School Not Letting Certain Students Into Advanced. (1 Viewer)

[TheGoingGetsTough]

Hey guys. I am currently in 5.2 and am being allowed to do extension since there is space in that class. Another friend of mine who I convinced to do extension is also doing extension.

Anyway, many people in my 5.2 class wanted to do advanced but not extension. Suddenly the teacher announced that only 3 people from my class will be going to extension/advanced. People in my class were pretty disappointed, sad and angry about the news and the teacher had to say that there was no place for them.

A guy I knew tried pretty damn hard and he is going to be pretty sad that he can't do advance.

Are schools allowed to stop students from doing certain subjects? And how can some of the other people in my class do Advanced despite the class being full?

 

[ExtremelyBoredUser]

Hey guys. I am currently in 5.2 and am being allowed to do extension since there is space in that class. Another friend of mine who I convinced to do extension is also doing extension.

Anyway, many people in my 5.2 class wanted to do advanced but not extension. Suddenly the teacher announced that only 3 people from my class will be going to extension/advanced. People in my class were pretty disappointed, sad and angry about the news and the teacher had to say that there was no place for them.

A guy I knew tried pretty damn hard and he is going to be pretty sad that he can't do advance.

Are schools allowed to stop students from doing certain subjects? And how can some of the other people in my class do Advanced despite the class being full?

yea schools can stop u from doing a course if they dont believe ur worth the spot/you won't be able to cope. Ext 1 has 5.3 + 5.3 optional topics so if u only did 5.2 you're already at a disadvantage. The only way you can convince your head teacher or whoever's accepting entry to enrol you is to;

- show you need it for a course after uni e.g Engineering/Comp Sci which normally has MX1 as assumed knowledge in UNSW. [u dont necessarily have to want to do this but it will show that its much more than ur interested in the course]

- ask advice on how you can show that you're capable to do the course rather than simply saying "I can do it i'll work hard". I can guarantee the later is going to turn off teachers since everyone's going to say it, and it doesn't have much value since not everyone's true to their word.

but yea ultimately its up to the school and if u cant do ext 1, its unfortunate but life goes on so just make the most of ur other subjects.

 

[TheGoingGetsTough]

I got the best grades(96) in that class so I am being allowed to do math extension and advanced.

I was more asking for the other people in my class. They seemed pretty crushed that they could not do advanced

 

[ExtremelyBoredUser]

I got the best grades(96) in that class so I am being allowed to do math extension and advanced.

I was more asking for the other people in my class. They seemed pretty crushed that they could not do advanced

Yeah well thats on them, you can forward this advice to them and if they have any slight thing going for them, like high grades for example or perhaps a teacher recommendation, then they can always try a shot.

 

[CM_Tutor]

Maybe they can offer to do some Advanced work over the holidays and be tested at the start of the year, to prove they can catch up / cope?

 

[Drongoski]

Students in Yr 7 & 8 should make sure to put in the necessary efforts to get into 5.3 stream later. If you end up in 5.2 or 5.1, there must be a reason. If you are assigned the 5.2 stream, maybe you should put in extra efforts to justify an upgrade into 5.3.

I imagine 5.2 teachers will try to have a more gentle pace, not cover harder or more advanced treatment; this way you will always stay sub-standard. If students want to do Advanced or Extension later on, they must make sure they don't get stuck in 5.2; else your chances of doing Advance or Ext will be pretty slim. I recall helping a Yr 10 student in 5.2 improve his maths (he said he has woken up, and was determined to do better), and he managed to demonstrate to his teacher that he was worthy of Advanced when he went on to Yr 11.

Why regret now that you are not allowed to do Advanced or Extension. Isn't it a little too late?

 

[ExtremelyBoredUser]

Students in Yr 7 & 8 should make sure to put in the necessary efforts to get into 5.3 stream later. If you end up in 5.2 or 5.1, there must be a reason. If you are assigned the 5.2 stream, maybe you should put in extra efforts to justify an upgrade into 5.3.

I imagine 5.2 teachers will try to have a more gentle pace, not cover harder or more advanced treatment; this way you will always stay sub-standard. If students want to do Advanced or Extension later on, they must make sure they don't get trapped in 5.2; else your chances of doing Advance or Ext will be pretty slim. I recall helping a Yr 10 student in 5.2 improve his maths (he said he has wokened up, and was determined to do better), and he managed to demonstrate to his teacher that he was worthy of Advanced when he went on to Yr 11.

Why regret now that you are not allowed to do Advanced or Extension. Isn't it a little too late?

Definitely. A 5.3 student who slacked off has better chances of getting in than a 5.2 student considering the huge gap in content - the effort required for a 5.2 student to catch up to the pre-requisites is extreme and not normal for most students at that level, and even then they'll still be sub mediocre considering that other 5.3 students who do enter the course would've put very less/minimal effort in comparison. From that standpoint, it just seems better for such students to put that amount of effort into other subjects such as Humanities or Sciences and have their efforts rewarded significantly.

 

[TheGoingGetsTough]

Students in Yr 7 & 8 should make sure to put in the necessary efforts to get into 5.3 stream later. If you end up in 5.2 or 5.1, there must be a reason. If you are assigned the 5.2 stream, maybe you should put in extra efforts to justify an upgrade into 5.3.

I imagine 5.2 teachers will try to have a more gentle pace, not cover harder or more advanced treatment; this way you will always stay sub-standard. If students want to do Advanced or Extension later on, they must make sure they don't get trapped in 5.2; else your chances of doing Advance or Ext will be pretty slim. I recall helping a Yr 10 student in 5.2 improve his maths (he said he has wokened up, and was determined to do better), and he managed to demonstrate to his teacher that he was worthy of Advanced when he went on to Yr 11.

Why regret now that you are not allowed to do Advanced or Extension. Isn't it a little too late?

I personally disagree with you comment. I personally think it is unfair to put pressure on 12-14 year olds to decide what careers they want to go to. You are right about it being to late for them. They were given 5.3 material to study on at the beginning of the year to see if they could get into advance. I just think it is a little unfair for them. The only reason me and my friend got in was because we wanted to do extension and there was seats in that class and you need to do advance to do extension.

 

[TheGoingGetsTough]

Definitely. A 5.3 student who slacked off has better chances of getting in than a 5.2 student considering the huge gap in content - the effort required for a 5.2 student to catch up to the pre-requisites is extreme and not normal for most students at that level, and even then they'll still be sub mediocre considering that other 5.3 students who do enter the course would've put very less/minimal effort in comparison. From that standpoint, it just seems better for such students to put that amount of effort into other subjects such as Humanities or Sciences and have their efforts rewarded significantly.

I disagree. Advance topics are more similar to 5.2 than 5.3. I am in 5.2 and I have learned all of the advance material and am now working on the maths extension material. I am doing circle geometry and it isn't that hard.

Since I am a new user I can't send links but the education standard nsw website has the curriculum

EDIT: upon looking at the website, advance students don't do Polynomials

 

[TheGoingGetsTough]

Maybe they can offer to do some Advanced work over the holidays and be tested at the start of the year, to prove they can catch up / cope?

They teachers are acting as if the classes have been set

 

[ExtremelyBoredUser]

I disagree. Advance topics are more similar to 5.2 than 5.3. I am in 5.2 and I have learned all of the advance material and am now working on the maths extension material. I am doing circle geometry and it isn't that hard.

Ah i see, well from what I've heard from other 5.2 students:

I can't really agree with you about "Advance topics are more similar to 5.2 than 5.3" assuming you're referring to the optional substrands of 5.3? I've just never seen the overlaps between 5.2 and the substrands let alone how its more linked than 5.3? From what I've seen with peers who did 5.2, they didn't go in depth with the material and it was very basic? Perhaps they're just outliers and 5.2 content has strong overlap with 5.3

If you're talking about HSC Maths Advanced then yes, definitely, maths advanced starts where 5.2 leaves off imo and the first two terms felt more like revision for 5.3 stuff than anything. Ext 1 seems to pick off where 5.3 left off with polynomials regularly being first topic + trig.

My main point was that the average person in 5.2 might not be capable of mastering 5.3 optional substrands in the time frame given and to prove that to a HT (anyone can do maths, not the point, you can get a newbie and get them up to any high school level given time + persistence). The fact that you find Circle Geometry not hard just proves that you're way above the standard, an outlier, since that is considered quite challenging amongst 5.3 students but perhaps your experience is otherwise. If your peers are finding such content easy as well, then you should encourage them to find a way to communicate their skill if they can, however if they were to have such mastery they would've done extremely well in their finals as yourself?

Perhaps your right but its just what I've interpreted from peers doing 5.2.

They teachers are acting as if the classes have been set

Yeah there's no real way to get in those classes unless someone drops before the first exam, and then there could be leniency to providing entry to the course, but the thing is that students normally drop after the first exam if they feel they cant cope with it - and by that time it would be considered too late to join so in most cases your last shot is before holidays.

I wouldn't give up on that basis though, still worth a shot since a couple of people do decide ext 1 is not their cup of tea at the beginning weeks.

 

[may22]

I disagree. Advance topics are more similar to 5.2 than 5.3. I am in 5.2 and I have learned all of the advance material and am now working on the maths extension material. I am doing circle geometry and it isn't that hard.

Since I am a new user I can't send links but the education standard nsw website has the curriculum

EDIT: upon looking at the website, advance students don't do Polynomials

Nope; 5.3 is pretty much the prep course for getting into advanced math, similar to the way you can't do extension 1 or 2 without advanced.

A lot of the content covered in 5.3 sets the basis for doing advanced math. At my school, no 5.2 students got into advanced, and many of those who were in 5.3 and did get into advanced dropped to standard, because it is ADVANCED math; it's meant to be difficult.

Also, many teachers will go out of their way to get their 5.3 kids ahead and ready for adv/ext. My year 10 math teacher (who took my class into year 11 and 12) did logs (adv) and polys (ext) with us, and our year 10 yearly exam had HSC questions in there.

Don't doubt what the teachers are doing. If they aren't letting some kids in, it may well be because they may not be able to meet the expectations required of them in adv and ext. In the end, the teachers are the ones who 1) know the course 2) know the kids ability/potential 3) have the experience to make the judgement. Yes, it is unfortunate for some of your classmates but...it's best to just make the most of the situation and see how you go.

 

[TheGoingGetsTough]

The fact that you find Circle Geometry not hard just proves that you're way above the standard, an outlier, since that is considered quite challenging amongst 5.3 students but perhaps your experience is otherwise.

I think I kissed my own ass a little too far. I am still doing the mathsonline task for it and will read the textbook a little later. Currently My circle geometry is little more than a few basic circle geometry rules.

You are probably right though

 

[TheGoingGetsTough]

Nope; 5.3 is pretty much the prep course for getting into advanced math, similar to the way you can't do extension 1 or 2 without advanced.

A lot of the content covered in 5.3 sets the basis for doing advanced math. At my school, no 5.2 students got into advanced, and many of those who were in 5.3 and did get into advanced dropped to standard, because it is ADVANCED math; it's meant to be difficult.

Also, many teachers will go out of their way to get their 5.3 kids ahead and ready for adv/ext. My year 10 math teacher (who took my class into year 11 and 12) did logs (adv) and polys (ext) with us, and our year 10 yearly exam had HSC questions in there.

Don't doubt what the teachers are doing. If they aren't letting some kids in, it may well be because they may not be able to meet the expectations required of them in adv and ext. In the end, the teachers are the ones who 1) know the course 2) know the kids ability/potential 3) have the experience to make the judgement. Yes, it is unfortunate for some of your classmates but...it's best to just make the most of the situation and see how you go.

I am definitely not doubting what my teachers are saying. They have given me many warnings about doing Advance and Extension and I take them all to heart. My main problem is that only the students that are doing extension get advance. Some students who have tried really hard ever since the beginning of the year to advance got screwed over. Now doing engineering is going to be much harder for them

 

[may22]

I am definitely not doubting what my teachers are saying. They have given me many warnings about doing Advance and Extension and I take them all to heart. My main problem is that only the students that are doing extension get advance. Some students who have tried really hard ever since the beginning of the year to advance got screwed over. Now doing engineering is going to be much harder for them

Hmm, yeah that makes sense. Maybe, if worse comes to worst, they can take a shot at doing a bridging course

 

[ExtremelyBoredUser]

Nope; 5.3 is pretty much the prep course for getting into advanced math, similar to the way you can't do extension 1 or 2 without advanced.

A lot of the content covered in 5.3 sets the basis for doing advanced math. At my school, no 5.2 students got into advanced, and many of those who were in 5.3 and did get into advanced dropped to standard, because it is ADVANCED math; it's meant to be difficult.

Also, many teachers will go out of their way to get their 5.3 kids ahead and ready for adv/ext. My year 10 math teacher (who took my class into year 11 and 12) did logs (adv) and polys (ext) with us, and our year 10 yearly exam had HSC questions in there.

Don't doubt what the teachers are doing. If they aren't letting some kids in, it may well be because they may not be able to meet the expectations required of them in adv and ext. In the end, the teachers are the ones who 1) know the course 2) know the kids ability/potential 3) have the experience to make the judgement. Yes, it is unfortunate for some of your classmates but...it's best to just make the most of the situation and see how you go.

Can agree. My math faculty places combinatorics first to cull most Ext 1 students early on, might be a bit brutal as a starting topic but it definitely engages the top/hard working students. Many 5.2 students have dropped to Standard either because they lack the skill/commitment to do it OR they want more time on their other subjects.

Imo, Advanced starts off where 5.2 left off with algebra/indices then to quadratics, discriminant, functions then basic trig so in a theoretical sense it is made for keen 5.2 students. However in reality, only top 5.2 students stay in the class and they are usually in the bottom or middle of the class since they compete with 5.3 students doing ext as well (which regularly demotivates such students leading to drop)




Source; NESA Syllabus Mathematics

 

[ExtremelyBoredUser]

I think I kissed my own ass a little too far. I am still doing the mathsonline task for it and will read the textbook a little later. Currently My circle geometry is little more than a few basic circle geometry rules.

You are probably right though

Having a good understanding of geometry will do heaps of wonders when your class does Vectors or Complex Numbers (if you do X2) since a lot of people struggle with the geometry aspect since its no longer part of the syllabus - coming from someone who barely learnt circle geo in year 10.

 

[may22]

Having a good understanding of geometry will do heaps of wonders when your class does Vectors or Complex Numbers (if you do X2) since a lot of people struggle with the geometry aspect since its no longer part of the syllabus - coming from someone who barely learnt circle geo in year 10.

Also comes in handy for maxima/minima in advanced. You have no idea what question they’ll throw at you, and it’s fun to put together an equation based off the shape/diagram and figure out the answer

 

[Eagle Mum]

This problem (of students being blocked from doing higher stage 6 maths levels based on stage 5 content) comes up frequently. It’s a travesty that keen students are blocked from learning. Are there bridging courses (eg. at coaching colleges) that can enable these students to take the Advanced course in Yr 11. Term 4 of Yr 10 and the long holidays between Yr 10 & 11 might be sufficient for very motivated students to cover the gap between 5.2 and 5.3. Someone really ought to offer it - if not, sounds like a potential business opportunity...

 

[ExtremelyBoredUser]

This problem (of students being blocked from doing higher stage 6 maths levels based on stage 5 content) comes up frequently. It’s a travesty that keen students are blocked from learning. Are there bridging courses (eg. at coaching colleges) that can enable these students to take the Advanced course in Yr 11. Term 4 of Yr 10 and the long holidays between Yr 10 & 11 might be sufficient for very motivated students to cover the gap between 5.2 and 5.3. Someone really ought to offer it - if not, sounds like a potential business opportunity...

I'm pretty sure students can attend the USYD Bridging Course every January, regardless whether they're going to uni next year or not. Pretty sure you have to pay for the course, if they don't get into advanced and still want to learn extension on their own?

Faculty of Science - The University of Sydney

I doubt coaching colleges have specialised services for this since it seems really niche but I'm pretty sure private tutors can address this and get them up to speed.