Accounting vs Investment Banking (1 Viewer)

[mr_shittles]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Edited by Jase: Accounting vs Investment banking (split from Accounting Cadetships thread here:
http://community.boredofstudies.org/462/commerce-business/108529/accounting-cadetships.html)

Discuss (nicely)!

I stand by this comment:

There is no job in Finance that a single major in Accounting cannot get you into.

However, you cannot get into an accounting job with a Finance major only


by "finance" job I mean fund management, broking, banking etc.

I have to disagree with both statements there . . .

There is no job in Finance that a single major in Accounting cannot get you into.

I have a fully completed accounting major with decent grades and a year's work experience, and unfortunately, I don't think I'd be the ideal candidate to go into derivatives trading. So I don't think any accountant can move into any finance role . . . that's just plain silly.

Furthermore, if that statement were true, why would universities accross the world even bother setting up schools of finance and offerring finance majors? It seems quite counter intuitive if Finance majors have no advantage in the field of finance over non-finance majors such as accounting.

However, you cannot get into an accounting job with a Finance major only

You don't even need to do a commerce degree to become either a CA or CPA accountant, let alone get a finance major. I have met accountants that have science degrees and gone into auditing.

And the CFO of Westpac, Phil Coffey is from a finance background (he used to be head of the Westpac Institutional Bank), as opposed to being an accountant.

 

[turtleface]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Haven't we already gone through this? Last time we discussed it you agreed (or should i say condeded) that an accounting background will get you nowhere in quant finance or trading.

It's also alot harder to get into IM, IB etc with an accounting degree than with a commerce/finance/maths degree.

yeah sorry I forgot last time (selective memory ), but I met a trader the other day who transferred in from big 4 audit...I'm sure its common.

I disagree, I think it is easier to get into a IBank with an accounting major as opposed to a Finance major (in Australia) for areas like product control, maybe not necessarily the actual IBD where it seems a law degree is the vogue right now.

I mean, the well known Ibankers are either CAs/ex big 4 like the head of Macbank's IBD or Law grads (like Turnbull) or Economics grads (like all the others). Since when has there been some hard arse Finance major in Investment Banking?

Finance is a joke, its like a 4 subject major. Hence there aren't any jobs that specifically require a Finance major, not even Investment Banking. They just teach you the capital market shit in house. Finance is becoming like the management major, its something everyone needs to know, but not necessarily what you do at uni.

I have a fully completed accounting major with decent grades and a year's work experience, and unfortunately, I don't think I'd be the ideal candidate to go into derivatives trading. So I don't think any accountant can move into any finance role . . . that's just plain silly.

Furthermore, if that statement were true, why would universities accross the world even bother setting up schools of finance and offerring finance majors? It seems quite counter intuitive if Finance majors have no advantage in the field of finance over non-finance majors such as accounting.

read my comments in the prior paragraph RE: the point of a finance major. I'll also post up some stuff of what I mean in a few minutes.
By the way have you tried looking on seek.com.au for "finance" jobs and stuff

You don't even need to do a commerce degree to become either a CA or CPA accountant, let alone get a finance major. I have met accountants that have science degrees and gone into auditing.

And the CFO of Westpac, Phil Coffey is from a finance background (he used to be head of the Westpac Institutional Bank), as opposed to being an accountant.

CPA you do require an Accounting major still. CA you do not, however if you don't, you have to pass a diagnostics test. It is unlikely you will pass unless you have only missed 1 or 2 subjects from a full Accounting major, so your point is more of a technicality.

People who have science degrees and go into auditing either major in accounting too, or are from overseas like the UK where the post grad ACA program takes you from zero to accountant. Additionally, not all auditors are accountants, many auditors like Internal auditors may be CISAs, etc. i.e. Information Systems Auditors.

As for Phil Coffey, I dunno his full work exp history, but from his short bio it seems he's from an economics background. Regardless, as I said before 85% of CFOs of ASX 200 companies are Accountants because the CFO role is not a pure Accounting role, it is a Financial Management role. It is only dominated by Accountants, not exclusive to Accountants.

It should be noted that Westpac is the smallest by market cap bank of the top 4 (though I'm not suggesting that the CFO not being an Accountant is not a contributory factor), and the three banks above it, NAB, CBA and ANZ have Accountant CFOs: Michael Ulmer (FCA), David Craig (FCA too I think), Peter Marriott (FCA and FCPA)
so there we have it. not quite 85% for the top 4 banks, but (the biggest) 3 out of the big 4 banks have a Chartered Accountant CFO.

yes I am horribly biased.

 

[ND]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

By the way have you tried looking on seek.com.au for "finance" jobs and stuff

I think that you'll find (i haven't actually looked but i'm assuming) that most jobs listed under finance are accounting type jobs. This fact does nothing to support your point that an accounting degree can get you into any finance job.

 

[turtleface]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Ok, so it took me a bit longer than a few minutes but here we go (my parents threw out my AFRs):

I lost the AFR with this ad, but luckily it was online:

Investment Banking Department (Front office, traditional IB):

Here's your prayers answered Mr Shittles. You have until the 25th before it closes.

http://www.careers.macquarie.com/jobDetails.asp?sJobIDs=256994&lLocationID=2950%2C2951%2C2952%2C2953%2C2954%2C2955%2C2956%2C2957%2C2971%2C2977%2C2980%2C2981%2C2986%2C2987%2C2998%2C2999%2C4858%2C4859%2C4860%2C4861%2C2984&lLocationGroupID_Expand=1&sJobNo=investment&sKeywords=investment&lSkillTypeID=&stp=WEBSITE&sLanguage=en

Where, oh where??????????? does it say "finance people welcome"?

It specifically says :

We are particularly interested in speaking with accountants, lawyers, engineers and actuaries who have decided that they would like to transition to a career in investment banking.

Not: random finance people. Specifically they want Accountants, Lawyers, Engineers and Actuaries.

This new zealand one is the same:
http://www.careers.macquarie.com/jo...stment&lSkillTypeID=&stp=WEBSITE&sLanguage=en


Fund Management:
note: "accounting or finance"
as you can see, despite being allegedly a finance job, an accounting major is equally acceptable:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m279/jabber06/f2.jpg


Some other random Finance job:

this one doesn't even want finance people lol:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m279/jabber06/f1.jpg


(i did the red lines)

 

[Conspirocy]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

im sure there are some people who study finance who work in finance as in IB


from my knowledge the most sucessfull people in investment banking are not those who majored in anything but finance, for example, economists, accountants and others. and to say that we should look at current trends its a cop out, how many people major in finance...how many of them are unemployable would be an interesting trend to follow as well

I think some might have missed the point that the most generic double major in a commerce degree is accounting/finance. I think thats fine...personally i dont like the idea of a finance major by itself...

again most finance is economics, and i would argue as others have, that most people working in finance pick up what they do on the job, rather than going into it and knowing everything.

the point is, IBs are more willing to take the risk on accounting majors, than on finance majors in terms of a career change. and basically the overkill in the post above to prove the point, is sorta justified, cause i distinctly remember people saying something like "well if you work in accounting you pretty much stuck there", thats plain wrong.

 

[turtleface]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Why did they not ask for random finance people? Well, if you've ever dealt with investment bankers, you'll notice that there ar quite a few of them who are finance graduates, indeed they've done finance graduates. The above-mentioned ad targets people from other professions . . . why? because often the top finance students have already been recruited into investments banks at the point at which the ad targets potential applicants. . . and it may not be as valuable for the investment banks to pick those that have done finance majors and not got into IB.

oh come on thats a cop out. I'm not one of the education baggers that say its life experience and not book smarts that matters (education is very important to me), however I have noticed that the commercial world doesn't seem to give a shit about good students much. The fact is Finance is useless by itself for things like Investment Banking.

Also, explain to me how the 2nd highest paid man at Macquarie Bank (the head of the Investment Banking group) (who earned 20.5 million or something compared to Moss's 21.2 or something last year) is an ex-big 4 tax accountant?

Having not done a finance subject yet, does a finance major impart any skills on a graduate that an accountant or other non-finance graduate does not have?

I think Finance subjects are very important, however you screw yourself if you major solely in Finance because Finance stuff is more like skills rather than a profession you go into.

Because Accounting majors have to do some intermediate finance subjects anyway, they pretty much graduate with the core knowledge. You also have to do Finance stuff in the CPA/CA program.

Its like maths, many people do it, but would you solely major in it? Possibly. Bad example.

Which product is he trading and where?

futures contracts, dunno where, some mid size joint I think

 

[YBK]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

wow

this thread is full of insecure accountants in big 4 firms who think they're king shit.

when will you finally wake up and admit the fact that your precious stocktake counting widget skills are actually worthless.

no your accounting major will not get you into an investment banking role. dipshits.

yeah, and you seem like a genius. want a cookie?

being an accountant in a big 4 will obviously help you get into an investment banking role if you wanted to, if you can't see that, then umm.. you are the 'dipshit'. Or more likely, the one who will be dipped in shit when the time comes. (ie. you get out of uni and notice that accountants actually do get good jobs.)

and how the heck do you know that their skills are worthless, is that why there are more accounting jobs available than almost any.

You're just blind. Or jealous. Or maybe just bloody stupid. Take your pick.

 

[Conspirocy]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Thank you Mr Shittles, Turtleface, ND and especially Seremify007 for your input. My knowledge of Accounting and Cadetships has really improved after reading your posts.

I'm still a bit confused about one thing though: Is it better off doing B Commerce at UNSW/USyd doing 2 majors (eg Accounting and Finance) or doing Comm(Business)/Law at Macquarie/UTS? I know for certain that I'll never make Comm/Law at UNSW/Usyd

Hey i have an alternative that i dont think is that bad.

maybe a single com/law or bus/law at uts isnt good enough because you are only gaining one major in commerce. what you could do is do your commerce degree and then apply for your law degree so that would be 3 + 3 years, so one extra year and you get an extra commerce major if you want it.

Personally the people who seem to do that want to solely practice law. Unless you want to practice law I would not waste time doing it to prove you could. A law degree could add value in the area of commerce you want to go into, im assuming accounting here so yeah that would be useful.

then again you have to do the business law subjects anyway, and then some of the law again for your CA or CPA. I'm at unsw and they seem to have taught me as much as I would have learnt in the similar law courses, in fact they seem more focused to accounting at times which is useful. You learn enough law to either make a decision, or say yeah a lawyer needs to answer that question.

Personally, i think its more useful to go and work in your accounting field, see what you need. maybe doing further commerce study down the track would help you more, than your combined law degree, maybe you didnt do law, and now is the time for you to go and do it. with work experiance, you will see what is relevant in your work, and it will allow you to pick and choose what you need to learn.

 

[Conspirocy]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

no your accounting major will not get you into an investment banking role. dipshits.

I think that's wrong, and I think it has been proven.

If you want to take a swipe at accountants in BIG 4 firms, thats pretty rich. They have it easy, there you are in an Investment Bank (if you work for one) working your ass off, for a little bit extra, no job security, and basically dependent on business cycles to make money. The kids in the BIG 4 work hard, have a relaxed environment, gain skills, and if anyone read the article in the paper this weekend, looks like they get to have a family. Further, after they finish their CA half of them get pinched by other firms, including investment banks.

Then again, the ones who stay do pretty well too. I mean if they work in insolvency, they get to clean up all the bad deals you make that fail. Thanks for the work mate.

 

[turtleface]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

yeah, and you seem like a genius. want a cookie?

being an accountant in a big 4 will obviously help you get into an investment banking role if you wanted to, if you can't see that, then umm.. you are the 'dipshit'. Or more likely, the one who will be dipped in shit when the time comes. (ie. you get out of uni and notice that accountants actually do get good jobs.)

and how the heck do you know that their skills are worthless, is that why there are more accounting jobs available than almost any.

You're just blind. Or jealous. Or maybe just bloody stupid. Take your pick.

I think that's wrong, and I think it has been proven.

If you want to take a swipe at accountants in BIG 4 firms, thats pretty rich. They have it easy, there you are in an Investment Bank (if you work for one) working your ass off, for a little bit extra, no job security, and basically dependent on business cycles to make money. The kids in the BIG 4 work hard, have a relaxed environment, gain skills, and if anyone read the article in the paper this weekend, looks like they get to have a family. Further, after they finish their CA half of them get pinched by other firms, including investment banks.

Then again, the ones who stay do pretty well too. I mean if they work in insolvency, they get to clean up all the bad deals you make that fail. Thanks for the work mate.

lol good posts

csmg what a dipstick lol

 

[Conspirocy]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

lol good posts

csmg what a dipstick lol

its true though, you can apply to work for an investment bank whenever you want. Why kill yourself in the first 2-4 years of working and burn out, when you can get some experiance of equal value and look to go into the field, if its something you want so bad. Personally, I would not go to an IB I'm not interested in what they do.

I had a relative who worked high up in an investment bank, they started at the RBA and gained skills they could not gain at an IB. Of course there are skills you can gain at a BIG 4 firm that you would not get at an IB. Everyone has the same training within an IB, so that's not an advantage - you catch up pretty quickly. If you come in with something different then thats an advantage.

And to just dismiss accounting as 'whatever', well good luck with that idea.

 

[turtleface]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

and I'll add that although accountants can join front office IBanks easily, if you start your career as an Investment Banker and then want to do audit without any accounting qualifications...lol...i doubt very likely

 

[ND]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Turtleface look at the job descriptions of those ads you posted (minus the IBD one) - they are clearly not the prestigious positions that most people have in mind when they are talking about IM (looks like most of it is accounting work).

Also, explain to me how the 2nd highest paid man at Macquarie Bank (the head of the Investment Banking group) (who earned 20.5 million or something compared to Moss's 21.2 or something last year) is an ex-big 4 tax accountant?

Come on, read back a few posts about my example of Lou Ranieri - he was one of the highest paid on Wall St, does that mean you should try and land a grad position in the mail room?

Its like maths, many people do it, but would you solely major in it? Possibly. Bad example.

Wtf are you talking about?

futures contracts, dunno where, some mid size joint I think

If it's not a top tier then it's pretty irrelevant.

They have it easy, there you are in an Investment Bank (if you work for one) working your ass off, for a little bit extra, no job security, and basically dependent on business cycles to make money.

A little bit extra? You're joking right? First year grads in IB make around 2.5 times as much as accounting grads at Big 4.

its true though, you can apply to work for an investment bank whenever you want. Why kill yourself in the first 2-4 years of working and burn out, when you can get some experiance of equal value and look to go into the field, if its something you want so bad. Personally, I would not go to an IB I'm not interested in what they do.

Sure you can apply whenever you want, but getting in is a different thing.

accountants can join front office IBanks easily

What world are you living in?!?

wow

this thread is full of insecure accountants in big 4 firms who think they're king shit.

when will you finally wake up and admit the fact that your precious stocktake counting widget skills are actually worthless.

no your accounting major will not get you into an investment banking role. dipshits.

Hahahah nice post.

Note: i'm extremely hung over so if anything i say doesn't make sense i apologise.

 

[mr_shittles]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Turtleface look at the job descriptions of those ads you posted (minus the IBD one) - they are clearly not the prestigious positions that most people have in mind when they are talking about IM (looks like most of it is accounting work).

of course it looks like accounting work . . . thats because it is accounting work . . . when ex-auditors get hired into IB that's what they do . . . they just get paid more to do it.

how many traders are ex-auditors? NONE.

processing clerks probably know more about derivatives than most auditors . . . this is not a joke btw, i'm dead srs.

Come on, read back a few posts about my example of Lou Ranieri - he was one of the highest paid on Wall St, does that mean you should try and land a grad position in the mail room?

well, might be a better option than some others have suggested on this thread.

Wtf are you talking about?



If it's not a top tier then it's pretty irrelevant.

Yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable.

A little bit extra? You're joking right? First year grads in IB make around 2.5 times as much as accounting grads at Big 4.

I think its actually around 2.2 times before bonus and more than 3 times after.

Sure you can apply whenever you want, but getting in is a different thing.

That's true . . . just because you apply for a job doesn't mean you'll get it.

 

[seremify007]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

A little bit extra? You're joking right? First year grads in IB make around 2.5 times as much as accounting grads at Big 4.

Which IB companies are you talking about? First year grads earn $45k in my firm. Does that mean ALL IB grads should be expecting $112k?

... and this doesn't even take into account the difference in working hours between the two.

 

[seremify007]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Sorry for triple posting- I'd edit my posts but BoS is running really slow for me. I'm guessing it's approaching that time of year again where all the HSC kiddies steal all the bandwidth!

If it's not a top tier then it's pretty irrelevant.

Also, I think that's rather elitist of you to say that. What's wrong with non top-tier firms/IBs? I'm not sure where you work but I think it'd be ironic if you ended up working at a non top-tier.

 

[Conspirocy]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

A little bit extra? You're joking right? First year grads in IB make around 2.5 times as much as accounting grads at Big 4.



Sure you can apply whenever you want, but getting in is a different thing.

I'm not sure but if you get paid 2.5 times more so I'll take base for accounting as $45, 000 (is that okay not really sure) times it by 2.5 and we have an IB who gets paid, $112, 500.

Now im not sure, but I think in IB most of that would be in terms of a bonus, so therefore it depends on how good you are. So then you could get more, you could get less.

I think you would be peaking at 2.5 if thats the case. Regardless, are you really getting paid more. How many hours do you work in IB? How many hours do you work in a BIG 4 accounting firm? I honestly don't know, from what I have heard there might be a difference there.

Getting the job is a different thing, keeping it is even more interesting. What is the turnover rate for graduates who start at an IB? How many actually do get through to the top? How many do get through in accounting to become a partner? Again I dont know, but thats how you would compare.

As for being insecure, I really have nothing to be insecure about, I dont work anywhere yet, and I dont intend on staying in accounting if I go there, nor would I stay in IB. They are not the be all and end all. When I enter the workforce I could easily apply for either job and get into them easily without having done Finance.

Which is the only point I am trying to make, Finance is not a pre req for an IB. Also, accounting is useful in IB and could land you a job in it. Finance is good to, and could land you a job in IB.

Honestly, I just don't see where you go with finance when you leave an IB. I'm asking seriously?

 

[lizbon]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

i think it's pointless to argue the salary difference between big 4 and IB grads.

As seremify007 pointed out, IB's (esp in corp finance, equities & fixed income) work alot more than an average big 4 accountant, most of them start at 715am in the morning and don't get off til at least after 8, and can often work more than 80 hrs a week. For that, i think it's only right they get paid well.

Looking at surveys, most estimate IB grads to have a base salary of ard 80K + 50% potential bonuses. This isnt more than twice (b4 bonus) a big 4 grad earns as audit grads next year will likely get paid 50k, so i srsly doubt IB grads will get 3 times more unless you work at Goldman Sachs.

Most B Comm grads do an acct/finance major, so they have the opportunity to choose btween having a work/life balance and more mundane work compared to the status, pay and long hrs you expect in a IB.

It's all personal preference (and whether you're good enough to get the spots).

 

[ND]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Which IB companies are you talking about? First year grads earn $45k in my firm. Does that mean ALL IB grads should be expecting $112k?

... and this doesn't even take into account the difference in working hours between the two.

Pretty much.

Also, I think that's rather elitist of you to say that. What's wrong with non top-tier firms/IBs? I'm not sure where you work but I think it'd be ironic if you ended up working at a non top-tier.

Ok it doesn't have to be necessarily top tier, but i'd say it would have to be at least top 10 to be relevant. Generally when people are talking about trading etc. they are talking about working at a top bank.

Now im not sure, but I think in IB most of that would be in terms of a bonus, so therefore it depends on how good you are. So then you could get more, you could get less.

I think you would be peaking at 2.5 if thats the case. Regardless, are you really getting paid more. How many hours do you work in IB? How many hours do you work in a BIG 4 accounting firm? I honestly don't know, from what I have heard there might be a difference there.

In australia alot of it is base for grads. Sure the hours are alot more, but i was replying to your comment that the pay was only a little more in IB, when that clearly is not true.

When I enter the workforce I could easily apply for either job and get into them easily without having done Finance.

Really? If that's true then you must be pretty impressive.

Honestly, I just don't see where you go with finance when you leave an IB. I'm asking seriously?

Some people really are clueless - IB has pretty much the best exit opportunities out of any career (only problem is that you have to take a massive pay cut if you want to exit to anywhere other than PE)

ooking at surveys, most estimate IB grads to have a base salary of ard 80K + 50% potential bonuses. This isnt more than twice (b4 bonus) a big 4 grad earns as audit grads next year will likely get paid 50k, so i srsly doubt IB grads will get 3 times more unless you work at Goldman Sachs.

Why would you look at compensation before bonus? Everyone knows that the bonus is a massive part of IB.

Also, (in the US at least) Goldman pays a couple of K less than the other bulges, because they can.

 

[Conspirocy]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

In australia alot of it is base for grads. Sure the hours are alot more, but i was replying to your comment that the pay was only a little more in IB, when that clearly is not true.



Really? If that's true then you must be pretty impressive.



Some people really are clueless - IB has pretty much the best exit opportunities out of any career (only problem is that you have to take a massive pay cut if you want to exit to anywhere other than PE)

It is only a little bit more considering you are being paid for extra hours, if you compare them with a common base, for example hourly rate. You work more hours so that would be the only way you could really compare. If you have a better way, I'll use it.

Yeah, I kinda cheated about not doing finance though, I'm doing two economics majors in my degree and an accounting major

I'm not really clueless considering I have no experiance in the industry, I asked a question and there is no shame in that. There is no need to be rude about it. You didnt really answer it anyway, I'd like to know where you could work, not just a superficial "it has the best exit opportunities". Also when you say PE, that means?