2007 Federal Election - Coalition or Labor/Howard or Rudd? (4 Viewers)

[Stott Despoja]

the idea of happiness now (for the chardonnay mcmansion owners) comes through tax cuts and unashamed capatilism on the whole...

Chardonnay mcmansion owners. We have a new political term, people.

I guess that's why Rudd's pushing his whole 'fiscal conservative line' - and that is not a bad idea at all - trying to distance himself from the brash, irresponsible economic image generated by howard (and latham to a degree).

Howard is considered to be brash and irresponsible when it comes to the economy?

I think that you'll find that the fiscal conservative line is meant to suggest that much like Mr Howard, Mr Rudd will be able to manage the economy. It's more of the same, in other words, so there's no reason to fear the ALP this time around. That's the idea, anyway.

 

[wce06]

Smith believed that the invisible hand would somehow sort society out, but I believe that that's impossible when everyone has to be greedy and fiercly competitive in order to survive comfortably.
Surveys suggest that people would rather be taxed more, if it means better services. Europe taxes madly in exchange for civilisation. They have capitalism right.

I agree with you completely in that higher taxes and a greater level of govt role/intervention leads to a far better society in terms of education, health, happiness for ALL....but I just don't think that Australian's (particularly WA voters - I lived in Perth until '05) see things that way. It is still very much about market-based competition and blocking out adversaries. How else could have Howard won 4 elections?

 

[jb_nc]

Re: 2007 Federal Election - Coalition or Labor/Howard or Beazley?

No. Labor opposed Iraq.
Rudd is on record saying Saddam is a bad man and has weapons.

Acknowledging he is a bad man with weapons capable of large scale damage and then not doing anything about it. Hmm...

Chardonnay mcmansion owners. We have a new political term, people.

I thought it was Chardonnay socialists.

 

[jb_nc]

No it doesnt. They're not happy at all. They're greedy because the system demands them to be.
You see, people lost faith in government a long time ago. As a result, the government practically told society to run things themselves by privatising and throwing people's money back in their faces. Therefore we compete with eachother to gain the money which buys the things government used to supply.
Smith believed that the invisible hand would somehow sort society out, but I believe that that's impossible when everyone has to be greedy and fiercly competitive in order to survive comfortably.
Surveys suggest that people would rather be taxed more, if it means better services. Europe taxes madly in exchange for civilisation. They have capitalism right.

Europe: Economic facts of life
Giles Merritt International Herald Tribune

Europe's economies are in the doldrums, and no one seems to know how to revive them. For all the brave talk of new policies to promote industrial innovation, the malaise seems to be getting worse. Unemployment remains persistently high, especially in Germany, and the weak growth rates of recent years are threatening to stall and plunge Europe into recession.​

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/16/opinion/edmerritt.php

Yes, 'capitalism right'.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

The point is that the market economy hasn't, and never will, give people the happiness they really want; it's actually counter-productive to it. Saying this will no doubt give Ruddy some points.

What do we really want?

(and which party will give it to me?)

 

[wce06]

I guess that's why Rudd's pushing his whole 'fiscal conservative line' - and that is not a bad idea at all - trying to distance himself from the brash, irresponsible economic image generated by howard (and latham to a degree).

Howard is considered to be brash and irresponsible when it comes to the economy?

I think that you'll find that the fiscal conservative line is meant to suggest that much like Mr Howard, Mr Rudd will be able to manage the economy. It's more of the same, in other words, so there's no reason to fear the ALP this time around. That's the idea, anyway.

Sorry, that wasn't phrased properly. I meant that Howard generated the idea of ALP being "brash, irresponsible" economically (not helped by Latham - especially the brashness). I needed a new sentence there.

 

[Stott Despoja]

Sorry, that wasn't phrased properly. I meant that Howard generated the idea of ALP being "brash, irresponsible" economically (not helped by Latham - especially the brashness). I needed a new sentence there.

Thanks for the clarification .

 

[Iron]

Pfft you're still thinking in neo-liberal greedy terms. Sure unemployment may be high, but they treat them with dignity. We're talking about society not the market.
But their measurments are probably more honest than ours. We actually have a big problem of underemployment (1hr a week means youre employed in our figures)

 

[Iron]

What do we really want?

(and which party will give it to me?)

harhar.
We want time, essentially, to devote to our real priorities in life - especially non-material ones.

 

[jb_nc]

How many people do you know are working one hour per week? Zero?

 

[wce06]

Pfft you're still thinking in neo-liberal greedy terms. Sure unemployment may be high, but they treat them with dignity. We're talking about society not the market.
But their measurments are probably more honest than ours. We actually have a big problem of underemployment (1hr a week means youre employed in our figures)

All I'm saying is that to be realistic in today's Australia, we have to acknowledge that the majority see low unemployment as the best signal for an economy, and therefore a country. I think that Rudd's team recognises this, and so are doing the best they can (whilst still sticking to the unions) to present themselves this way.

Hopefully, Australia will see that this philosophy has been taken too far, and has been extended to every aspect of Australian society, rather than just Australia's economy in the need to compete with the global market.

btw, underemployment actually refers to under-employing in terms of skills, eg a person with a medical degree being a janitor.

 

[jb_nc]

btw, underemployment actually refers to under-employing in terms of skills, eg a person with a medical degree being a janitor.

"Underemployment" and "hidden unemployment" are interchangeable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underemployment#Underemployment_defined_as_underuse_of_employed_workers

 

[frog12986]

Absolutely right Iron. The French treat their population with the dignity and respect they deserve, in an effort to dissolve the economic tensions that exist. Yet for some reason, there still seems to be a level of social unrest that surpasses anything seen in Australia for many many years.

This whole notion that Europe, despite its economic woes, places society above the economy is rubbish. Social prosperity is derived from economic prosperity, and ultimately the capacity of government to deal with societal issues in a fiscal sense, is reliant upon the maintenence of economic certainty, prosperity and development.

 

[Iron]

My Europe is Scandinavia, Germany, Holland...

The debate is that the drive for economic prosperity has some how thrown society /pause/ out the back door /thumb over shoulder/
Id agree that social cohesion has certainly suffered from neo-liberalism, and that's not likely to change. But neo-liberalism was a reaction to a variety of other events, so isnt specifically the root cause.
Because virtually none of us have lived to see a different society, let alone government, it's hard to argue. I conceed that

 

[WWJD_2005]

The debate is that the drive for economic prosperity has some how thrown society /pause/ out the back door /thumb over shoulder/

Hey you could be PM.

 

[jb_nc]

If you want the Commonwealth to use its powers to shift the to become more equal, I don't know why you expect Labor to do anything. Rudd has tried to paint himself as a "fiscal convservative" so he's not going to be spending any money on trying to create better social outcomes.

If you want a welfare state vote Greens, that way you can smoke as much ice as you want, bugger as many men in front of your adopted children as you want and be paid to do it.

 

[bshoc]

The Greens are a disgrace to humanity.

Stupid hippies, paychecks are for workers.

 

[Raginsheep]

Absolutely right Iron. The French treat their population with the dignity and respect they deserve, in an effort to dissolve the economic tensions that exist. Yet for some reason, there still seems to be a level of social unrest that surpasses anything seen in Australia for many many years.

This whole notion that Europe, despite its economic woes, places society above the economy is rubbish. Social prosperity is derived from economic prosperity, and ultimately the capacity of government to deal with societal issues in a fiscal sense, is reliant upon the maintenence of economic certainty, prosperity and development.

I don't know too much about France so correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the country just pretty much shove most of its lower class immigrants into massive public housing projects trying to pretend that they don't exist?

 

[jb_nc]

I don't know too much about France so correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the country just pretty much shove most of its lower class immigrants into massive public housing projects trying to pretend that they don't exist?

Um, no one forces the immigrants to move into the slums of Paris or Marseilles, they move there to be surrounded by, surprise, other immigrants.

 

[Sparcod]

The Greens are a disgrace to humanity.

Stupid hippies, paychecks are for workers.

Did you support the Christian Democrats in the state election?