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A Bill of Rights for Australia? (1 Viewer)

banco55

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

Snaykew said:
Bill of rights could legalise racism, could it not?
Hate speech type laws in America are unconstitutional and I don't think the level of racism is worse than comparable countries. Also depends what you define as racism. Criticizing Islam shouldn't be classed as racism but could be illegal under some European laws.
 

_dhj_

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

banco55 said:
Hate speech type laws in America are unconstitutional and I don't think the level of racism is worse than comparable countries. Also depends what you define as racism. Criticizing Islam shouldn't be classed as racism but could be illegal under some European laws.
Not everything has something to do with criticism of Islam... :confused:
 

davin

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

well, i think the bill of rights is intended to create some laws that are difficult to easily change. in the american system, its pretty feasible to change a law, just needs majority support in the proper body, the national congress for anything thats federal. however, to change the bill of rights congress has to support it, as well as a majority of the states, or majorities from each of the states. the idea is that rights that are in it are much harder to remove or ammend.
 

banco55

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

_dhj_ said:
Not everything has something to do with criticism of Islam... :confused:
Actually you'll find in Europe (and other western countries) Islam and its adherents seem to be strangely omnipresent in free speech debates. It's like the elephant in the room.
 
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withoutaface

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

Snaykew said:
Bill of rights could legalise racism, could it not?
And? If I want to call you a filthyjewniggeramericotrashgook why should the law stop me?
 

_dhj_

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

withoutaface said:
And? If I want to call you a filthyjewniggeramericotrashgook why should the law stop me?
Because the law exists not only to protect your rights, but the rights of others. In using racial slurs to refer to another, you might violate their right to be free from racial discrimination, if it is determined that that right exists.
 

withoutaface

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

There is no such right. If there was a right not to be offended I wouldn't be allowed to tell someone their tie looks stupid, that I disagree with their religious beliefs, or that the rate of rape among Lebanese is twice that among those born in Australia.
 

_dhj_

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

withoutaface said:
There is no such right. If there was a right not to be offended I wouldn't be allowed to tell someone their tie looks stupid, that I disagree with their religious beliefs, or that the rate of rape among Lebanese is twice that among those born in Australia.
That is true, but whether the racial slur is deemed legitimate also depends on the scale on which it is delivered. A television program rubbishing muslim beliefs, for example, might be deemed to be inciting violence or hatred against and by muslims. It goes back to the old analogy of yelling fire in a crowded place.
 

banco55

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

_dhj_ said:
That is true, but whether the racial slur is deemed legitimate also depends on the scale on which it is delivered. A television program rubbishing muslim beliefs, for example, might be deemed to be inciting violence or hatred against and by muslims. It goes back to the old analogy of yelling fire in a crowded place.
You should be able to say whatever you want about a religion and its adherents. If you start saying "go to their church and burn it to the ground" that's covered by other laws. If you say that in the US for example that would be threatening behaivour. Anything apart from threatening violence is fair game.
 
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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

erawamai said:
Who is and who isn't a 'douche' is a subjective judgment and probably couldn't be put into any document as you infer.
Which is exactly why we don't have broad protections such as those found in a Bill of Rights, because it doesn't alow people to use their descretion in kicking those up the arse who need a good kick up the arse.

Those who don't deserve to be abused, aren't. Those that do deserve to be abused, by and large aren't. There is no need to introduce a mechanism which bluntly protects an individual whilst putting the community as a whole at a disadvantage.

I hate people like you. You have no allegiance to Australia. And he who has no allegiance to the king should not have power to put words in his mouth.
 

_dhj_

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

AM said:
I hate people like you. You have no allegiance to Australia. And he who has no allegiance to the king should not have power to put words in his mouth.
Last time I checked we have a queen rather than a king.
 

davin

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

_dhj_ said:
Because the law exists not only to protect your rights, but the rights of others. In using racial slurs to refer to another, you might violate their right to be free from racial discrimination, if it is determined that that right exists.
we've covered before, though, that that opens a can of worms. because saying something racist doesn't actually cause measurable harm to someone, and if you just make it things that offend someone, you have an issue in that others will be offended by the very law you're proposing to not offend people.
 

withoutaface

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

_dhj_ said:
That is true, but whether the racial slur is deemed legitimate also depends on the scale on which it is delivered. A television program rubbishing muslim beliefs, for example, might be deemed to be inciting violence or hatred against and by muslims. It goes back to the old analogy of yelling fire in a crowded place.
That depends on whether you believe that tolerance can be legislated or not.
 

wheredanton

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

TerrbleSpellor said:
I hate people like you. You have no allegiance to Australia. And he who has no allegiance to the king should not have power to put words in his mouth.
What a wonderful example of a bright young human being.
 

Snaykew

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Re: Bill of Rights in Oz

Well, if you want to allow violence, I think it may lead to violence against racial groups. Why not have a united society? Unless of course you only want a bill of rights just to be racist.
 

Generator

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A Human Rights Act for Australia

Campaign for human rights act

Campaign for human rights act
Kenneth Nguyen
August 12, 2006



GOUGH Whitlam is expected to unite with his former political foe Malcolm Fraser to campaign for a federal human rights act.

The campaign is being led by the former education minister under Bob Hawke, Susan Ryan, who said yesterday that a human rights act could be on Federal Parliament's agenda by the end of the year.

[continued - see link]
What are your thoughts? Is Australia in need of a Human Rights Act?

---

At this month's meeting of the Standing Committee of Attorneys-General, federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock indicated that he would oppose any push for a human rights act.
Philip Ruddock still wears his Amnesty badge, doesn't he?
 
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Re: A Human Rights Act for Australia

Hasn't there already been a thread on this?

I'm pretty sure there has, because i said:

"No tolerant society needs a human rights act, no intolerant one should ever be oppressed by one".. to which i remember erawamai saying that i quoted some high/federal court judge, which i did.

Edit: yes,

http://community.boredofstudies.org.../bill-rights-oz.html?highlight=bill+of+rights

meh, my original idea still stands.
 

Generator

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Re: A Human Rights Act for Australia

Captain� Obvious said:
Hasn't there already been a thread on this?

I'm pretty sure there has, because i said:

"No tolerant society needs a human rights act, no intolerant one should ever be oppressed by one".. to which i remember erawamai saying that i quoted some high/federal court judge, which i did.

Edit: yes,

http://community.boredofstudies.org.../bill-rights-oz.html?highlight=bill+of+rights

meh, my original idea still stands.
Thanks, I knew that such a thread existed but I didn't know just how long ago it was created (and I didn't even think to search for the phrase "bill of rights").

Threads merged.
 

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These are my notes on arguments for and against a Bill of Rights from my Public Law classes in 2004. I'm pretty sure I filched them from one of Justice Kirby's speeches. They are however a good summary of the issues and may help in guiding this debate.


Arguments Against

Against Australian Tradition
The basic concept of our society is that all people enjoy full rights to do whatever they like unless such rights are lawfully taken away from them. The argument is that because parliamentary democracy usually works reasonably enough we can trust the legislators. If they act unjustly we can remove them through elections.

It would politicize the courts
A Bill of Rights could politicize the Courts because it would shift significant power from elected representatives to judges. This is an obvious concern because judges are not elected. Additionally the common law would prevail over Parliament's statutes and would need a constitutional amendment to change any rule introduced.

It would limit rights
A Bill of Rights would require pushing complicated problems into artificially limited categories. The language would expressly state, and thereby confine basic rights of the people. Furthermore the duties of people are arguably just as important as the rights of people.

Difference Among Regions
A bill of rights would endanger the variety of social regulation. Human variety is an important feature of nature and freedom.

It May Become Outdated
It is unlikely that an Australian bill of rights would be able to cover and cope with all of the issues of basic rights which may arise in the future. It is safer to leave these to Parliament to be dealt with as the need arises.

Similarly a bill of rights might entrench attitudes to rights which become out of date with changing times or new technology. For example it imposed on the United States a protection of the possession of weapons “the right to bear arms” which is completely unsuitable in today’s standards.

Judges are Sufficient
A further argument is that judges are already introducing basic rights into the common law, by the principle which has been approved in Mabo. If a statute is ambiguous, or if there is a gap in the common law, it is now accepted that a judge may have regard to the international jurisprudence of human rights.

Legislative Alternatives
A better way to protect basic rights is by the enactment of specific legislation. Such legislation can typically be expressed in far greater detail and specificity, and can be changed if required.

Erosion of the Constitution
Our society has a much higher protection of basic rights than most of the countries of the world. This is so despite the fact that virtually every other country has a constitution with bill of rights provisions. This proves that elected parliamentary democracy is a better protection for human rights.

Expensive
A Bill of Rights would be very expensive given the amount of litigation it would generate.


Arguments For

Problems of democracy
Often democracy works imperfectly. It may overlook the rights of minorities and fundamental principles such as the independence of the judiciary or the rule of law.

Law is Political Anyway
The courts are the third branch of government – they are already involved in politics, although not usually party politics. What we need is recognition of the political nature of the judicial branch of government and a method to ensure that judges protect the basic rights of the people above party politics.

Parliament’s Inactivity
Parliament often avoids difficult problems, leaving them to be solved by the courts. It has often been left to the courts to protect and advance basic rights, as in Mabo, where the High Court reversed the terra nullius mythology that had been a parasite of Australian law since “settlement”. It is important that judges are provided with the power to determine difficult questions which Parliament neglects. A bill of rights would give them this power.

Judicial Power is Limited
Judges are not always able or willing to invoke legal principles to protect basic rights. Judges must obey the laws and impose the rules established by or under Parliament. They must do so if those laws are clear and applicable, even if fundamental human rights are breached.

Education
It is important to include in the constitution a statement of basic rights and duties as citizens to provide a means of educating people. It will offer a constitutional reference point and contribute to national identity.

Ensuring the legitimacy of the people
Judges introducing human rights into common law and legislators enacting laws based upon international human rights instruments lack the legitimacy of democracy. A charter of human rights should be accepted and endorsed by the people.

Empowering the powerless
There are people in the community whose rights get denied or overlooked, such as Aboriginal people, women, gays, the disabled, ethnic minorities and children. A bill of rights would allow such people to assert and uphold their rights.

Australia is out of touch with the international community
Australia is one of a small minority of nations which has rejected having a Bill of Rights. It would bring Australia into line with the rest of the world and meet our international obligations.
 

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