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Accounting Cadetships (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter bugger
- Start date
--insomniac--
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- Aug 16, 2002
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- 19
Yes i did with Moore Stephens PMN
--insomniac--
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2002
- Messages
- 19
I only applied for Moore Stephens because of it's convenient location. I didn't apply for any other firms. I like the idea of working in a mid-tier firm because you're closer to the members of the firm. I also gives me a better chance to work my way up =D
I applied for business @ uts. I had to choose a uni that was easy for me to get to on my half-days from work. Parra UWS was closest but <=/ so yeah i decided to go back to parra station and hitch an express train to central =)
I applied for business @ uts. I had to choose a uni that was easy for me to get to on my half-days from work. Parra UWS was closest but <=/ so yeah i decided to go back to parra station and hitch an express train to central =)
ghostrider
New Member
IM SORRY I HAVE TO GET THIS OFF MY CHEST
Is accounting THE most boring job in the world? Are accoutning cadetships possibly the biggest rort in the world? Hey imagine....why dont i put mysellf in a situation where i work full time for really shitty pay ( fulltime brickies would get three time what u will be gettin) while I study at night. but instead of accepting the absolute shittiness of the situation i find myself in ill rationalise it so it looks like i come up on top.
like
when i finsihed my job ive got a security and a gauranteed job ( yeah in accounting u sad fool. and job security-gasp- i could never be unemployed while i look for a half decent job. no way. plus mummy and daddy ( who are probably accountants) wouldnt accept that.)
the pay is good ( this is simply incorrect. the pay is terrible. i think all in all, after tax, it comes down to 8-9 bucks an hour. u d get more as acheckout chick)
but i get to wear suits and shit and pretend im really mature with the adults ( oh i have no comment for this sad little delusion)
MY PERSONAL FAVOURITE- "Im not doing accounting, no way, that shit is boring, im in the Assurance division". My response. " then why, pray, do they force u to major in ACCOUNTING in ur plebby commerce degree, why do u work in an ACCOUNTING firm. Dont u see they have developed little euphemisms to delude u so u think. ' hey im not a shitty accountant. Im in the assurance division. completely different thing, no accounting there.'
the large delusion that which ever one of the big 4 or whatever u have joined acutally cares about u. 'Yeah they give me gym subsidies and there is a soccer comp." These ideas only comes from the gurus in HUMAN RESOURCES who are so obsessed with ur loyalty that they will brainwash ur young innocnet minds into thinking they actually do give a flying fuck about you, thus productivity can be increased.
IM sorry for this tirade but it has been eating me up. u people dont see the full picture only the rosy one in ur prospectuses. try talking to some people who did cadetships and quit after they discovered the reality of the situation. im sorry i just hate seeing the youth wasted becoming the garbage men of the business world.
Is accounting THE most boring job in the world? Are accoutning cadetships possibly the biggest rort in the world? Hey imagine....why dont i put mysellf in a situation where i work full time for really shitty pay ( fulltime brickies would get three time what u will be gettin) while I study at night. but instead of accepting the absolute shittiness of the situation i find myself in ill rationalise it so it looks like i come up on top.
like
when i finsihed my job ive got a security and a gauranteed job ( yeah in accounting u sad fool. and job security-gasp- i could never be unemployed while i look for a half decent job. no way. plus mummy and daddy ( who are probably accountants) wouldnt accept that.)
the pay is good ( this is simply incorrect. the pay is terrible. i think all in all, after tax, it comes down to 8-9 bucks an hour. u d get more as acheckout chick)
but i get to wear suits and shit and pretend im really mature with the adults ( oh i have no comment for this sad little delusion)
MY PERSONAL FAVOURITE- "Im not doing accounting, no way, that shit is boring, im in the Assurance division". My response. " then why, pray, do they force u to major in ACCOUNTING in ur plebby commerce degree, why do u work in an ACCOUNTING firm. Dont u see they have developed little euphemisms to delude u so u think. ' hey im not a shitty accountant. Im in the assurance division. completely different thing, no accounting there.'
the large delusion that which ever one of the big 4 or whatever u have joined acutally cares about u. 'Yeah they give me gym subsidies and there is a soccer comp." These ideas only comes from the gurus in HUMAN RESOURCES who are so obsessed with ur loyalty that they will brainwash ur young innocnet minds into thinking they actually do give a flying fuck about you, thus productivity can be increased.
IM sorry for this tirade but it has been eating me up. u people dont see the full picture only the rosy one in ur prospectuses. try talking to some people who did cadetships and quit after they discovered the reality of the situation. im sorry i just hate seeing the youth wasted becoming the garbage men of the business world.
--insomniac--
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2002
- Messages
- 19
hMMm i dont see why you gotta be such a fucknut about it all..
I just didnt know what to do in uni and having the cadetship gave me a direction. All i knew is that i wanted to work and study p/t cos i see it as a waste of time to be sitting in uni f/t.
I've heard accounting's really boring and all but the honest truth is - i dont care. I just like to be kept busy and since i know nothing about business/finances i thought it'd be good to learn a bit about it all.
Perhaps after 2 years of it or so I may decide it's not for me, but at the moment, i really have nothing else? So i think you should just respect the fact that not all people are as focused as you on what you want out of life and leave it for us to work it out.
missi-e
I just didnt know what to do in uni and having the cadetship gave me a direction. All i knew is that i wanted to work and study p/t cos i see it as a waste of time to be sitting in uni f/t.
I've heard accounting's really boring and all but the honest truth is - i dont care. I just like to be kept busy and since i know nothing about business/finances i thought it'd be good to learn a bit about it all.
Perhaps after 2 years of it or so I may decide it's not for me, but at the moment, i really have nothing else? So i think you should just respect the fact that not all people are as focused as you on what you want out of life and leave it for us to work it out.
missi-e
--insomniac--
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- Joined
- Aug 16, 2002
- Messages
- 19
oh.. in addition, my parents *aren't* accountants. They're public servants and don't care for what i earn or what i do, as long as it's respectable.
I just prefer to be clean and sitting in a booth typing figures in excel, photocopying or whatever they do.
Does it really matter what you do in life? As long as im busy and making some money I really don't care. I'm obviously not as passionate and optimistic as you about what i want and if you see people who take up accounting cadetships as being a a major fault in humanity then kill us all.
Someone's gotta do the shitty jobs and if we're willing to, why don't you just leave us alone?
I just prefer to be clean and sitting in a booth typing figures in excel, photocopying or whatever they do.
Does it really matter what you do in life? As long as im busy and making some money I really don't care. I'm obviously not as passionate and optimistic as you about what i want and if you see people who take up accounting cadetships as being a a major fault in humanity then kill us all.
Someone's gotta do the shitty jobs and if we're willing to, why don't you just leave us alone?
yeh i just saw that insomniac had posted in here so i checked it out...
yeh i totally agree with u insomniac ... like i defintely don't wanna become an accountant myself but i don't see why fucks should be dissing people who do.
*shrugs* you're free to express your opinion. but maybe u should realise that not everyone thinks accounting is boring. people also have different priorities. so what if they wanna study and work at the same time?
"but i get to wear suits and shit and pretend im really mature with the adults ( oh i have no comment for this sad little delusion) " sorry, but you're the only one who's deluded here ... no one _actually_ becomes an accountant so they can wear suits ... oh, sorry, didn't mean to burst your bubble =P
anyway... i dun really give a shit i thought i should just argue back for some reason ..
=)
yeh i totally agree with u insomniac ... like i defintely don't wanna become an accountant myself but i don't see why fucks should be dissing people who do.
*shrugs* you're free to express your opinion. but maybe u should realise that not everyone thinks accounting is boring. people also have different priorities. so what if they wanna study and work at the same time?
"but i get to wear suits and shit and pretend im really mature with the adults ( oh i have no comment for this sad little delusion) " sorry, but you're the only one who's deluded here ... no one _actually_ becomes an accountant so they can wear suits ... oh, sorry, didn't mean to burst your bubble =P
anyway... i dun really give a shit i thought i should just argue back for some reason ..
=)
its becoming an very interesting post.
ghostrider is just jealous the he/she doesn't have a job next yr that opens up so many possibilities.
54% of the richest 1000 people in the world, and 68% of the richest 220 in Australia, have an ACCOUNTING background.
ghostrider please talk again because it allows the rest of us to have a laugh, at how dumb you actually are.
ghostrider is just jealous the he/she doesn't have a job next yr that opens up so many possibilities.
54% of the richest 1000 people in the world, and 68% of the richest 220 in Australia, have an ACCOUNTING background.
ghostrider please talk again because it allows the rest of us to have a laugh, at how dumb you actually are.
ghostrider
New Member
touchie...
hahah, obviousley i have ruffled a few feathers. First of all i was only expressing an opinion, as observed by insomniac. I admit my generalisations were very broad but they were an accurate summation of the attitude of the six people from my school who got cadetships, maybe u people are different.
in response to-
"ghostrider is just jealous the he/she doesn't have a job next yr that opens up so many possibilities."
if there is an antonym for the word jealous then that word could possible begin to describe my attitude to those who have received accounting cadetships. I pity them. You used your stattistics to back up your claim that an accounting cadetships opens up so many possiblities. Even though im not so sad as to validate my statistics (obviousley u r either very sad or have alot of time on your hands to know that fact) i believe over half of the top ten richest people in australia left school after year 10. So therefore continuing your pattern of logic i could make the claim that leaving school after year 10 opens up so many possibilities. My other bone to pick is with the comment '54% of the richest 1000 people in the world, and 68% of the richest 220 in Australia, have an ACCOUNTING background.' My response, " SO WHAT?" Obviousley an undercurrent didn't manifest itself strongly enough in my first post. I'm suggesting that accounting is such a shit, boring, soulless job for the very fact that, '68% of the richest 220 in Australia, have an ACCOUNTING background'. Why don't u go ask all these people, 'hey, do u actually enjoy ur job?' I think u know what the answer would be. THe only reason they would enjoy it is because they woul be rackin in the money. Im making the connatation that accounting is the chief instigator of the materialistic egotism of those elusive 68%, which you, your goal in life obviousley to collect as much wealth as possible, so desperately wish to join.
i agree with most of what --insomniac-- said. yeah i was making generalisations. im sure not all people who got cadetships have parents who are accountants. I personally don't know what i want out of life, im not as focussed as u suggest. However i do know what i DON"T want out of life, and the life of an accountant probably sums up the 'DON't want' aspects. YOu said "Does it really matter what you do in life? As long as im busy and making some money I really don't care."
Do u not find these statement that u just made profoundly depressing? I know im being pedantic but the point of life to u seems to be- stay occupied and make some money. I think u should care what u do in life. I can understnad ur wish to be busy and make some money but do it in something that is remotely interesting and that u can enjoy.
ANd yes i agree with the statement that someone has to do the shitty jobs however as im assuming that o get ur cadetship that u need above 85UAI so ur quite intelligent. Ur not dumb or anything so why do the shitty job, ur intellligent- ergo you should do the good job. And the issue of a 'respectable' job. does this encompass any employment minus that in the sex industry or something? i'm not going to go any further with that comment but lets just say maybe your parents should care more about the fact that u like ur job rather than it being 'respectable'.
johnson, insomniacs loyal partner, no real quibbles with you. you say
'so what if they wanna study and work at the same time? '
i think it is good if u study and work part time. Ill know ill be frickeen doing it. But my point is accounting is not the best employment to explore that avenue. The job is boring, the pay is shit, and its meaningless. Ill probably be doing laboring while at uni and earning round 20-25 bucks an hour. cadets get round 8 bucks an hour after tax. There is this grand delusion that geting a cadetship means money rolling in, in a sense it does. but what ever a cadet earns in their 38 hour week anyone could earn in less than half the time.
I accept ur point on the suits comment. It was just an observation i made from 3 guys who got cadetships, when they rationalised their shitty employment with statements such as ' ill be looking like such a sic cunt next year in my classy suit.' I admit that doesn't apply to everyone.
I know it not nice to pay out what people are doing but like i said in the opening of my first statement it is just something i had to get off my chest. and judging by the reaction, its point of view that they havent heard before. and one that obviolsey offended bugger. I ve observed that many of the people who i know that have got cadetships dont have a very rounded view of the job. They only believe the glossy prospectuses and the vomit worthy corporate love in sessions. they dont realise the negative s by talking to people who have actually done cadetships and didnt' love them. I seriousley considered doing one until i fully researched it and reaslied what a complete rort it is. Ur work basically full time for peanuts, u HAVE to major in accounting, and they give this really disgusting, sappy corporate illusion that they actually care about u and ur wellbeing.
Well what an unusually long post.
"ghostrider please talk again because it allows the rest of us to have a laugh, at how dumb you actually are."
I hope i have satisfied ur desperate urge bugger. Its funny, although we have vastly different attitudes we share sort of similar goals. I do want a decent job, something that i enjoy and find interesting and ill be the first one to admit that ill probably find it in the commerce world. It seems we are on different paths to the same place, however ur think ur path is the yellow brick road. I do not suffer this illusion. I have found the people doing cadetships have above average intelligence, but no further than that.Bugger, If you were really as smart as ur condascending attitude suggests then u would realise that accounting cadetships are not as good as they seem. Good luck in ur chosen path, im sure ill cross ur like in my career. And ill just make a final generalisation to satisfy JOhnson. 'bugger, make sure u vote liberal in the election. Long live John Howard u spineless, ignorant plebian.' How rude of me
hahah, obviousley i have ruffled a few feathers. First of all i was only expressing an opinion, as observed by insomniac. I admit my generalisations were very broad but they were an accurate summation of the attitude of the six people from my school who got cadetships, maybe u people are different.
in response to-
"ghostrider is just jealous the he/she doesn't have a job next yr that opens up so many possibilities."
if there is an antonym for the word jealous then that word could possible begin to describe my attitude to those who have received accounting cadetships. I pity them. You used your stattistics to back up your claim that an accounting cadetships opens up so many possiblities. Even though im not so sad as to validate my statistics (obviousley u r either very sad or have alot of time on your hands to know that fact) i believe over half of the top ten richest people in australia left school after year 10. So therefore continuing your pattern of logic i could make the claim that leaving school after year 10 opens up so many possibilities. My other bone to pick is with the comment '54% of the richest 1000 people in the world, and 68% of the richest 220 in Australia, have an ACCOUNTING background.' My response, " SO WHAT?" Obviousley an undercurrent didn't manifest itself strongly enough in my first post. I'm suggesting that accounting is such a shit, boring, soulless job for the very fact that, '68% of the richest 220 in Australia, have an ACCOUNTING background'. Why don't u go ask all these people, 'hey, do u actually enjoy ur job?' I think u know what the answer would be. THe only reason they would enjoy it is because they woul be rackin in the money. Im making the connatation that accounting is the chief instigator of the materialistic egotism of those elusive 68%, which you, your goal in life obviousley to collect as much wealth as possible, so desperately wish to join.
i agree with most of what --insomniac-- said. yeah i was making generalisations. im sure not all people who got cadetships have parents who are accountants. I personally don't know what i want out of life, im not as focussed as u suggest. However i do know what i DON"T want out of life, and the life of an accountant probably sums up the 'DON't want' aspects. YOu said "Does it really matter what you do in life? As long as im busy and making some money I really don't care."
Do u not find these statement that u just made profoundly depressing? I know im being pedantic but the point of life to u seems to be- stay occupied and make some money. I think u should care what u do in life. I can understnad ur wish to be busy and make some money but do it in something that is remotely interesting and that u can enjoy.
ANd yes i agree with the statement that someone has to do the shitty jobs however as im assuming that o get ur cadetship that u need above 85UAI so ur quite intelligent. Ur not dumb or anything so why do the shitty job, ur intellligent- ergo you should do the good job. And the issue of a 'respectable' job. does this encompass any employment minus that in the sex industry or something? i'm not going to go any further with that comment but lets just say maybe your parents should care more about the fact that u like ur job rather than it being 'respectable'.
johnson, insomniacs loyal partner, no real quibbles with you. you say
'so what if they wanna study and work at the same time? '
i think it is good if u study and work part time. Ill know ill be frickeen doing it. But my point is accounting is not the best employment to explore that avenue. The job is boring, the pay is shit, and its meaningless. Ill probably be doing laboring while at uni and earning round 20-25 bucks an hour. cadets get round 8 bucks an hour after tax. There is this grand delusion that geting a cadetship means money rolling in, in a sense it does. but what ever a cadet earns in their 38 hour week anyone could earn in less than half the time.
I accept ur point on the suits comment. It was just an observation i made from 3 guys who got cadetships, when they rationalised their shitty employment with statements such as ' ill be looking like such a sic cunt next year in my classy suit.' I admit that doesn't apply to everyone.
I know it not nice to pay out what people are doing but like i said in the opening of my first statement it is just something i had to get off my chest. and judging by the reaction, its point of view that they havent heard before. and one that obviolsey offended bugger. I ve observed that many of the people who i know that have got cadetships dont have a very rounded view of the job. They only believe the glossy prospectuses and the vomit worthy corporate love in sessions. they dont realise the negative s by talking to people who have actually done cadetships and didnt' love them. I seriousley considered doing one until i fully researched it and reaslied what a complete rort it is. Ur work basically full time for peanuts, u HAVE to major in accounting, and they give this really disgusting, sappy corporate illusion that they actually care about u and ur wellbeing.
Well what an unusually long post.
"ghostrider please talk again because it allows the rest of us to have a laugh, at how dumb you actually are."
I hope i have satisfied ur desperate urge bugger. Its funny, although we have vastly different attitudes we share sort of similar goals. I do want a decent job, something that i enjoy and find interesting and ill be the first one to admit that ill probably find it in the commerce world. It seems we are on different paths to the same place, however ur think ur path is the yellow brick road. I do not suffer this illusion. I have found the people doing cadetships have above average intelligence, but no further than that.Bugger, If you were really as smart as ur condascending attitude suggests then u would realise that accounting cadetships are not as good as they seem. Good luck in ur chosen path, im sure ill cross ur like in my career. And ill just make a final generalisation to satisfy JOhnson. 'bugger, make sure u vote liberal in the election. Long live John Howard u spineless, ignorant plebian.' How rude of me
Mate..I've read your comments..very interesting reading, and I take them on, find some interesting and some just bizare.
I took your comments a little more personally because I believe I have an extremly rounded view about the cadetship.
I see the good points (for which there are many), however I do see the negatives and are quite aware of them. I'm not going into this unprepared, unlike what your comments seemed to suggest.
THe chance to wear a suit and hang out in an adult environment is well down on the positives to come out of it.
The best thing is
1. My work (the practical side) will back up and make UNI easier, and as I have already down a semester of UNI work while doing my HSC, don't under estimate how much help this will be.
2. The opportunites it opens up, and how much better position I will be in, then someone who just went to uni fulltime.
And as for your comment of only getting $8, your a long way off the mark, you should've of done more research before you open your mouth. I suppose it hurts to be wrong, I wouldn't know.
Look forward to a detailed response.
I took your comments a little more personally because I believe I have an extremly rounded view about the cadetship.
I see the good points (for which there are many), however I do see the negatives and are quite aware of them. I'm not going into this unprepared, unlike what your comments seemed to suggest.
THe chance to wear a suit and hang out in an adult environment is well down on the positives to come out of it.
The best thing is
1. My work (the practical side) will back up and make UNI easier, and as I have already down a semester of UNI work while doing my HSC, don't under estimate how much help this will be.
2. The opportunites it opens up, and how much better position I will be in, then someone who just went to uni fulltime.
And as for your comment of only getting $8, your a long way off the mark, you should've of done more research before you open your mouth. I suppose it hurts to be wrong, I wouldn't know.
Look forward to a detailed response.
--insomniac--
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2002
- Messages
- 19
ill be looking like such a sic cunt next year in my classy suit. <-- LOL!!! i wish i had a classy suit...
hMm yeah i guess im a depressing kinda person. My school is James Chan UAI Factory and any soul i had once possessed was confiscated.. nah seriously, i just dont care what i do with myself as long as im kept busy. After a few decades in the workforce im sure i'll be numb to the boringness of my job. I guess I wouldn't mind being one of those ppl who test out computer games for $20/hr but heck - gotta start somewhere.
Another reason why i took up accounting rather than med (which is the only other im interested in, so dont diss it) was because I have no idea about business and stuff so I think it's necessary for me to learn about it all.. my parents are asian fobs and we dont talk commerce at the dinner table so I'm very naive in that field and I dont feel comfortable entering the adult world without that kinda knowledge.
UmMm unfortunately *bugger* yeah the pay is pretty minimal.. the 'on job' experience is meant to make it up (yeah right) but blah.. i figured if i spent only $150 a week i'd be able to save 10K by the end of the year. Better than nothing!
Thank you Ghostrider for respecting my comments. I get a lot of it. Doesn't do much for my impression of accounting but heck - you probably get a lot out of pissing on people. As the obliging, defenceless suckers doing= cadetships we are in this thread, you really knew where to point that whiz stick of yours. <=T
hMm yeah i guess im a depressing kinda person. My school is James Chan UAI Factory and any soul i had once possessed was confiscated.. nah seriously, i just dont care what i do with myself as long as im kept busy. After a few decades in the workforce im sure i'll be numb to the boringness of my job. I guess I wouldn't mind being one of those ppl who test out computer games for $20/hr but heck - gotta start somewhere.
Another reason why i took up accounting rather than med (which is the only other im interested in, so dont diss it) was because I have no idea about business and stuff so I think it's necessary for me to learn about it all.. my parents are asian fobs and we dont talk commerce at the dinner table so I'm very naive in that field and I dont feel comfortable entering the adult world without that kinda knowledge.
UmMm unfortunately *bugger* yeah the pay is pretty minimal.. the 'on job' experience is meant to make it up (yeah right) but blah.. i figured if i spent only $150 a week i'd be able to save 10K by the end of the year. Better than nothing!
Thank you Ghostrider for respecting my comments. I get a lot of it. Doesn't do much for my impression of accounting but heck - you probably get a lot out of pissing on people. As the obliging, defenceless suckers doing= cadetships we are in this thread, you really knew where to point that whiz stick of yours. <=T
~ForAGoodCause~
always been the easy kill
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,164
- Gender
- Female
- HSC
- 2002
Re: touchie...
omg i aint readin that, thats way too long
omg i aint readin that, thats way too long
--insomniac--
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2002
- Messages
- 19
Moore Stephens PMN
ghostrider
New Member
nah dont worry bugger i wont bore you with another diatribe. The whole point of my argument is that heaps of people who get the cadetships don't have a very rounded view of them. All they know about them is that glossy bullshit propaganda u see in their propsectuses (you know what im talking bout). If you can see through that bullshit good luck to u then and have fun being an accountant. and as for statement about pay i don't know which firm ur working for but at PWC, after tax $8-9/hour...maybe u ve been looking at the glossy prospectuses to much. Seeing as u r so rounded post five pros and five cons to have an accounting cadetship...maybe ull see the light.
insomniac- yeah i tried out for med too at UNSW didnt even get a reply so i guess my UMAT wasnt that good- fuckin impossible unless ur prepared to not live in sydney. 'James Chan UAI factory' is that a euphemism for a selective school or something. Yeah even if u dont knwo shit about business accountanting is not necessarily the best option to explore this avenue. I don't know i think its just tat fact that u r forced to major in accounting that really pisses me off...so fuckin maipulative.Ive got nothing against Commerce degrees but forcing u to major in accounting...thats a bit rich.
plus i dont get alot out of pissing on people. i get pissed of because people dont see the full picture..i play the very concept of human resources for that.
insomniac- yeah i tried out for med too at UNSW didnt even get a reply so i guess my UMAT wasnt that good- fuckin impossible unless ur prepared to not live in sydney. 'James Chan UAI factory' is that a euphemism for a selective school or something. Yeah even if u dont knwo shit about business accountanting is not necessarily the best option to explore this avenue. I don't know i think its just tat fact that u r forced to major in accounting that really pisses me off...so fuckin maipulative.Ive got nothing against Commerce degrees but forcing u to major in accounting...thats a bit rich.
plus i dont get alot out of pissing on people. i get pissed of because people dont see the full picture..i play the very concept of human resources for that.
Azamakumar
bannèd
Ghostrider is a sped. It's 18k/year tax free on top of a free degree, worth 50k depending on where you would've gone for it.
Then theres the 50k entry level management position that you get at the end of the cadetship (EY and KMPG I believe), which after about 3 years will set you up for an MBA.
I see nothing wrong with losing 2 years of my life for an MBA at the age of 26.
You probably are bitter.
Then theres the 50k entry level management position that you get at the end of the cadetship (EY and KMPG I believe), which after about 3 years will set you up for an MBA.
I see nothing wrong with losing 2 years of my life for an MBA at the age of 26.
You probably are bitter.