwise everything would be so costly and hard that the whole world would not be enough to buy a single thing.

TENTH PROOF: My friend, we have been here for 15 days.117(117 An allusion to the age of 15, the age of responsibility.)

If we still do not know and recognize this world’s rules, we deserve punishment. We have no excuses, because for 15 days we have not been interfered with, as though given respite. But neither have we been left to ourselves. We cannot wander about and cause disorder among creatures so delicate, well-balanced, subtle, skillfully made, and instructive as these. The majestic lord’s punishment must be severe.

How majestic and powerful he must be to have arranged this huge world like a palace and turn it as though a light wheel. He administers this vast coun-try like a house, missing nothing. Like filling a container and then emptying it, he continuously fills this palace, this city, this land with perfect orderliness and then empties it with perfect wisdom. Also, like setting up a table and then removing it, he lays out throughout the land, as though with an unseen hand, diverse tables with a great variety of foods one after the other, and then clears them away to bring new ones.118

(118 The tables denote Earth’s face in summer, during which hundreds of the Most Merciful One’s tables are prepared fresh and different in the kitchens of mercy, and then are laid down and removed continuously. Every garden is a cooking pot, and every tree is a tray-bearer.)

Seeing this and using your reason, you will understand that an infinite munificence is inherent in that awesome majesty.

Just as all these things testify to that unseen being’s unity and sovereignty, so these revolutions and changes occurring one after the other bear witness to his permanence. How so? For the causes of things disappear along with them, whereas the things we attribute to causes are repeated after them. So nothing can be attributed to causes; everything takes place as the work of an undying one. For example, sparkling bubbles on a river’s surface come and go, but new ones coming after them also sparkle. Therefore, what makes them sparkle is something constant standing high above the river and having permanent light. In the same way, the quick changes in this world and the things that replace the disappearing ones, assuming the same attributes, show that they are manifesta-tions, inscriptions, mirrors, and works of art of a permanent and undying one.

ELEVENTH PROOF: Come, O friend. Now I will show you another decisive proof as powerful as the previous ten proofs put together. Let’s board the ship and sail to that peninsula over there, for the keys to this mysterious world are there.119( 119 The ship refers to history, the peninsula to the place of Time of Happiness, and the age of the Prophet. Taking off the dress of modern civilization on the dark shore of this age, we sail on the ship of history over the sea of time, land on the Arabian peninsula in the Time of Happiness, and visit the Pride of Creation as he is carrying out his mission. We know that he is a proof of Divine Unity so brilliant that he illuminates the whole Earth and the two faces of time (past and future), and disperses the darkness of unbelief and misguidance.)

Moreover, everyone is looking to that peninsula, expecting something and receiving orders from there. We have landed. Look at the huge meeting over there, as if all the country’s important people have gathered. Look carefully, for this great community has a leader. Let’s approach nearer to learn about him. See his brilliant decorations—more than a thousand.120(120 A thousand decorations signify the Prophet’s miracles that, according to meticulous researchers, number around one thousand.)

How forcefully he speaks.

How pleasant is his conversation. I have learned a little of what he says during these 15 days, and you could learn the same from me. He is speaking about the country’s glorious miracle-displaying sovereign, who has sent him to us. See, he is displaying such wonders that we have to admit the truth of what he says.

Look carefully. Not only the peninsula’s creatures are listening to him; he is making his voice heard in wonderful fashion by the whole country. Near and far, everyone is trying to listen to his discourse, even animals. Even the moun-tains are listening to the commandments he has brought so that they are stir-ring in their places. Those trees move to the place to which he points. He brings forth water wherever he wishes. He makes his fingers like an abundant spring and lets others drink from them.

Look, that important lamp in the palace’s dome splits into two at his ges-ture.121 (121 The important lamp is the moon, which split into two at his gesture. As Mawlana Jami remarked: “That unlettered one who never wrote, wrote with the pen of his finger an alif [the first letter of the Arabic alphabet] on the page of the skies, and made one forty into two fifties.” In other words, before he split the moon, it resembled the Arabic letter mim, the mathematical value of which is forty. After splitting, it became two crescents resembling two nuns, the value of which is fifty.)

That means this whole land and its inhabitants recognize that he is an envoy. As though understanding that he is the most eminent and true transla-tor of an unseen miracle-displaying one, the herald of his sovereignty, the dis-closer of his talisman, and a trustworthy envoy communicating his command-ments, they heed and obey him. All around him, those who are sensible affirm whatever he says. By submitting to his commands and answering his beckon-ing, everything in this land, even the mountains, the trees, and the huge light that illuminates everywhere, affirm him.122 (122 The author refers to the mountains and trees answering the Prophet’s call. See The Nineteenth Letter’s ninth through twelfth signs in Said Nursi, The Letters (Turkey: The Light, Inc., 2002) (Tr.) The huge light is the sun. Once the Prophet was sleeping in ‘Ali’s arms, who did not wake him up out of deep love and respect for him. When the Prophet woke up, the sun was about to set, and ‘Ali had not yet prayed the afternoon prayer. Upon the Prophet’s order, Earth revolved a little backwards and the sun appeared above the horizon so ‘Ali could pray. This is one of the Prophet’s famous miracles.)

So, O friend, could there be any deception in the information brought by this most illustrious, magnificent, and serious of beings, who bears 1,000 deco-rations from the king’s royal treasury? His words about the miracle-displaying king are said with total conviction and confirmed by all the country’s notables, as is his description of the king’s attributes and communication of his com-mands. If you think they contain some deception, you must deny the existence and reality of this palace, those lamps, and this congregation. Your objections will be refuted by the proof’s power.

TWELFTH PROOF: You must have come to your senses a little. I will show you further proof as strong as the sum of the previous eleven proofs. Look at this illustrious decree,123 which has descended from above and which everyone looks upon with full attention out of amazement or veneration. That being with 1,000 decorations is explaining its meaning. The decree’s brilliant style attracts everyone’s admiration, and speaks of matters so important and serious that everyone feels compelled to listen. It describes all the acts, attributes, and commands of the one who governs this land, who made this palace, and exhibits these wonders. There is a mighty seal on the decree, an irresistible seal on every line and sentence. The meanings, truths, commandments, and instances of wisdom it provides are in a style unique to him, which also func-tions like a stamp or seal.

In short, this supreme decree shows that supreme being as clearly as the sun, so that one who is not blind can “see” him. If you have come to your sens-es, friend, this is enough for now. Do you have more objections?

The stubborn man replied: “In the face of all these proofs I can only say: ‘All praise be to God,’ for I have come to believe, in a way as bright as the sun and clear as daylight, that this land has a single Lord of Perfection, this world a single Owner of Majesty, and this palace a single Maker of Grace. May God be pleased with you for saving me from my former obstinacy and foolishness. Each proof is sufficient to demonstrate the truth. But with each successive proof, clearer and finer, more pleasant, agreeable, and radiant levels of knowl-edge, scenes of acquaintanceship, and windows of love were opened and revealed. I listened and learned.”

The parable indicating the mighty truth of Divine Unity and belief in God is completed. Through the grace of the Most Merciful, the enlightenment of the Qur’an, and the light of belief, I will now show, after an introduction, 12 gleams from the sun of Divine Unity, corresponding to the 12 proofs in the parable. Success and guidance are from God alone.

(This goes onto explain alot more things )

Just wanted to quote this because I don't think anyone read this.

 

[Drsoccerball]

but why virgins?

Because they're seen as valuable.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Nice try, I don't think that is true for a lot of "Islamic" countries. I can get a list if you want. "Freely" is a word I would dispute.

I didn't reply to these messages because I clearly in previous posts said that if the "Islamic" countries aren't following what Islam teaches they can't be called Islamic and they're actions don't show what Islam teaches.

 

[Drsoccerball]

I don't disagree. (Its odd they have it in the name, but then again the church of Scientology isn't really a church, and the church of Jesus Christ of the LDS disagrees with most of what Jesus taught* unless you are a Mormon). But there are more groups that need to be passed on, and IS is only just one of them and that is what needs to happen. The Islamic community in the West needs to be vocal not just against IS, but the numerous other cases of those who use or misuse the name of Islam each day.

What can we do? We try to be as vocal as we possibly can...

 

[Drsoccerball]

“A married man had committed adultery with a married woman and they (Jewish Rabbis) said: ‘Send them to Muhammad and ask him what the law about them is and leave the penalty to him…Muhammad b. Talha b. Yazid b. Rukana from Ismail b. Ibrahim from Ibn Abbas told me that the apostle ordered them to be stoned, and they were stoned at the door of his mosque. And when the Jew felt the first stone he crouched over the woman to protect her from the stones until both of them were killed.” - Life of Mohammed pp.266-267

You got to understand at that time even if a woman/man was suspected of adultery the husband/wife would kill them without evidence as it would be the more "honourable" thing to do. So if they just lifted that all together the fornication in society would just exponentially increase. So they gave a nearly impossible way to get caught and that is to have 4 witnesses. Also the Jews were allowed to practice they're own law so...

“Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches… There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900… Then the apostle sent Sa’d b. Zayd al-Ansari brother of b. Abdu’l-Ahhal with some of the captive women of B. Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." - Life of Mohammed pp. 464

Are you going to quote what was happening at that time?

“Another was Abdullah b. Khatal...he had become Muslim had two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed with him. Another was al-Huwayrith b. Nuqaydh b. Wahb b. Abd b. Qusayy, one of those who used to insult him in Mecca.”

"Abdullah Ibn Khatal was a companion of Prophet Muhammad (p), sent out for a mission to collect alms (tax). A slave accompanied him. When they came to a place to rest, Abdullah told the slave to cook some food. Instead of the slave following orders, he was exhausted and ended up sleeping. When Abdullah woke up to see no food was prepared, he became vexed and attacked the slave and ended up killing him.

Abdullah was scared to go back to the Prophet (p) on what he had done because if he did so, he would have been killed for unlawfully taking a life. Hence, Ibn Khatal became a disbeliever and joined the enemies of the Prophet, the Quraish. So, when Prophet Muhammad (p) conquered Makkah, he was one of those whom the Prophet (p) had ordered be killed."
... You can literally find these yourself.

"Abu Afak was one of B. Amr b. Auf of the B. Ubayda clan. He showed his disaffection when the apostle killed al-Harith b. Suwayd b. Samit… The apostle said, ‘Who will deal with this rascal for me?’ whereupon Salim b. Umayr, brother of B. Amr b. Auf one of the ‘weepers’, went forth and killed him…When Abu Afak had been killed she (Asma b. Marwan) displayed disaffection" pp. 675 LOM

Straight off wiki : Abu 'Afak (Arabic: أبو عفك‎, died c. 624) was a Jewish poet who lived in the Hijaz region (today Saudi Arabia). Abu 'Afak did not convert to Islam and was vocal about his opposition to Muhammad. He became a significant political enemy of Muhammad.

" When the apostle heard what she had said he said, ‘Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?’ ‘Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he said, ‘You have helped God and His apostle, O ‘Umayr!’ When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, ‘Two goats won’t butt their heads about her,’ so Umayr went back to his people.” pp. 676 LOM

Context. It's like someone spreading negative propaganda in a war. Same with above

Do you need more?

No it's alright I don't want to waste your time.