Accounting vs Investment Banking (3 Viewers)

[frinkanator]

Hehe, here comes the barrage of flames. If I did come across as arrogant and mean, that certainly wasn’t what I was intending to show. I guess sarcasm on the internet has it’s limitations with some individuals.
I am just retaliating to a lot of the IB bashing from a lot of you. And it seems as I began to play on accounting stereotypes, a lot of you fan boys became quite defensive. go figure.

You can call me a first-year pleb, just some noob who has nothing to show for… whatever you please, but I’m certainly not talking through my arse. I certainly didn't say anyone not in IB cannot become successful. What I did mean is that many of you place too much emphasis on the salary and social life and how it isn't worth working that hard for that much. Your focus on the so-called shitty aspects of IB is irrelevant, especially with the flexibility of changing departments, ranks, specialty in industry, starting your own firm. I view accounting jobs with more of a permanent desk job role.

A lot of you talk like you know a lot, done some cadetships maybe even talked to some in the big4/IB's. And yes it is bloody hard... the hours are long... social life is sacrificed, but to many (including myself) it is viewed as merely a particularly hard rung in the ladder to the top. Like most graduate jobs, you start at the bottom in the shits and make your way up. It ain't working in the mines until you're 50 and dead, new blood is always turned over and the cycle continues. If you really are challenged, you move onto bigger and better things.
I know this particular ex-IB'er who has been through the whole process, did it tough, but managed to get himself set up very nicely in the stock market thanks to his decent salary and industry associates, now has his own investment firm, managing portoflios in the hundreds of millions at the age of 28. Now if he was an accountant instead, earning less, would he able to gear up large investments to build his wealth? Would his industry know-how in investment be not as strong? It certainly would be questionable.

True, I think I would rather earn more rather than have a "fake" social life. I mean, true, I'd rather double my salary for the sake of some crappy friday night drinks and boring weekends. But I think you can only say that frinkanator because you haven't experienced what its like to go flat out. Imagine attending uni 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. Can you handle it? What if I gave you $100,000 to do it?

In my opinion, welcome to the Investment Banking dilemma.

Actually, I would find it quite challenging. The experience and relationships would be worth much more than the handsome paycheck. if you're just getting into the industry with that mindset of doing it all for the $$$, then you obviously shouldn't be there and are doing a great disservice to yourself and those around you. You'd be better off auditing statements.

shows how rigorous the selection criteria is for traders lol . So you've been a trader since Yr 11 or so yeah?

I was moderately trading stocks back then, took a gap year last after a drastic career change, to work and educate myself on options and CFD trading. I now actively trade my family's portfolio.

Cheers.

 

[seremify007]

Just as a question to anyone who works in IB- do you have independence restrictions governing what you can/cannot buy with your personal portfolio?

 

[frinkanator]

frinkinator ur a f***kng gronk

if ur such a hot shot, why are u at uni then?

umm because most professional corporations don't just pick up dudes off the street to work.

why dont u just "make ur money work for u?", u seem to be such an investment professional with ur share marketing trading game experience

keep thinking ur good, idiots like u with no work experience and think they are born for the industry really make me laugh

Well i'm glad I made you laugh. To make things clear, Last time I played a share market game was in year 10. Most who play those games with no/little experience trading have no idea how different it is playing with your own money. It's too easy with play money. Trading with real money is no game... investing is not for anyone. Those who believe in a quick buck will find out the hard way. many have seriously been burnt treating like some casino game.
I know my little experience hardly accounts for anything professional, but believe me at least my outlook on investment and money and risk management is far ahead of many. Many people I meet at seminars and meetings are your typical mum and dad types who have kids at school just like us. I'm in no way trumpeting myself to the likes of professionals. But I am lucky to be learning off them.

Investing, requires a lot of psychological game, which they don't teach in uni or in a book. it's all down to experience with trading your own money in all market conditions. and in many cases, losing. I'm sorry but it's not spin the roulette wheel and hope it lands on black. And many grads only find this out when the pressure is on them on the trading floor. This tests the mind like anything, and the market will eat you up if you're not careful. Which is why not just anyone can have such a job, particularly in an IB and enjoy it. Basically what I'm saying , it's not a topic that a total noob like yourself has any idea of anyway.

but please at least try to know the persons full story before flaming them. it just makes you appear to be total dickwad.

cheers.

 

[ks21]

Just as a question to anyone who works in IB- do you have independence restrictions governing what you can/cannot buy with your personal portfolio?

I think they would, but not sure to what extent, as you could dealing with a variety of clients. As an intern, for actuarial consulting, I'm required to sign forms stating that I and my immediate family will not trade in restricted securities by their definition (including any leverage investments + insurance and banking stocks). However, I'm not sure who governs these rules, and the immediate family is included to prevent any possible suspect scenarios that could be traced back to you.

 

[seremify007]

umm because most professional corporations don't just pick up dudes off the street to work.

LOL. True that. But what about coops and cadetships?

Investing, requires a lot of psychological game, which they don't teach in uni or in a book. it's all down to experience with trading your own money in all market conditions. and in many cases, losing. I'm sorry but it's not spin the roulette wheel and hope it lands on black. And many grads only find this out when the pressure is on them on the trading floor. This tests the mind like anything, and the market will eat you up if you're not careful. Which is why not just anyone can have such a job, particularly in an IB and enjoy it. Basically what I'm saying , it's not a topic that a total noob like yourself has any idea of anyway.

Whilst I agree with you that you have put alot of thought into this and have done alot of research, dreamz does raise the fair point that you haven't worked a day of your life in the industry and haven't experienced it at all. That being said, many other people are in your position, and it's good that you at least have some idea of where you want to go. Not meaning to burst your bubble but I think the real world will be alot less exciting and mentally-stimulating, at least at your level (and grad level), than what you think it will be. This isn't to say it won't become much more challenging and exciting, but if you were an employer, of any sort, would you really trust a freshy to do anything which could leave you screwed over?

I think they would, but not sure to what extent, as you could dealing with a variety of clients. As an intern, for actuarial consulting, I'm required to sign forms stating that I and my immediate family will not trade in restricted securities by their definition (including any leverage investments + insurance and banking stocks). However, I'm not sure who governs these rules, and the immediate family is included to prevent any possible suspect scenarios that could be traced back to you.

I'd imagine it would be like that in Finance, Actuary, Accounting, etc... because we are all dealing with sensitive information which would definitely constitute insider trading, or at least be perceived to be that even if it was not. So with that thought in mind, I wonder how do those IBers who work in the markets, still manage to trade in the markets using their own personal savings? Wouldn't that constitute a conflict of interest? Even the smallest bit of info such as knowing one of your colleagues had to do research on a particular company could be enough to give you an advantage in terms of knowing when there was going to be a huge change in share price/volume.

 

[frinkanator]

Whilst I agree with you that you have put alot of thought into this and have done alot of research, dreamz does raise the fair point that you haven't worked a day of your life in the industry and haven't experienced it at all. That being said, many other people are in your position, and it's good that you at least have some idea of where you want to go. Not meaning to burst your bubble but I think the real world will be alot less exciting and mentally-stimulating, at least at your level (and grad level), than what you think it will be. This isn't to say it won't become much more challenging and exciting, but if you were an employer, of any sort, would you really trust a freshy to do anything which could leave you screwed over?

Actually, it's not thought or research... I am attaining it through sheer experience. Trading the various markets is a form of industry experience. And I'm not sure you and our loopy friend dreamz quite understand it but the psyche of getting deals and trades under pressure is a unique experience. And I'm lucky enough to taste a bit of it trading the markets and learning from those who've been there. you are essentially the little fish amongst a sea full of IB's and funds. I've talked to those in the aussie industry, and read about many who've worked at london SE, nyse, and the truth is many of those grads, are yet to experience the roller coaster ride that comes with the job. All they've done is read books, done exams, got a degree and tagged along in some cadetships, but experiencing the rush is totally different. There will be days when you are losing a lot and your bonus is on the line. these will make or break you.

I'd imagine it would be like that in Finance, Actuary, Accounting, etc... because we are all dealing with sensitive information which would definitely constitute insider trading, or at least be perceived to be that even if it was not. So with that thought in mind, I wonder how do those IBers who work in the markets, still manage to trade in the markets using their own personal savings? Wouldn't that constitute a conflict of interest? Even the smallest bit of info such as knowing one of your colleagues had to do research on a particular company could be enough to give you an advantage in terms of knowing when there was going to be a huge change in share price/volume.

of course there are disclaimers and such, but insider trading is not all black and white. comparing your relatively miniscule trading portfolio to a massive M&A will not mean much to the stock, and no one really loses. when dealing with human emotions it is difficult to narrow rules and regulations to a T. some rules are made to be broken.

cheers.

 

[Meads]

When will you all learn that if you want to be filthy rich you have to buy a garage in Silicon Valley!?

Deeerrr!

 

[phrred]

what stocks are you trading and how have you performed

 

[Omnidragon]

200K for 10 years? The pay will only be below 200K for the first few years (and at the end of the 10 years it will be *alot* higher than 200K).

followed immediately by

good post.

lol take into account from the 1.3 that u have to spend money to survive lol

Verdict: Selective Reading is the key to winning internet arguments. That's why you lose, ND.

http://soft.thomson.com/pdf/financia...y_Capital_Mkts

http://soft.thomson.com/pdf/financia...t_Capital_Mkts

Look under the australian tab. GSJBW isn't even up there on the debt capital markets top 10 for aus.

What about M&A?

The reply? There's none.

Selective Replies is also a key to winning internet arguments.
Verdict: ND loses again.

Basically what I'm saying , it's not a topic that a total noob like yourself has any idea of anyway.

Verdict: now that's how you do it. Well done!!

 

[jpr333]

Trading some of your mum and dad's shares while riding the curtails of the largest stock rise in australian history over the last couple of years (lets face it the share market is and has been booming) doesn't qualify yourself as a skilled investor/trader. It appears you've grown up in a flukily good time for the market and have delusions of grandeur, how would you be any better informed than the rest of the market, particularly those who have done it for a job for decades? Sorry you fail to impress me, nor does your apparent 'trading' background make you a some sort of authority in the IB v Accounting debate (fruitless as it may be), so again untill you have first hand experience leave the pre-emptive boasting in your head thanks and your assumptions about your own forthcoming success to yourself. Ite?

Directed at frinkanator btw.

 

[lizbon]

umm because most professional corporations don't just pick up dudes off the street to work.

Well i'm glad I made you laugh. To make things clear, Last time I played a share market game was in year 10. Most who play those games with no/little experience trading have no idea how different it is playing with your own money. It's too easy with play money. Trading with real money is no game... investing is not for anyone. Those who believe in a quick buck will find out the hard way. many have seriously been burnt treating like some casino game.
I know my little experience hardly accounts for anything professional, but believe me at least my outlook on investment and money and risk management is far ahead of many. Many people I meet at seminars and meetings are your typical mum and dad types who have kids at school just like us. I'm in no way trumpeting myself to the likes of professionals. But I am lucky to be learning off them.

Investing, requires a lot of psychological game, which they don't teach in uni or in a book. it's all down to experience with trading your own money in all market conditions. and in many cases, losing. I'm sorry but it's not spin the roulette wheel and hope it lands on black. And many grads only find this out when the pressure is on them on the trading floor. This tests the mind like anything, and the market will eat you up if you're not careful. Which is why not just anyone can have such a job, particularly in an IB and enjoy it. Basically what I'm saying , it's not a topic that a total noob like yourself has any idea of anyway.

but please at least try to know the persons full story before flaming them. it just makes you appear to be total dickwad.

cheers.

mate no one's doubting your intelligence and ambitions in establishing a career in finance, i think it's great that you're getting experience trading stocks and agree that playing ASX trading games are nothing like the real deal.

However, to work as a trader in equity/fixed income, it's not just about been efficient and having experience/knowledge in the market, it's also having client communication and negotiation skills, which, in my opinion, is the biggest challenge working as a trader.

Btw, people are flaming you cos you come across as a pompous prick, just because you think you have "industry" experience doesn't mean ur streets ahead of us supposed "mortals" intellectually.

If you wanna see a uni student whos really knowledgeable in trading/corp finance you should read about Chris Brycki.

 

[ND]

Verdict: Selective Reading is the key to winning internet arguments. That's why you lose, ND.





The reply? There's none.

Selective Replies is also a key to winning internet arguments.
Verdict: ND loses again.



Verdict: now that's how you do it. Well done!!

:rofl:
Looks like i've got some learning to do!


Anyway slightly off topic; how not to get into IB:

http://www.ivygateblog.com/blog/tags/aleksey_vayner/

Read from the bottom (and watch his video!), funny as.

 

[frinkanator]

It looks like I'm never going to get any sort of attention from you guys to the substance of what I'm saying, unless I'm 2nd year+ and/or enrolled in some wussy cadetship at a big4/IB. Yes, you're topgun now coz you've done a few more exams, read some more uni books. Seriously all I see is just a bunch of wussy academic uni-goers who think they're king dick because they've spoken to and sucked up to some admins at those companies. Perhaps it's just tall poppy syndrome, or just soft cocks who get all defensive and tough when they hear about someone who might be a little more knowledgable in some areas than themselves.

Like I've said, I've met IB'ers who have enlightened me on the niceties of their jobs and their success afterwards. I've read stories about those who were lucky enough to work at the floors in NYSE, CBOT, NYMEX, nasdaq and LSE. Newbie grads do get murdered by the markets. It's a fact of life. True courage and professionalism is measured by getting back on your horse after a tough fall. Bonuses and promotions come with experience and market instincts. I dunno, last time I checked they don't actually teach you the psychology of managing trades and clients under pressure, with lots of real money as an assignment in 2nd or 3rd year do they? You can't bloody teach that or quantify it. It's all about learning hands on. Instead you think it's all about punching some numbers at an IB trading computer and getting money. Naivety at its best.

Those of you judging me as some pompous 1st year who talks a lot really are kidding themselves. If you actually payed attention to my posts, I am actually humbling myself to those who are the professionals. Calling me some fool who just occasionally "trades" mummy and daddy's stocks really is an insult to the hard work I put in everyday, the priceless experience I've gained and to private traders like me who do the same thing. You truely have no idea about the trading community, the diverse backgrounds of traders, the real-time mechanics of leveraged derivative instruments they trade (it's not just stocks losers), the time-frames of trades being intraday to long term investing, technical and fundamental analysis, risk management and position sizing and the emotions and psychology involved.
Ask any other serious trader, who are much older than me, that the markets are not for everyone, including some of you king dick uni nut jobs. Those who treat it like a quick profit game simply lose in the end, due to their ego and incompetence.

You need decent money, courage and skills to even start to begin to be a part of those things. And the pocket money you saved up flipping burgers since you were 14, which now buys 2 BHP shares doesn't count.

I'm very fortunate that my father has exposed me to such a unique part of the community. - hearing some uni-duds telling me that I ain't worth anything because I didn't kiss ass or because I'm only in "1st year", is quite amusing. Shite, I'd be in second year now if I didn't take a year off, but I learned much much more, than I would. When I meet with traders, usually 25yo+, they never look down on me because of my age, but as equals, as each and every trader have their own unique experiences. Many are surprised to see such a youngster insterested in intense stuff like that, and often wish they knew what they know at my age.

You trumpet Chris Brycki (not to take anything away from him, he's quite a whiz), turning hypothetical money into more hypothetical money (during a mining boom mind you), yet you know nothing about the everyday people you hardly hear about who successfully trade for a living, while being mothers, fathers in whatever profession of society. I have far more regard for the joe bloggs "millionaire next door" who had to lose a million, hit rock bottom, supporting a family or relationship before the market got on his side and managed to conjure up the courage to trade again. I doubt you people have networked with such individuals. But chatting with an IB ponce about his shit day at work suddenly makes you all the more qualified? It's people like you who later get kicked out of the top-level because your arse is no longer wiped by your uni.

Trading some of your mum and dad's shares while riding the curtails of the largest stock rise in australian history over the last couple of years (lets face it the share market is and has been booming) doesn't qualify yourself as a skilled investor/trader. It appears you've grown up in a flukily good time for the market and have delusions of grandeur, how would you be any better informed than the rest of the market, particularly those who have done it for a job for decades? Sorry you fail to impress me, nor does your apparent 'trading' background make you a some sort of authority in the IB v Accounting debate (fruitless as it may be), so again untill you have first hand experience leave the pre-emptive boasting in your head thanks and your assumptions about your own forthcoming success to yourself. Ite?

Directed at frinkanator btw.

You're a pretty picture aren't you? Very typical of a fool who thinks skill is measured by bank account. If you do get into the markets, please do wear a helmet. I'm not sure if you've noticed but this year 2006 has been very challenging to trade, as the stocks and commodities have corrected and have gone volatile after a long run. It appears you have very little knowledge about trading vs. investing. Sure, many have profited through this massive boom since 2003. Anyone who bought blue chips in 2003/2004 and held until now would be quite happy. That's investing long term. Any fool could've done that. Medium/Short-term trades are a totally different story. Going long and short, and the strategies that surround them require more than luck. It's not just a matter of opening up the business section of the paper and blindly picking a stock that will go up during a boom period. You do that playing a game. This is where analysis skills, risk management and experience come to shine. Your naivety again at its best.

I find it pointless to argue with most of you, as it is apparent that your massive academic heads are far too big to comprehend or try to understand where I'm coming from. I'm glad I won't be such an anus in my latter uni years. Nevertheless, good luck to all of you. Especially to ND who got into Goldman. Congrats.

Cheers.

 

[Conspirocy]

Look if we are arguing the merits, why do people bring up their CV - if u had a point about ur work environment or what u do thats fair, but i agree when you dismiss people who are saying something, just because they are younger, its wrong ---i also a agree with frinkinator with that post, like sometimes you just know you are good and are going to make it.

As for asslicking, i havent done that. I applied for one firm, got given an interview and got one job. I didn't suck up to anyone, and found the job myself - i hardley tried to relate to the interviewer like some people do, my marks and extra ciricular activity did the talking for me. In fact i picked a niche that i thought i would be good at, and would be a good entry into the career path i want to take. I dont want to mention it, cause it will just start a comparision, which i just said wasnt necessary, and im only saying this to disprove the point made that people who have knowledge or jobs/cadetships must be suck ups. Anything that ive posted, ive tried to look into myself, and form an opinion based on facts, and what i think is right or common sense. Obviously people are trying to win an argument, including myself and they are being biased, and looking back on it, i think im big enough to admit that i have done that too. Honestly I agree, good luck to all of you, unless you have ths same career aspirations as me, in that case i plan to destroy the competition hahahaa joking goodluck to you guys as well.

 

[jpr333]

Honestly frinkanator I don't even know what point you're making anymore. It appears your narrative is designed to simply tell a story about how good you are? Am I off the mark? How self-absorbed can one be, seriously.

 

[phrred]

dw its just a phase where u think ur better than others coz u trade. i had it too. probably stems from peoples inabilities to bother reading the news. im sure many commerce uni students dont know theres a boom going on....twats

 

[dreamz]

I know my little experience hardly accounts for anything professional, but believe me at least my outlook on investment and money and risk management is far ahead of many.

lol mate, u already admit u havent worked in the industry and ur making assumptions about me having no experience? everything i said is right, u have no experience and still think ur made for the industry

i admit no one knows if they are made for it until they have actually been there, but ppl like u who have no experience in an investment bank (or let alone a 'shitty' big4 firm) is in no position to judge other people's professions / aspirations (eg: big4 firm)

Which is why not just anyone can have such a job, particularly in an IB and enjoy it. Basically what I'm saying , it's not a topic that a total noob like yourself has any idea of anyway.

ha. lets just say i am currently working across from town hall (no its not woolies)

but please at least try to know the persons full story before flaming them. it just makes you appear to be total dickwad.

cheers.

i agree, so:

"please try to know the persons full story before flaming them. it just makes you appear to be a total dickwad"

 

[frinkanator]

Am I off the mark?

Yup. you called me a mere 1st year pleb amongst other ignorant personal insults backed up with little facts. I actually bothered to try and explain my full story in my defense, and highlight there are others (no matter what age) who may also have an acquired knowledge of finance not necessarily obtained by being a uni bitch who love to caress corporate big4/IB management ass through 'work experience'.

You know, there really are people outside your little boredofstudies.org enclave. And when one of those people (yours truely) visit your fan club to witness a forum full of tertiary fools who think they know the industry more than most, post something to the contrary, the poor babies throw their rattle and crack a hissy fit.

Or would you like me to continue calling you an auditing candy ass?

cheers.

 

[dreamz]

what's more funny is u think u'r king shit, looking down upon people working in an accounting firm

when in fact, u've got absolutely no idea what it's like to work in any finance related industry

stfu

 

[frinkanator]

lol mate, u already admit u havent worked in the industry and ur making assumptions about me having no experience? everything i said is right, u have no experience and still think ur made for the industry

i admit no one knows if they are made for it until they have actually been there, but ppl like u who have no experience in an investment bank (or let alone a 'shitty' big4 firm) is in no position to judge other people's professions / aspirations (eg: big4 firm)

Exactly. And I guess you and others are Big 4/IB personnel, and therefore in a position to judge? It's like '''OMFGWTFBBQ!!!! how can a first year do that???!!, you need special VIP access to which they give special badges to once you're past penultimate year maaan!!!."

I actually associate with ex IB'ers (one, being one of our brokers). Not lick their ass through superficial training.

ha. lets just say i am currently working across from town hall (no its not woolies)

being a corporate lap dog, taking out the auditors trash and making coffee perhaps?

cheers.