what subjects to pick, and what courses to apply for, to become a doctor without wasting your money and time (1 Viewer)

[isaezra]

TL;DR If you want to go into medicine;
1. take chemistry, and advanced math or higher
2. sit the UCAT
3. apply for early entry into the "Bachelors of Medicine/Bachelor of Surgery" (MBBS) at JCU and Curtin
4. if you don't get in, apply for regular UAC entry into any MBBS
5. if you don't get in, apply for anything that looks like "Bachelor of [Blank] and Doctor of Medicine" (Mx/MD)
6. if you don't get in DO NOT APPLY FOR ANY OTHER COURSE WITH THE WORDS "MED" OR "MEDICINE" IN IT
7. instead, get any bachelors degree you want, graduate, sit the GAMSAT, and apply for any post-graduate "Doctor of Medicine" (MD)


So, you're in year 10 or 11 and you want to get into medicine. Here are your options:

There are only two types of university courses you can apply to as a year 12 student that will allow you to become a Medical Board approved medical practitioner as soon as you graduate, these are a Bachelors of Medicine/Bachelor of Surgery (MBBS), and a sequential degree that looks like Bachelor of [Blank] and Doctor of Medicine" (Mx/MD).

MBBS: This is by far the cheapest option. There are so few listed here as many universities have replaced their MBBS with a Bx/MD since they can charge more. All MBBS courses require that you sit the UCAT.

School	Prerequisite	Years	Minimum ATAR
UTas	Chemistry	5	95
AU	Advanced Math* or Biology or Chemistry	6	90
JCU	Advanced Math* and Chemistry	6	Unknown. Early offers made from your school's predition of your ATAR. Final offers from HSC results.
Curtin	Chemistry	5	95. Early offers made from school’s prediction. Final offers from HSC results

Bx/MD: You'll have to pay a lot extra for one of these, and you'll probably have to sit the UCAT anyway, but they are less competitive and gaurentee you the same qualifations as an MBBS

School	Prerequisite	Years	Minimum ATAR
UNSW	UCAT	6	Lowest ATAR 96.2
USyd	N/A	7	99.95
Monash	UCAT and Chemistry	5	90
Western Sydney and Charles Sturt	UCAT	5	95
Bond	Advanced Math* or Chemistry or Physics	4.6	96
Flinders	UCAT	4	95
UON and UWE	UCAT	5	Unknown
UWA	UCAT	4	99

If you think you'll get below a 95, there are other pathways into med, however they do not guarantee you any medical qualifications

Premed/"medical science": Similar to Mx/MD except entry into the MD portion is not guaranteed. If you are successful, you'll spend 3 years in undergrad and 4 years in post-grad. You do not have to sit any external exams, however there is a risk of wasting 3 years of uni fees and a high ATAR if you don't get into MD

School	Course Name	Prerequisite	MD places available	Minimum ATAR
UNSW	B. Medical Science	Advanced Math* and Chemistry	10	Lowest ATAR 81.2
Monash	B. Biomedical Science	N/A	51	85
Bond	B. Biomedical Science	Advanced Math* or Physics	"Limited"	80
Macquarie	B. Clinical Science	N/A	20	90
UOW	B. Pre-medicine, Science and Health	Advanced Math*	12	95
Griffith	B. Medical Science	Standard Math** and any Science	All B.Med students with a 5.0 GPA	90
ANU	B. Health Science	1 Semester of any math in year 11 or 12	30	90

Doctor of Medicine (MD): If you have a bachelors degree in any field, and pass the minimum GPA and GAMSAT requirements, you can complete an MD and graduate with the same qualification all of the courses listed above will get you. This will be another 4 years on top of your 3 year undergrad. These are offered at most universities.

* Advanced Math (NSW), Methods (Vic, ACT, Tas, WA, SA), B (QLD)
** Standard Math (NSW), General (VIC, Tas, SA), Applications (ACT, WA), A (QLD)

 

[Velocifire]

UoN is 94.3 I presume https://www.newcastle.edu.au/joint-medical-program/selection-process/academic-eligibility

 

[c8]

Thanks for this it's super useful and succinct!

Just adding a few things: I read on medstudentsonline that the government no longer has any undergrad med places as full fee paying places (although I believe bond is like a private uni or smth like that and so is different) so I wouldn't really put cost as the first and foremost factor for getting into medicine. Also, typically there isn't a huge variety of you being able to pick and choose, if you're truly dedicated just apply to every med course and choose based on first where you want to go, second location and duration. Also, sometimes the longer duration can be better, eg unsw's 6 years accounts for the one research year, and in the long run, choosing a longer degree which is maybe two years longer than the shortest, around 5 years, in the larger scheme of things won't make the hugest difference in a career of medicine

 

[dotwingz]

Great thread on the whole, can vouch for most of the advice. Although you seem to confuse undergrad MBBS, undergrad Bx/MD, and provisional Bx/MD.

4. if you don't get in, apply for regular UAC entry into any MBBS
5. if you don't get in, apply for anything that looks like "Bachelor of [Blank] and Doctor of Medicine" (Mx/MD)

If your implying a BMedSc/MD at UON or BMed/MD at UNSW is anything less than a MBBS at UAdel or JCU you're wrong. If you're implying that an undergrad integrated MD (like UNSW or UON) is better than a provisional one (say BSc/MD at USYD) then yeah that can be a fair statement, but many (like myself) choose provisional pathways as a way of exploring interests prior to med school but still guaranteeing themselves graduation as a doctor.

MBBS: This is by far the cheapest option. There are so few listed here as many universities have replaced their MBBS with a Bx/MD since they can charge more.

Not true. It is true that the MD was replaced at University of Melbourne, which was the first uni to run a MD for this reason (as the rudd government banned FFP in Undergrad courses). The majority of schools choose to swap over for nomenclature reasons, as the MD is seen as a lil sexier, particularly to international students which are a serious source of dosh. Also a comment could be made of the greater societal trend towards Americanisms but that's a different story. I suggest you read this. https://www.mja.com.au/system/files/issues/193_11_061210/rob11006_fm.pdf

All MBBS courses require that you sit the UCAT.

Not true, JCU does not require the UCAT

UTas | Chemistry | 95

ehh technically true. UTAS has a minimum 95 for consideration but non-rural, interstate students require well into the 99s (99.9+ IIRC) as entry is decided solely on ATAR with heavy preference to Taswegians and rural students

Monash UCAT and Chemistry 5 90

ehhh once again, although monash only allocates 30-places (based on interview estimates, they only run 60 interviews) for interstate students. Which means the ATAR requirement gets pushed up to 99.85+ with a very high ucat

Anectodotally, a mate of mine got 99.75 and a ~3300 ucat and didnt get an interview invite so go figure

Bx/MD: You'll have to pay a lot extra for one of these, and you'll probably have to sit the UCAT anyway, but they are less competitive and gaurentee you the same qualifations as an MBBS

Not true at all? BMedSt/MD at Bond University and MD at mq/unda will cost you more as they are full fee paying institutions (also Unimelb run full fee places which cost a shit tonne) . But for example a BMedSt/MD at UON, UNE, WSU,Monash or any other 5 year courses will be cheaper than the 6 MBBS on offer at Adelaide (soon to be MD), JCU, etc. The cost of university is dependent on courses, not degrees. For which the government classifies 'Medicine' as equivalent at all. The difference in cost comes down to whether you pay full fees, only a very small minority of students dont

UNSW | UCAT | Lowest ATAR 96.2

For general applicants its 99.25. The 96.25 is for ATSI/Rural subcategories. See this email i made with UNSW at the beginning of this year

UON and UNE UCAT 5 Unknown

ATAR is a 94.3 hurdle. Meaning that a 94.35 is equivalent to 99.95. See the policy documents on the JMP website

Premed/"medical science": Similar to Mx/MD except entry into the MD portion is not guaranteed. If you are successful, you'll spend 3 years in undergrad and 4 years in post-grad. You do not have to sit any external exams, however there is a risk of wasting 3 years of uni fees and a high ATAR if you don't get into MD

Good advice but a little misguided. The integrated Bx/MDs are medicine. UNSW requires applicants sit UCAT for lateral entry iirc (could be wrong here).

Griffith MedSci is the only exception to "dont do a medsci degree" advice i give everyone. Griffith medsci is guarenteed medicine above a 5.0 GPA. This IS provisional entry, and is absolutely worth doing it. Allthough i would recommend elsewhere if you have a CSP possible given that your status as a CSP/BMP gets decided at the end of 2nd year

Doctor of Medicine (MD): If you have a bachelors degree in any field, and pass the minimum GPA and GAMSAT requirements, you can complete an MD and graduate with the same qualification all of the courses listed above will get you. This will be another 4 years on top of your 3 year undergrad. These are offered at most universities.

Great advice. I would reccommend to anyone going for graduate entry med to pick ANYTHING as an undergrad, as you said, they are all equivalent

Like i said, good advice and collation. But what you said about the differences in MBBS and MDs is misguided. If anyone has any questions i rarely browse BOS so PM me on medstudentsonline (im dotwingz)

 

[dotwingz]

Thanks for this it's super useful and succinct!

Just adding a few things: I read on medstudentsonline that the government no longer has any undergrad med places as full fee paying places (although I believe bond is like a private uni or smth like that and so is different) so I wouldn't really put cost as the first and foremost factor for getting into medicine.

Exactly true, funnily enough i wrote that on MSO

Also, sometimes the longer duration can be better, eg unsw's 6 years accounts for the one research year, and in the long run, choosing a longer degree which is maybe two years longer than the shortest, around 5 years, in the larger scheme of things won't make the hugest difference in a career of medicine

Also true. A full career in medicine is med school (6 years) + intern & residency (2 years) + training (5 years plus how many years you slog trying to get onto a training scheme. https://medinav.health.qld.gov.au/ This website has good data under the 'new trainee section' of each specialty over how many years after med school people START training. E.g. for orthopaedics its PGY7, so after intern and residency most people slog an extra 5 years on non training posts to be selected to training, before spending another 5 years training.

In the grand scheme a year or two to explore your interests as a teenager isnt going to make that big of a dent in your life

 

[quickoats]

6. if you don't get in DO NOT APPLY FOR ANY OTHER COURSE WITH THE WORDS "MED" OR "MEDICINE" IN IT

Don't take this toooo literally, OP is referring to the bulk of medical science applicants who missed out on med (this excludes those in medsci who want to pursue a career in research).

There are many courses in the allied health field which offer vocational training thus "guaranteeing" a job. Medical imaging/radiation science, paramedicine, and podiatric medicine come to mind - don't worry, they're not scam degrees. The word medicine just pops up because of the degree nomenclature - no red flags here. You can apply for medicine after you finish your degree, or enjoy a fulfilling life working in a healthcare context

However, you should probably be avoiding courses like "Western Herbal Medicine" (this is self explanatory) but if that's your thing, then go for it! Disclaimer: these dodgy degrees may not be taken seriously for MD entrance.

Also to tabulate what @dotwingz wrote about degree names, I would say there's 3 "types" of degree - MBBS, [Bx MD] (in brackets as one) and BAnything + MD. In [Bx MD] programs you cannot take the Bx or the MD part separately, as they must be done as one. However, the BAnything + MD means that both degrees are completed separately (and can be taken by themselves), even if they're packaged as one degree for year 12 leavers. BAnything + MD will take a little longer (which isn't a big problem - you've got a super long life ahead of you).

You can treat MBBS and [Bx MD] exactly the same - same cost and same time frame (5-6 years of fees).

MBBS	[Bx MD]	BAnything + MD (yr 12 entry) - MD can also be done seperately	MD (no yr 12 entry)
UTAS Curtin UAdel JCU	Monash - BMedSc MD # UoN/UNE (JMP) - BMedSc MD WSU/CSU (JPM) - BClinSc MD UNSW - BMedSt MD # Bond^ - BMedSt MD #	USyd UniMelb (and La Trobe path) UQld UWA Flinders* (and Charles Darwin path) Griffith* (and Sunny Coast path)	ANU # Wollongong # Notre Dame (Syd and Perth) Deakin

*Note that Griffith and Flinders have seperate MD entry but their Bx cannot be done standalone. For yr 12s you can sorta treat them like [Bx MD]'s.
^Bond is much more expensive than the other [Bx MD}s.
#These unis have have quotas where their own students can slide into med - not recommended as it is not guaranteed.

No shade intended, just trying to clear up the confusing names.

 

[dotwingz]

Don't take this toooo literally, OP is referring to the bulk of medical science applicants who missed out on med (this excludes those in medsci who want to pursue a career in research).

There are many courses in the allied health field which offer vocational training thus "guaranteeing" a job. Medical imaging/radiation science, paramedicine, and podiatric medicine come to mind - don't worry, they're not scam degrees. The word medicine just pops up because of the degree nomenclature - no red flags here. You can apply for medicine after you finish your degree, or enjoy a fulfilling life working in a healthcare context

However, you should probably be avoiding courses like "Western Herbal Medicine" (this is self explanatory) but if that's your thing, then go for it! Disclaimer: these dodgy degrees may not be taken seriously for MD entrance.

Also to tabulate what @dotwingz wrote about degree names, I would say there's 3 "types" of degree - MBBS, [Bx MD] (in brackets as one) and BAnything + MD. In [Bx MD] programs you cannot take the Bx or the MD part separately, as they must be done as one. However, the BAnything + MD means that both degrees are completed separately (and can be taken by themselves), even if they're packaged as one degree for year 12 leavers. BAnything + MD will take a little longer (which isn't a big problem - you've got a super long life ahead of you).

You can treat MBBS and [Bx MD] exactly the same - same cost and same time frame (5-6 years of fees).

MBBS	[Bx MD]	BAnything + MD (yr 12 entry) - MD can also be done seperately	MD (no yr 12 entry)
UTAS Curtin UAdel JCU	Monash - BMedSc MD # UoN/UNE (JMP) - BMedSc MD WSU/CSU (JPM) - BClinSc MD UNSW - BMedSt MD # Bond^ - BMedSt MD #	USyd UniMelb (and La Trobe path) UQld UWA Flinders* (and Charles Darwin path) Griffith* (and Sunny Coast path)	ANU # Wollongong # Notre Dame (Syd and Perth) Deakin

*Note that Griffith and Flinders have seperate MD entry but their Bx cannot be done standalone. For yr 12s you can sorta treat them like [Bx MD]'s.

^Bond is much more expensive than the other [Bx MD}s.
#These unis have have quotas where their own students can slide into med - not recommended as it is not guaranteed.

No shade intended, just trying to clear up the confusing names.

yep perfectly said. Tysm