a few questions... (1 Viewer)

[cricketfan10]

hey guys, im considering law and there were a few questions i wanted to ask...

1) i know it involves heaps of reading, you need to be good at english, participation, speaking etc. but, say if you were OK as in average or just above average at those skills, would it be bad idea to take it up? i mean, if you're decent, you can always improve on these skills as you do the course right?

2) there are some people i've read saying that law is crap, involves a lot of stress and stuff like that. why is it that people say this? and i have to say i havent read anyone say that it's very fulfilling yet either.
for example i was reading the law guide and i read this bit...

• Is law glamourous?

Law student Santaslayer says:
Quote:
Hell no. You end up working like a dog. I can't say that's glammy in any way whatsoever. Interesting work, yes. Glamorous? Not really. Since you can't really be 'rich' if you work in Australia. Maybe if you work in HK or America.

I do enjoy the false perception though.

now im not expecting it to be full on glamorous or anything. but is this guy exaggerating when he says 'you end up working like a dog'? i dont mind working hard, but i dont want to drive myself to the ground.

3) this is probably my main Q ive been here in aus for about 5 years now, of indian descent. twice today, the point was raised that people were more likely to choose a guy with a more common last name like a 'smith' (no racism/offence intended, just quoting my friends) than someone like me (not going to give out my last name here but you can just assume its a typical indian surname) when they want someone to fight their case. also, one of them said it was a 'white man's law' (again, quoting exactly what my friend said). now at first i thought this was ridiculous, but im not so sure anymore, i dont have any relatives who have gone into law...its either IT, med, accounting and the like so yeah that's why the doubts. can i have people's thoughts on this?

would reallyy appreciate it if i could get these questions answered. thnx

 

[MaryJane]

1) i know it involves heaps of reading, you need to be good at english, participation, speaking etc. but, say if you were OK as in average or just above average at those skills, would it be bad idea to take it up? i mean, if you're decent, you can always improve on these skills as you do the course right?

Yes, I do think you can improve and build your skills in these areas. You do have to... enjoy or at least deal with a lot of reading and pulling it all apart and putting it back together. Presentation I don't think is a major issue and is definitely a skill that you develop at uni, regardless of your degree.

2) there are some people i've read saying that law is crap, involves a lot of stress and stuff like that. why is it that people say this? and i have to say i havent read anyone say that it's very fulfilling yet either.

It isn't a cruisy degree; law students are probably more stressed than the average uni student (unless your degree is LLB + actuarial studies). But it is not crap.. well, I don't think it is. There isn't any chance of me actually practising law (like about half of all law students nowadays), but it is extremely adventageous degree to have: its the "new arts". I guess its fulfilling to the extent that you do come to love it; I find myself defending the legal system and getting quite heated when people don't understand/accurately represent the law. It is my baby

3) this is probably my main Q ive been here in aus for about 5 years now, of indian descent. twice today, the point was raised that people were more likely to choose a guy with a more common last name like a 'smith' (no racism/offence intended, just quoting my friends) than someone like me (not going to give out my last name here but you can just assume its a typical indian surname) when they want someone to fight their case. also, one of them said it was a 'white man's law' (again, quoting exactly what my friend said). now at first i thought this was ridiculous, but im not so sure anymore, i dont have any relatives who have gone into law...its either IT, med, accounting and the like so yeah that's why the doubts. can i have people's thoughts on this?

Having worked with international students and employers, the most important question here is: Are you an Australian citizen? If you are, you're set; there is no reason why you shouldn't be hired as a solicitor in Australia. Particularly in those (smaller) firms out there that are bilingual... not saying that you'd only get offers from such firms, but what I am saying is that it can give you a head start when it comes to getting a paralegal position throughout your degree.

If you only have PR then you're pretty much stuffed, to be totally honest... unless you can fix that (ie. obtain citizenship) before your 4th year.

Regarding your surname, I don't think you'd have any more problems getting an interview than Aussies out there who have strongly European names - like me! The Indian community is large, much like the Chinese community, so I think that it is just becomming the norm.

HTH

 

[circusmind]

1.) Law is a cruel mistress. Law school is glamorous only in the most illusory way. That HD you pull against all odds will make you feel like a god, but behind it is hundreds of hours of brute work. There is nothing sexy about 10hr days at the law library. If you are content to cruise through and pass law school, then you can live like a normal uni student. On the other hand, if you are ambitious and driven you will work like a dog. Law will be like boot camp for you. It will destroy you and build you up again stronger, smarter and with a startling caffeine dependency. You will go from thinking you are a genius to thinking you are an imbecile in a matter of hours, and then back again. Good law students and lawyers will tell you they love the law. Be aware that this is Stockholhm Syndrome.

Go to law school only if you think that you might have a passion for law. If you do not, don't bother. I love studying law. It's a bastard, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

2.) Your race will be as big or as small a factor in your employment as in any other professional career. Might I suggest that you would do well not to work for racists in any case? I don't think this will be a problem in 2008.

3.) I wish it was a white man's law. In fact, though, I keep getting pipped for HDs by people considerably more pigmented than me.

Australian law and Indian law are both based on common law, anyway.

 

[cricketfan10]

thanks guys thats helped heaps. ^i like how you said i should go if i think i might have a passion for it, atm i reckon i would...or atleast, im not interested in any other course as much as i am with this.

@maryjane: yeah im applying for citizenship this year infact, so i guess i should be good after all. thanks for the reply

just got a few more follow up questions

1) i know i said i might have a passion for this...but its basically because i prefer reading (and apparently it involves a lot) over doing anything science or maths related. i remember reading somewhere that it'd be an advantage for you if you were good at science and maths subjects because law involves being able to analyse information. how much of this is true? i despise subjects like chem, bio, maths and physics...would this be an indicator that law isn't for me?

2) so its not an easy degree, in terms of work anyway. but would any of you guys know how its like after you finish? once you get employed by a firm or something, does it get easier, or even harder still?

3) and this is for circusmind...or anyone who's doing arts/law at ANU because thats what im looking at... how's the art component of the degree? what electives (?) are you taking and are they good or would you rather do others?
oh and finally, what college do you live in? if you do ofcourse

thnx again guys, much appreciated

 

[subdued123]

Hi Cricketfan, all the best for your studies and good luck.

Can I make one suggestion - don't listen so much to everybody who says that law is so bad blah blah blah.

It has become almost de rigeur, stereotypical, of law students to complain about how hard law is.

May I say the following

1. Law pays very, very well. Being realistic, it is one of the professions where one can make a lot of money.

2. Studying law is hard, but no harder than engineering or nursing. or very much else, for that matter. Law just attracts type-A personalities who are perfectionists and love feeling sorry for themselves.'

3. People in law work hard, but so do people in factories. Except in law, when you work hard, you get big bonuses, your dinner is delivered to you, and you a taxiride home. And your harbour views don't hurt. Let's face it - in today's world, EVERYONE WORKS HARD. Nothing good came easy.

4. law can take you globally.

5. People with law degrees can reach the upper echelons of society - prime minister, judge, premier of NSW (Morris iemma has one), company director.


I am getting sick of all the whingers. it's almost like a badge of honour - "oh look at me, i am a poor little law student".

People need to get real. And I bet you still, someone is going to get up and say "oh yea, but Investment banking pays more" - of course it does. But if it's only IB that pays more, you're certainly not going to be poor.

So good luck, Cricketfan, ignore the haters. I just found circusmind's post to be a typical, navel-gazing rant.

I have a healthy life, I never slaved away in a library, (and I know many others) and I have a great job in the law at a good firm. And good-looking people do it.

 

[MaryJane]

Can I make one suggestion - don't listen so much to everybody who says that law is so bad blah blah blah.

It has become almost de rigeur, stereotypical, of law students to complain about how hard law is.

...

I am getting sick of all the whingers. it's almost like a badge of honour - "oh look at me, i am a poor little law student".

I just found circusmind's post to be a typical, navel-gazing rant.

:uhhuh: Couldn't agree more! And well said. I'm in my final year and I remember when it was 'cool' to complain about law, calling it a 'horrible bitch' et al. I never bought into that; its what you make of it. I can think of much more difficult, tedious degrees...

5. People with law degrees can reach the upper echelons of society - prime minister, judge, premier of NSW (Morris iemma has one), company director.

Even Deal or No Deal man (O'Keefe or whatever his name is) has an LLB! He even practised for a while I believe.

1) i know i said i might have a passion for this...but its basically because i prefer reading (and apparently it involves a lot) over doing anything science or maths related. i remember reading somewhere that it'd be an advantage for you if you were good at science and maths subjects because law involves being able to analyse information. how much of this is true? i despise subjects like chem, bio, maths and physics...would this be an indicator that law isn't for me?

I've never heard this before. If it were true (and it obviously isn't) I would've bombed out a long time ago! Analysis in physics is completely different to analysing and constructing an argument around the written word. So don't worry about this; it seems like a load of crap to me

 

[Cookie182]

And good-looking people do it.

This point can not be stressed enough. Believe me ive made observations across facultes and at the end of the day, law students are a great looking bunch of people.

Furthermore, as subdued point out, its not law that is hard its uni in general. Law slaves you with reading however it rewards you with less contact hours (ie half hour to an hour lectures). Some subjects ie science based have lik 3 hr lectures plus 3 labs/practicals and believe me physics/maths/engineering are all incredibly challenging as well. Ive had no experience in arts but i know that at times even comerce gets draining, so don't base your selection on percieved difficulty as this varies considerably based on a number of factors.

 

[cricketfan10]

less contact hours
good looking girls
potentially high pay
no requirement of good science/math brain

couldn't really ask for much more going in my favour think im going to do it after all.

now i just have to decide b/w ANU (moving out of home and from melb) or Monash..

thanks for all the replies guys

 

[circusmind]

So good luck, Cricketfan, ignore the haters. I just found circusmind's post to be a typical, navel-gazing rant.

I would have thought the hyperbole was obvious? Perhaps not.

Law school is awesome, I love it. It is a bastard at times, but it's totally worth it if that's where your passion lies. I don't think I'd be being a typical self-pitying law nerd if I said not to touch a law degree with a ten foot pole if you aren't really interested in it? I've seen heaps of people crash and burn and it's ugly, especially as these are highly intelligent people. I just think the law is one of those things that you need a passion for. It's five years of your life, after all.

If you are interested, it's not half as difficult as people make out, but if you aren't, it can be pretty tough.

Cricketfan:

It's impossible to generalise about how well the B.A is taught--there are a myriad of majors you can take in the BA and hundreds of courses. I'm doing Pols/International Relations and a language. Pols/IR is obviously one of the faculties that ANU prides itself on, and I've found the courses I've taken to be excellent, on the whole. Learning a language is probably one of the best things you can do in an Arts degree. One major advantage for a new student (especially if you're not a local) is that if you do a language, especially a less popular one (i.e. not Spanish), you will be with largely the same people throughout your degree, and classes tend to be informal tutes. This is a great way to make some good friends early on.

Don't view the second degree just as a sidekick to your LLB. You can really get heaps out of that second degree. Think exchanges, internships (see: ANIP) etc etc. I'm loving my Arts so much that I'm thinking of stretching my interminable double-degree another year to do Honours.

What sort of majors were you interested in?

 

[circusmind]

I've never heard this before. If it were true (and it obviously isn't) I would've bombed out a long time ago! Analysis in physics is completely different to analysing and constructing an argument around the written word. So don't worry about this; it seems like a load of crap to me

Agreed. People love to compare law to any number of other disciplines. Bonus points to my latin teacher in high school for telling me that continuing on with her subject would be great for a law degree later on. I've also heard English, Maths, Science, Languages, Chess etc. Load of crap, really.

Law is essentially a verbal/textual discipline, but the sort of reasoning it uses is unique. You will be taught how to think like a lawyer at uni--that's why you go!

 

[melsc]

1) i know it involves heaps of reading, you need to be good at english, participation, speaking etc. but, say if you were OK as in average or just above average at those skills, would it be bad idea to take it up? i mean, if you're decent, you can always improve on these skills as you do the course right?

All law subjects are aimed at teaching these skills and the first few subjects are skills based. Yes these skills can be learnt but you also have to want to learn! You don't need to be fantastic at speaking, reading or writing, it all comes from practice.

2) there are some people i've read saying that law is crap, involves a lot of stress and stuff like that. why is it that people say this? and i have to say i havent read anyone say that it's very fulfilling yet either.

now im not expecting it to be full on glamorous or anything. but is this guy exaggerating when he says 'you end up working like a dog'? i dont mind working hard, but i dont want to drive myself to the ground.

Yes it is stressful, yes it it hard and you do work like a dog. What it comes down to it is, is it what you want to do. Its a long slog so you need to want to do it to stick it out. It can fulfilling, challenging and sometimes fun but you don't get the prestige and perception without the hard work. Its worth it if its what you want but its not for those just in it for the prestige or for people to ohh and ahhh. It also depends what you want out of it, because I am abitious I work 16hrs a week at barristers chambers, moot and do other extracirculars to try and separate myself from the pack this makes it seem like I work quite hard.

3) this is probably my main Q ive been here in aus for about 5 years now, of indian descent. twice today, the point was raised that people were more likely to choose a guy with a more common last name like a 'smith' (no racism/offence intended, just quoting my friends) than someone like me (not going to give out my last name here but you can just assume its a typical indian surname) when they want someone to fight their case. also, one of them said it was a 'white man's law' (again, quoting exactly what my friend said). now at first i thought this was ridiculous, but im not so sure anymore, i dont have any relatives who have gone into law...its either IT, med, accounting and the like so yeah that's why the doubts. can i have people's thoughts on this?

There are lots of people at my uni of all races in law. Whilst law used to be predominantly a white mans business its not any more, think about it people of all races and gender are going through law school and get jobs. At the barristers office I work at there are women and men of many races. I wouldn't worry about this at all.

 

[BradM]

Nowadays i'd say that the more switched on firms are well aware of the "old white men" industry stereotype and it's detrimental effects (i.e. on their attempts to hire the best / brightest of law students). Such a recognition has, imho, resulted in a situation where firms are eager to highlight their non-discriminatory, equal opportunity, "diverse" programs and initiatives offered. While this cliche may still ring true in the 'magic circle' UK firms and 'white shoe / ivy league' US firms, Australian firms seem to be a little more willing to move with the times on this front.

 

[neo o]

If you know how to study properly it's easy to consistently pull anything from high credits to distinctions. The people who tend to over-stress and burn themselves out in law, particularly in first year, are killing themselves because they are reading 30 odd cases a week. If you decide to do law, remember just to focus your reading on key cases and just learn the general legal principles arising out of each. I've pulled distinctions in law subjects after literally teaching myself the course in a few days. I can't imagine doing that in any other subject except for humanities. Law is easy, unless you want high distinctions, in which case good luck to you.

 

[cricketfan10]

I would have thought the hyperbole was obvious? Perhaps not.

Law school is awesome, I love it. It is a bastard at times, but it's totally worth it if that's where your passion lies. I don't think I'd be being a typical self-pitying law nerd if I said not to touch a law degree with a ten foot pole if you aren't really interested in it? I've seen heaps of people crash and burn and it's ugly, especially as these are highly intelligent people. I just think the law is one of those things that you need a passion for. It's five years of your life, after all.

If you are interested, it's not half as difficult as people make out, but if you aren't, it can be pretty tough.

Cricketfan:

It's impossible to generalise about how well the B.A is taught--there are a myriad of majors you can take in the BA and hundreds of courses. I'm doing Pols/International Relations and a language. Pols/IR is obviously one of the faculties that ANU prides itself on, and I've found the courses I've taken to be excellent, on the whole. Learning a language is probably one of the best things you can do in an Arts degree. One major advantage for a new student (especially if you're not a local) is that if you do a language, especially a less popular one (i.e. not Spanish), you will be with largely the same people throughout your degree, and classes tend to be informal tutes. This is a great way to make some good friends early on.

Don't view the second degree just as a sidekick to your LLB. You can really get heaps out of that second degree. Think exchanges, internships (see: ANIP) etc etc. I'm loving my Arts so much that I'm thinking of stretching my interminable double-degree another year to do Honours.

What sort of majors were you interested in?

well i havent really thought about that yet too much, probably because i should get in first. but i was kinda thinking i should just choose a major that is easy to offset the amount of work i might have to do in law lol...so i had a quick glance and came across film studies, is that what i think it is? hah. tbh im not that interested in doing a language, tried in school but it just wasn't my thing. as you say it'd be a good idea, but there's probably no point if im not interested in it i suppose.
also, what's the deal with a lot of people choosing international relations as a major for their arts degree...besides the fact that it's one of ANU's strong points. is it going to be advantageous for me in terms of career options?

 

[cricketfan10]

If you know how to study properly it's easy to consistently pull anything from high credits to distinctions. The people who tend to over-stress and burn themselves out in law, particularly in first year, are killing themselves because they are reading 30 odd cases a week. If you decide to do law, remember just to focus your reading on key cases and just learn the general legal principles arising out of each. I've pulled distinctions in law subjects after literally teaching myself the course in a few days. I can't imagine doing that in any other subject except for humanities. Law is easy, unless you want high distinctions, in which case good luck to you.

aha, i can think of so many people in my school who would definitely not enjoy law then.
just thought of another Q - how much are all the courses you've done so far interconnected with each other? i could probably realize this for myself once/if i do it but i was wondering that say for example, you bomb out on one of the earlier (first yr) courses, is it likely that a course you do say, in your second year is going to be affected by your 'deficiencies' in the previous one? hope that made sense lol.

also, this is probably a stupid question...but are your career options affected purely by the amount of HD's you get or is there more to it?

--------

aand just one more thing, re: whether i would want to do law or not...im just going to put forward my situation and i was hoping if i could get some opinions on whether i was making the right decision.

first things first, i prefer (not really love as such though) english over pretty much any subject ive done at school. mostly because i havent had too much of a problem with the work requirement...with subjects like science and maths on the other hand im just sick of doing the same thing over and over again. also it doesn't give you any room to be creative or anything because you are stuck to whatever is written in the textbook/notes. with english i can have my own opinions and the like which is far more appealing to me.

secondly, i love arguing. altho i will admit im not that good at it verbally. by that i mean ive been on a fair few forums for a couple of years now (sports buff as you can tell by my name) and ive been involved in a lot of arguments...arguments that i reckon i've 'fought' (lol keyboard warrior!) pretty well & not left too many gaping holes in arguments and the like. i think that if i could get some practice in this area i do have the potential of becoming good at it. i would like to try it out anyway.

thirdly, reading > solving equations. & summarising ftw. i understand heaps more quicker when its something thats in in fairly simple english.

fourthly, public speaking. not exactly a strong forte of mine. but i am very willing to develop on this because i feel it will be immensely helpful to me in the future.

hmm yeah i think thats about it. pretty long post haha, would really appreciate if i could get responses. thanks for your help so far tho

 

[KFunk]

Law is essentially a verbal/textual discipline, but the sort of reasoning it uses is unique.

It always just struck me as normal logic with moral overtones.

 

[BradM]

just thought of another Q - how much are all the courses you've done so far interconnected with each other? i could probably realize this for myself once/if i do it but i was wondering that say for example, you bomb out on one of the earlier (first yr) courses, is it likely that a course you do say, in your second year is going to be affected by your 'deficiencies' in the previous one? hope that made sense lol.

The only subjects i'd say that this would be an issue for are the first few 'foundational subjects' such as Legal Research and Legal History (or similar). Otherwise, they are all pretty independent and compartmentalised. You won't suffer in say Contracts for getting a crap Torts mark and not really getting it.

 

[neo o]

just thought of another Q - how much are all the courses you've done so far interconnected with each other? i could probably realize this for myself once/if i do it but i was wondering that say for example, you bomb out on one of the earlier (first yr) courses, is it likely that a course you do say, in your second year is going to be affected by your 'deficiencies' in the previous one? hope that made sense lol.

The only subjects i'd say that this would be an issue for are the first few 'foundational subjects' such as Legal Research and Legal History (or similar). Otherwise, they are all pretty independent and compartmentalised. You won't suffer in say Contracts for getting a crap Torts mark and not really getting it.

I disagree. Alot of electives are based on core courses. For example, you'd want a good grasp of international law before trying international trade law or private international law or corporate law before trying takeovers and securities law. That isn't to say that you'll do badly in international trade law if you flunked international law, just that law courses are inextricably linked. You'll have bits of international law popping up in everything from Tax to Intellectual Property to Human Rights Law and Contract popping up in Corporations Law, Restitution, Equity and Labour Law. A good example of that would be a case called Hospital Products v US Surgical which popped up in Tax Law, Equity, Intellectual Property, Restitution & Corporations Law.

Personally I'd say Legal History/Legal Theory is one of the few subjects that actually stands on its own. Who gives a shit about Dworkin, that aint gonna help you merge with Japan!

 

[Frigid]

i want to qualify neo's answer by saying, it is not impossible to do well in an elective course the core of which you flunked... i didn't pay attention to contract law in my younger, wilder days, but i'm absolutely loving the more advanced contracts courses (of which there are two at UNSW) and making good progress in them.

 

[Cookie182]

I disagree. Alot of electives are based on core courses. For example, you'd want a good grasp of international law before trying international trade law or private international law or corporate law before trying takeovers and securities law. That isn't to say that you'll do badly in international trade law if you flunked international law, just that law courses are inextricably linked. You'll have bits of international law popping up in everything from Tax to Intellectual Property to Human Rights Law and Contract popping up in Corporations Law, Restitution, Equity and Labour Law. A good example of that would be a case called Hospital Products v US Surgical which popped up in Tax Law, Equity, Intellectual Property, Restitution & Corporations Law.

Personally I'd say Legal History/Legal Theory is one of the few subjects that actually stands on its own. Who gives a shit about Dworkin, that aint gonna help you merge with Japan!

In your honest opinon why are we force to endure the painful readings of HLA Heart, Ronald Dworkin and the like. Who really cares about what 'law' is? Whether it is inextricably linked to nature or whether it stands on its on two feet, affirmed through legislators who hold authority. Who cares for legal pluralism and to be frank, the legal system of the aborigines!!!!

Legal theory, whilst it can be slightly interesting, really has no practical place in my reality! Why, why are we made to study this? SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!