Advantages of being a republic.. (1 Viewer)

[Iron]

But it's not our country. Point.
Soldiers fought under the Australian government they elected, not the flag

 

[banco55]

But it's not our country. Point.
Soldiers fought under the Australian government they elected, not the flag

You don't have to be able to trace your lineage back to the first fleet to realize that the British influence on Australia is everywhere. From the language, the form of government, to the way our history developed etc. When they march at Anzac day they don't carry photos of John Curtin. They carry the flag. There's a reason why the generation that went through WW II are the most resistant to changing the flag.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Even though they fought under the red ensign and our current flag wasn't official until 1954?

 

[Triangulum]

http://www.ausflag.com.au/debate/redensign/index.html

 

[Iron]

What's the bet Menzies went blue bc of the communists?

 

[KFunk]

Haha, it just hit me that a lot of (psuedo-?) sophisticates don't like the flag because they have a black arm band view of Australian history. Hopefully when they leave uni they will grow out of it and realize that there's a lot to be said for keeping the flag that our grandfathers etc. fought under. Not to mention acknowledging our links with the country that gave the world shakespeare, newton, adam smith etc. isn't such a bad thing.

I dislike nationalism full stop, to be honest, and much of the 'us-them' complex which it sets up. You only 'die for a flag' in a figurative sense - it's the ideals behind the flag which are important, I feel. I'm sure much of this is just my inner iconoclast being brought out.

On links to England --> our cultural ties will remain regardless (though they may diminish/change over time of course). The intellectual ones are going to be present as soon as you walk into The Academy to receive a western education. I'm not quite sure what formal, symbolic recognition adds in this instance.

 

[banco55]

I dislike nationalism full stop, to be honest, and much of the 'us-them' complex which it sets up. You only 'die for a flag' in a figurative sense - it's the ideals behind the flag which are important, I feel. I'm sure much of this is just my inner iconoclast being brought out.

On links to England --> our cultural ties will remain regardless (though they may diminish/change over time of course). The intellectual ones are going to be present as soon as you walk into The Academy to receive a western education. I'm not quite sure what formal, symbolic recognition adds in this instance.

I think you're defining nationalism down. There's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. Your definition of nationalism seems to be anyone who takes pride in their country without immediately issuing all these caveats about how racist Australia has been in the past etc. Nationalism is people in Serbia wanting a piece of surrounding countries etc. or people in Scotland wanting to break off from the UK.

 

[incentivation]

But it's not our country. Point.
Soldiers fought under the Australian government they elected, not the flag

Possibly not our 'land', but certainly our country. A country consists of more than mere 'terra firma'. I see the country as being defined more by the economic, social and political make up of the society which inhabits the land.

 

[dieburndie]

I think you're defining nationalism down. There's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. Your definition of nationalism seems to be anyone who takes pride in their country without immediately issuing all these caveats about how racist Australia has been in the past etc. Nationalism is people in Serbia wanting a piece of surrounding countries etc. or people in Scotland wanting to break off from the UK.

That's one form of nationalism, and those are extreme examples.

Being proud of your country when you did not contribute to the accomplishments you are proud of, is another form of nationalism.

 

[banco55]

That's one form of nationalism, and those are extreme examples.

Being proud of your country when you did not contribute to the accomplishments you are proud of, is another form of nationalism.

They are not really extreme. If you have any familiarity with foreign cultures you'll know that those feelings are quite common ie Mexicans who think Texas was stolen from them, Argentinians who want the Falklands back, Polish who want land back from Russia etc. There was a protest in Tehran on the weekend that 200 000 attended. They were protesting against the name of the "persian gulf" being changed. That is nationalism. Australia doesn't have anything similar.

You can be proud of your parents accomplishments without claiming them as your own. The inevitable result of your argument is that you can't be proud of your country.

I still think your definition is a misuse of the word "nationalism". It's like people who label every law and order measure adopted by the Government as "facist". The world eventually becomes meaningless. What you are describing is "patriotism".

 

[Iron]

Possibly not our 'land', but certainly our country. A country consists of more than mere 'terra firma'. I see the country as being defined more by the economic, social and political make up of the society which inhabits the land.

OK.
Economically, socially, politically, geographically, we are not the same country as the United Kingdom.
Sorry for the confusion. Better?

Look, I love Britain and the Monarchy and the history, literature, comedy, accents, teeth, ETC as much as anyone...But..wait..
I dont have the energy or will to lead a Mugabe-style Independence movement against the Imperialist British with their plots and schemings to destroy this contaree mun

 

[dieburndie]

They are not really extreme. If you have any familiarity with foreign cultures you'll know that those feelings are quite common ie Mexicans who think Texas was stolen from them, Argentinians who want the Falklands back, Polish who want land back from Russia etc. There was a protest in Tehran on the weekend that 200 000 attended. They were protesting against the name of the "persian gulf" being changed. That is nationalism. Australia doesn't have anything similar.

I'm not saying they are extreme because of infrequency, just that nationalism in that sense is a stronger force than that common in Australia.

You can be proud of your parents accomplishments without claiming them as your own. The inevitable result of your argument is that you can't be proud of your country.

No, you can be proud of whatever you want. The result of my argument is that it is irrational to be proud of your country.

I still think your definition is a misuse of the word "nationalism". It's like people who label every law and order measure adopted by the Government as "facist". The world eventually becomes meaningless. What you are describing is "patriotism".

Seriously, look the word up.
Using Fascism to describe any measure of law and order is misusing the term, as the definition of the ideology is clearly not applicable to such a situation.

This is not the case with nationalism. Look it up. Every definition I can find allows for the sense that I've been using the term in.
But I don't care, use patriotism if you're so uncomfortable with me correctly using a synonymous word...

 

[spyro14]

How can you say that you can't use the term Fascism to describe any measure of law. If a law is characterised by a extreme right wing authoritarian perspective, what else would you use to describe it?

 

[dieburndie]

How can you say that you can't use the term Fascism to describe any measure of law. If a law is characterised by a extreme right wing authoritarian perspective, what else would you use to describe it?

I meant calling any measure of law and order fascism rather than the action to which it applies is incorrect , in the same context banco55 originally suggested.

 

[spyro14]

right i see what your getting at

 

[_dhj_]

I'm in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" camp. Imo a republic declaration is something which a nation earns through historical struggle. There's no point in turning our backs on tradition merely for the sake of it. I feel that if it happens without a real catalyst or a struggle, and not just with a "we're Australians and we should be proud of it" sort of weak nationalism pushed by the elite few, it won't be as genuine or as worthwhile as something which will (probably) only happen once in history deserves to be.

 

[Iron]

The catalyst was the fall of Singapore and rise of neo-liberalism

 

[PrinceHarry]

The catalyst was the fall of Singapore and rise of neo-liberalism

Monarchy 4 Ever!

 

[what971]

There is no advantage of being a Republic. Being part of the British Empire is a glorious tradition that we should all be proud to be a part of.

 

[Graney]

There is no advantage of being a Republic.

Ron Paul says otherwise.