Seriously - why the hell is English compulsory? (1 Viewer)

[mackay1]

I can see the appeal as to why some people might enjoy English as a subject, but it absolutely isn't for everyone. How stupid did nesa have to be to make it compulsory? In my opinion, it's boring, tedious and doesn't contain any real life skills. Not everyone wants to learn about culture, or who W.H. Auden is for fuck's sake. There would be no objections from any student if it were to stop being compulsory. It's an outdated subject within an even more outdated school system.

 

[sida1049]

I think English is an important subject and being able to analyse text and compose well-written arguments is a skill that you'll definitely see again in uni, and elsewhere in your adult life.

However, I think the most frustrating aspect of English is the way that assessments are done; 40 minutes per handwritten essay on the spot with students needing to memorise arguments, quotes, their entire pre-written essays, is pretty dumb and outdated, and I definitely agree that this should go away. I'd be 100% behind an assessment structure for English that entirely consists of take-home essays.

 

[Time&moretime]

I can see the appeal as to why some people might enjoy English as a subject, but it absolutely isn't for everyone. How stupid did nesa have to be to make it compulsory? In my opinion, it's boring, tedious and doesn't contain any real life skills. Not everyone wants to learn about culture, or who W.H. Auden is for fuck's sake. There would be no objections from any student if it were to stop being compulsory. It's an outdated subject within an even more outdated school system.

I think English is an important subject and being able to analyse text and compose well-written arguments is a skill that you'll definitely see again in uni, and elsewhere in your adult life.

However, I think the most frustrating aspect of English is the way that assessments are done; 40 minutes per handwritten essay on the spot with students needing to memorise arguments, quotes, their entire pre-written essays, is pretty dumb and outdated, and I definitely agree that this should go away. I'd be 100% behind an assessment structure for English that entirely consists of take-home essays.

‘English’ is a bane to many students. Unfortunately, it is compulsory and does scale well to a certain extent. Try putting predicted marks in any ATAR calculator and with every mark gained in English, you’ll see a jump in the ATAR. It is the subject that can make or break you therefore should be taken seriously. It is ART. Difficult to teach and difficult to master. Past duxes of my school have all excelled in English. Also, quite common is that they tend to be good at Maths too. I agree with you that it isn’t for everyone, but you’ll need it if you intend to apply for further education. In agreement with ‘sida1049’.

 

[Drdusk]

I think English is an important subject and being able to analyse text and compose well-written arguments is a skill that you'll definitely see again in uni, and elsewhere in your adult life.

Don't even go there lol

 

[Accurate]

Moving to Yr 11 next year and I still can't properly write an essay..

 

[sida1049]

Don't even go there lol

already did

Personally, I don't really see the application of HSC english in adult life, or for further education either. Writing scientific papers and technical reports is very different to spitting out essays, and I don't think HSC english helps with the latter. I say this because I don't consider myself to have learnt anything in HSC english - I cheated in an assessment (and got caught), and only wrote 3 essays (1 for each module) that entire year, which I memorized and used for every assessment task thereafter including in the HSC. I didn't even know what protagonist/antagonist meant until I was in uni lol. Blew my mind when I found out, since I kept referred to the antagonist in my essays as "the bad guy"...

I genuinely think this 100% is the result of the trash assessment structure for English. In enforcing the 40 min handwritten essay, it robs students of the opportunity to really reflect and think about what they're writing and in turn the text itself. (Somewhat similar to the rote-y-ness of HSC maths.)

I definitely learned a lot from English, and I think that's mostly because I actually sat down and read the texts and thought about them in my own time. In comparison, plenty of students did way better than me without even reading the text by composing the essays based off of study guides. This is why change needs to happen.


Consider this 2-hour long video essay on a video game that's not even fun. The guy played 60 hours of a game that even he himself can't recommend to anyone, but derived personal meaning from the game and is able to convey it by contextualising it as a video game itself. No other subject in the HSC comes close to giving you skills to understand and identify the value of a work that you encounter/enjoy. Imagine watching a movie you love, and when someone asks you why you love it, you mind-blank for a whole minute and all you manage to fucking say is "...it's just really good..."

Edit: more food for thought: if the video essayist had only told you "I love the game, even though it's not fun at all", would you believe him? In actually critiquing the game, he is able to convey the meaningfulness of the game to you and I and thus give the work value, even though we will likely never play the game. So if you can't defend why something is valuable to you, then that thing has less value to not only others, but also to yourself, as you are unable to appreciate the attributes of that something.

HSC English is flawed and needs revision, but is important. I will die on this hill.

 

[andrew12678]

I'd be 100% behind an assessment structure for English that entirely consists of take-home essays.

Completely agree with this, I feel like the most valuable skills I took away from English was in actually "preparing" the essay where you learn to present your analytical skills in a sophisticated yet nuanced manner (something I believe is essential post-HSC). However, these qualities go out the window in the actual assessments as a result of time pressure and the necessity to answer a usually really specific question (I would also totally be a fan of open/rubric style exam questions being asked only)

 

[seremify007]

I think there’s three different things here - English as an area of study vs the syllabus/desired outcomes vs how it is taught and assessed.

It’s been a while since I did my HSC but to the credit of the last point, learning to express myself and adapt my views to address a question or respond to stimulus is a very intangible skill but one where in my professional life I can clearly see a difference between those who can and those who can’t. I only did advanced English but I don’t think the behaviours gained from this were wasted especially the need to be precise and concise when expressing myself. The nature of the assessments unfortunately encourages people to rote learn responses but the need to stick to a word limit or a time limit brings a degree of deliberateness which is something I’ve found very useful in life beyond school.

As for the other points around the conceptual question of whether the study of the national language should be mandatory and what the syllabus material contains, that’s a whole other set of debates... and typing on an iPhone isn’t ideal for long winded posts

 

[Pedro123]

I would like to revive this if you don't mind - please see below:

I have heard many theories over the years, but no-one I know really knows the definitive answer (There probably is one). I always thought that English really was quite stupid - the only thing I could think of to support it is that it makes a good influence on the essays you may write in later years (Good structure). Some people say it's because we should be doing at least 1 Arts/Humanities subject, and English is the most academic-based of them all (Seems a bit iffy).
It is one of the most specific subjects, in that the essay writing skills you get from it are good, but the ability to analyse literature and identifying techniques isn't used in any line of work EXCEPT literature, in which case you would take English.

Presumably, other subjects can teach you to write good essays, i.e. many students I know who got 93+ in English also took SOR, which was extremely useful for their essay writing skills. At the same time, they used objective data and examples as opposed to opinions to form their arguments.
If it is about creating arguments, then should we not all have to do debating of some kind? (Weirdly, I absolutely love debating, and if I do say so am not bad myself.)
If it is about forming an opinion, you can do that in a lot of subjects.
English has also been (In my experience) the most complained about HSC subject because you can never tell if you do well in it. I knew a kid a couple of years back - exceptional at analysis and English as a whole (He was published professionally while in High School). He got a Band 5 in English Advanced but got E4 in both Extention 1 and 2 English and state rank in one of those (I forget which one). It is so difficult, so unnecessarily stressful, and it doesn't scale well. It is as if they want to make our lives here difficult.

If it is about the language, then why not instead have a solely grammar/ spelling -based exam?

Math compulsory I can understand (I am biased since I do like math) and at least it has some real-world applications, but English has virtually none. Why do we have it?

 

[Constantine]

Many interesting opinions. It was a pleasure to read them all.

For the original poster – if you cannot change the game then dedicate yourself to playing the game well.
I do think English should be compulsory but I also think Maths should be added as well.

 

[Cujo10]

IMO Stranded English is catered towards people that want a career as a fiction novel author or another creative story development. I found this out by how essays are set out to find the "effect" of a particular story element, which in practice this would help in theses type of careers. But for people who want to pursue the STEM careers this doesn't help at all. Maybe add some topics like: technical writing and scientific writing to the syllabus to help broaden up the topics for all career types.

 

[studiesofboard]

I personally enjoy English it's my favourite subject tbh. I also think English should be compulsory.

reasons why:

• English is important if you want to get a job in the future.
• it is the most spoken language and we all speak it (as shown in this thread)
• communicating with others
• important to understand, learn and speak
• writing - we do this everyday

 

[Drdusk]

I personally enjoy English it's my favourite subject tbh. I also think English should be compulsory.

reasons why:

• English is important if you want to get a job in the future.
• it is the most spoken language and we all speak it (as shown in this thread)
• communicating with others
• important to understand, learn and speak
• writing - we do this everyday

1) Analysing texts and writing essays on it has no relevance to my career in computer science. I can verify English has not at all helped directly or indirectly in applying for any internships and what not.

2)I could speak English very well without the need of HSC English. It has done nothing to improve my speech or vocabulary. All it did for my vocabulary is that I learnt a few fancy words which really there is no need for in everyday life.

3) English teaches jack about communication and i could communicate very well without the subject

4) Again HSC English has no relevance to my field and I couldn’t care less about understanding it.

5) I have not written a single essay or really even written anything for Computer Science. Physics makes you write assignments and reports and again that has no relevance to English because literally everyone I know either hated it or didn’t care about it. The skills I learnt in English have not contributed to anything

In all HSC English is a useless subject. Up to year 10 it’s alright to be compulsory, after that it’s a big no.

 

[studiesofboard]

Although you may not need it many jobs require it such as teaching, ESL teaching, and the whole education and creative writing course. It may not be relevant to you but for the majority of jobs, English is crucial. One positive of studying English is that English can boost your scaling/overall HSC mark if you do good in it. So dealing with it for the two years of your HSC should
be fine

 

[Drdusk]

Although you may not need it many jobs require it such as teaching, ESL teaching, and the whole education and creative writing course. It may not be relevant to you but for the majority of jobs, English is crucial.

No it's not. What proof is there that it is relevant to majority of jobs? Pretty much no one in STEM uses English and that makes up a very large chunk of the workforce. The only remaining things are Medicine, Law Art etc where English would be useful.

One positive of studying English is that English can boost your scaling/overall HSC mark if you do good in it. So dealing with it for the two years of your HSC should
be fine

As for this. Many students have their atar dragged down by English. Were forced to study a subject we don't at all have any interest in. I don't care now but back in the HSC I was dam well pissed off at having to do English.

 

[studiesofboard]

People in STEM may not use what is studied in high school English but words that you learn could possibly be implemented in other jobs.

 

[SpiderX1X]

English is literally just picking out techniques from some old text and making essays on the techniques you found by justifying it with some bullshit "analysis". I dont think any job requires that in the future.

 

[Drdusk]

People in STEM may not use what is studied in high school English but words that you learn could possibly be implemented in other jobs.

I learnt a few fancy words which is not a large difference. Either way reading a book is a much more effective way to increase your vocabulary and doesn't require you to sit through analyzing techniques and what not.

 

[Cujo10]

This compulsory english will end, soon. But before it does, a lot more people gotta cry.

 

[Pedro123]

I have actually come up with another theory - English is there to stop STEM students (Hear me out).
A lot of stem subjects have a lot of crossover in the sort of skills they need (i.e. physics needs math, engineering needs physics, so on). These skills are usually characterised by problem-solving and understanding the concepts presented to you (Very broad stroke). Many students have these skills from birth, and they can uniquely be better taught to students from a young age.

If we were to ditch english, these students would much better be able to run wild in the courses - the STEM subjects with higher scaling means that they can just dedicate their life to those skills. While that is not necessarily a bad thing, it does mean they line themselves for an entirely STEM job. This should be their choice.

The issue comes when you have students who do not necessarily have those same skills. They will pick subjects like Business studies or history or languages or something not STEM related, which may be hard, but does not necessarily scale well. (This looks at a deep rooted issue in our education system.) So, students could theoretically do a bunch of subjects that have such easily transferable skills (Not just something as general as essay writing, since essay writing in economics is very different to essay writing in history) and do brilliantly, which then makes our nation move to more STEM-based qualification.

While this may not be bad, there still needs to be some variation in the sorts of things students do, and other students need a chance. Enter English. English is aimed (Since it must count to your HSC) to stop this entrenchment - it works virtually the exact opposite way to any STEM subject for some unique reasons:
1) Extremely subjective - other than spelling and grammar, everything is subjective, nothing is objective
2) The ways you support your answer must be backed up by evidence that is not necessarily obvious, as in a thesis in economics could be supported with facts, but a thesis in english must be supported by analysis of a piece you must do yourself (I mean you can look it up but still)
3) Everything can be argued - that is, when you enter an exam, as long as you back up a claim with evidence, anything is right. This not only forces children to think critically about what exactly their opinion is but investigate why it is so.
4) Really, English is an art (especially writing creatives). You could do all the analysis into different eras and writing styles, create the perfect formula for a piece, but in the end, it is an art. You need to be able to naturally replicate a piece by taking conventions and integrating them with yourself.
5) Math especially has a process - this does this, which leads to this, which leads to this. You cross a threshold where you can completely understand what is put in front of you. With English, you need to constantly learn and absorb information, and you never truly know if you are ready. Also, you need to be much more adaptable (With new syllabus change) to the situation at hand - while math problems require problem-solving skills, answering an English question needs you to formulate a response of what is an opinion, and you never really know when you have finished supporting it.

While we all would love english to be gotten rid of, would we really appreciate having to compete with students who have had tutoring since they were 3 years old in math and who now are Gods at it? Personally, I don't think my daily visits to Khan Academy could ever go toe-to-toe with tens of thousands of dollars of tutoring from a young age. I by no means support English - but I can see a reason for having it.
Please debate - I am keen for feedback