An alternative choice - UWS Law (1 Viewer)

[Spirits]

for anyone who wants to do law, but thinks they may not get the marks, don't forget the UWS law school. This one is really under-rated. UWS is a very new law school so it doesn't have the same reputation as some of the others, but the lecturers there are just as good. Infact lecturers often move from uni to uni and there are lecturers at UWS who came from UNSW/Usyd; and there are also lecturers at UNSW and Usyd who first taught at UWS. One UWS lecturer called K Oliver when to Usyd, and i know some students from that uni who now say that he is one of the best lecturers at usyd. So as can be seen, the UWS lecturers are just as good.

Some high school career advisors (such as at Baulko) regard UWS quite highly. Infact there are 2nd and 3rd year law students with UAIs in the high 90s who chose to go to UWS over Macq and UTS (HECS places) because their career advisors gave a glowing recommendation for the UWS law school. Some of these students post on BoS forums, so u can check with them if you have any questions.

So don't get carried away with status. UWS students are more than capable. Infact UWS mooting teams have traditionally performed very well (better than the "high profile" unis). Some notable achievements include:

In March 2004, a UWS team was ranked overall the best Australian team
in preliminary written and oral rounds of the Asia Pacific Regional
round of the Manfred Lachs Space Law Moot Court Competition held in
Sydney.

• In the Stetson International Environmental Law Moot Court
Competition, which involved 48 teams, the UWS team were ranked above
all other Australian teams for their written memorials, and defeated
two leading US environmental law schools in their oral arguments (a
mammoth feat considering UWS doesn't even teach environmental law).

• In September 2003, UWS won the Australian National Final of the Law
Council of Australia Family Law Mooting Competition.
<SCRIPT><!--D(["mb","
• In July 2003 at the Australasian Law Students Association Conference
in Brisbane, UWS won two of the six awards on offer.

• In July 2003 at the Australasian Law Students Association Conference
in Brisbane, UWS won two of the six awards on offer.

• Finally, in 2002, the UWS team achieved outstanding success by being
ranked second in an international negotiation competition held in
California and involving representatives from over 150 law schools
worldwide.

Last year, the UWS mooting team won the Constitutional law moot.

• Finally, in 2002, the UWS team achieved outstanding success by being
ranked second in an international negotiation competition held in
California and involving representatives from over 150 law schools
worldwide.

Last year, the UWS mooting team won the Constitutional law moot.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the reputation of UWS as a university is going to dramatically increase in the next couple of years. This is because UWS will soon become only the 2nd university in
Sydney to offer undergraduate medicine. Their newly built medical faculty (costing over $50 million dollars) will open in the next year i think, and a lot of &quot;high UAI&quot; students will start going there. There are students from James Ruse with UAIs close to a 100 who want to do medicine but don\'t get into NSW or Newcastle - they resort to going inter-state to lower profile medical schools. But from 2007/2008 they will probably choose UWS medical school.


</DIV>Good luck everyone!

 

[Spirits]

Re: If you want to do law / think you might not get in

• In July 2003 at the Australasian Law Students Association Conference
in Brisbane, UWS won two of the six awards on offer.

• Finally, in 2002, the UWS team achieved outstanding success by being
ranked second in an international negotiation competition held in
California and involving representatives from over 150 law schools
worldwide.

Last year, the UWS mooting team won the Constitutional law moot.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the reputation of UWS as a university is going to dramatically increase in the next couple of years. This is because UWS will soon become only the 2nd university in Sydney to offer undergraduate medicine. Their newly built medical faculty (costing over $50 million dollars) will open in the next year i think, and a lot of "high UAI" students will start going there. There are students from James Ruse with UAIs close to a 100 who want
to do medicine but don't get into NSW or Newcastle - they resort to going inter-state to lower profile medical schools. But from 2007/2008 they will probably choose UWS medical school.

Good luck everyone!

 

[Frigid]

Re: If you want to do law / think you might not get in

there is no question of the capability of UWS in some of the recent moots, but i disagree with a couple of your points.

1. what high school career advisers think, in my opinion, carries very little weight as to the strength of a law school. even if a career adviser has visited every single law school and spoken to faculty staff there, I don't think he/she can correctly discern the differences between them. certainly one should not attach the same weight to the opinion of a career adviser as to the opinion of a legal recruiter.

2. whether or not UWS has a med school does not affect the 'prestige' of its law school. even for those UAI 100 students (all 21 of them) who don't get into medicine, they might be tempted by the $5000 to $10000 p.a. scholarships from UNSW and USyd over UWS' offerings. moreover, there is no relationship between UAI 100 medical students and law students.

3. peanuts for peanuts, prestige is a factor to certain employers. this is clearly evident by the number of USyd/UNSW summer clerks at big firms. of course, that is not to say that all law students desire a summer clerkship at a big firm, nor does that mean being a UWS student you cannot gain a summer clerkship. there was a story in the SMH in 2001:

"'The University of New South Wales and the University of Sydney are regarded as first equal by the top-tier law firms [ie big commercial law firms]. It's been the same for the last 15 to 20 years,' says Michael Rose, Allens' national staff partner. Avril Henry, Clayton Utz's national human resources director, agrees: 'Most of the top tier firms target Sydney and UNSW.' ...

'ANU is a seriously good law school', says John Atanaskovic, a partner in Atanaskovic-Hartnell. Danny Gilbert, a partner in Gilbert & Tobin, names the 'three top law schools' as UNSW, Sydney and ANU...

After the top trio, Professor Don Harding, former dean of UNSW and now partner at Freehills, says the firm looks at other potential recruits on a 'person-to-person basis, although UTS has made its mark.'

4. i think, at the end of the day, recruitment partners favour the universities whence they came. It must be remembered that USyd law school was established in 1855http://www.law.usyd.edu.au/about/history.shtml, UNSW in 1971http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/about_us/history.asp, MQ in 1972http://www.law.mq.edu.au/, UTS in 1975http://www.law.uts.edu.au/about/history.html and UWS in 2001http://www.uws.edu.au/about/acadorg/schools/law#4 (although surely UWS had an earlier history than that?).

 

[neo o]

Re: If you want to do law / think you might not get in

Seriously Frigid, did this thread deserve a reply?

Personally I think that the content of law degrees is fairly generic across the board, with very few notable exceptions. However, as Frigid pointed out it's fairly misleading to say that the reputation of your university won't impact upon future employment.

There are students from James Ruse with UAIs close to a 100 who want
to do medicine but don't get into NSW or Newcastle - they resort to going inter-state to lower profile medical schools.

Yeah, to medical schools with a lower profile like the University of Melbourne :rofl:. While this has no relation to law, as a former Ruse student I can say that the majority of people from my year who didn't get UNSW, Melb or Newcastle offers did advanced science courses and then resat the UMAT.

 

[Frigid]

Re: If you want to do law / think you might not get in

Seriously Frigid, did this thread deserve a reply?

just in case those mythical Baulko students all suddenly get persuaded and change their preferences to UWS without having seen the complete picture.

 

[musik_junky]

Re: If you want to do law / think you might not get in

The last 2 posts leave me in stitches. Isn't the thread entitled "If you want to do law / think you might not get in". This thread isn't suggesting that UWS law school is better than USyd. All its saying is that if you don't get the marks for USyd, UWS is an option worth considering.

 

[_dhj_]

It is an option without a doubt, but original post seems like an advert for UWS rather than genuine advice.

 

[musik_junky]

It is an option without a doubt, but original post seems like an advert for UWS rather than genuine advice.

Did you change the thread title? Because now it has become a bit confusing. When it was "If you want to do law / think you might not get in" it was really obvious that this thread is intended for people who want to do law but think that they won't get into Usyd and UNSW. Now they may think something else.

 

[_dhj_]

tbh the content is more important than the title.

...and a title like that could be appropriate as intro of a radio advert for the UWS law school.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Did you change the thread title? Because now it has become a bit confusing. When it was "If you want to do law / think you might not get in" it was really obvious that this thread is intended for people who want to do law but think that they won't get into Usyd and UNSW. Now they may think something else.

I changed it for clarity. It now reflects the purpose of the post and clearly indicates its specificity to UWS.

 

[LaraB]

Re: If you want to do law / think you might not get in

just in case those mythical Baulko students all suddenly get persuaded and change their preferences to UWS without having seen the complete picture.

I'm sorry but i can't help laughing at teh ridiculous-ness of this whole argument...

Are any of you even Baulko/ex-Baulko students? If not, then shush because you can't possibly know what teh careers advisors etc say

If you are - are you out of your minds? Mrs Savage, yes, did highly support my decision to go to UWS, particularly as my reasons for diong so were sensible, not just "i'm too lazy to travel to the city" like some...

But, apart from Mrs Savage and i guess... Mrs Wakeling, Mr Dumas, Mrs Robinson and Steiglers, i can't think of any teacher who suggested i go to UWS...

I am THE ONLY baulko student from my year to do law at UWS and one of a very small handful who even bothered to put it as a preference.

The principal, i was told by the careers advisor, had to be strongly persuaded to even turn up to my scholarship presentation morning tea - shows how highly they think of UWS

So yes - that's my rant about BHHS related UWS opinion. I can't speak for a lot of the staff as i can onlys peak for those who i was close to, i.e. basically my HSC teachers and teh careers advisors, but i know very well the opinion of other teachers from hearsay and conevrsations with those i konw well.

Those who did support my choice to put UWS as my top preference had good reasons for doing so, those that didn't, well.. a few had good reasons for that too, a lot were simplystuck on the prestige/image thing... which was stupid since i never intended to go into fields where that mattered...

As far as careers advisors being useless - it's like anythnig, depends on the person. Baulko's careers advisor is excellent, well informed, does her research etc so her advice is valid in 99% of cases, particularly as she is quite happy to criticise the whole careers advisor role, especially within a selective school.

ALl of that aside - yes the original post may have had smoe dodgy cmoments - but none more so than similar posts displayed eralting to other institutions and these almost never attract teh same criticism. People get it - you all don't agree... they got it over and over and over and over again so there's no need to keep carrynig on about it.

Yes UWS has it's faults, but a person who was in my position would have been far better off at UWS than say, USyd or somewhere else given teh type of work i want to go into etc - it is not simply a case of discussing the quality of UWS but as always, of what you want out of it. I mean.. geez... I know i'm waaaaay happier with my D average/GPA and having topped a few units at UWS than friends who are only average students at other unis doing law... I alerady know from experience as far as work and the like goes i have a better chance at jobs with my kind of marks, even at UWS, than friends who have far lesser marks at the city unis...

SO that's my rant lol

EDIT: and no Frigid - this isn't directed at you or anything - more just a cmoment on the general discussion of the whole Baulko thing since i know the trouble myself and my brother had at Baulko given our decision to go to UWS compared to the support that the stereotypical Baulko-to-Usyd/UNSW/UTS or even Mac got...

 

[Spirits]

Lara, you got close to 99, went to Baulko and chose to do law at UWS?

 

[Tabris]

Here is one perspective of UWS Law on pg 13

http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/publications/reports/dr_aus_uni/Paper_Rating.pdf

 

[LaraB]

Lara, you got close to 99, went to Baulko and chose to do law at UWS?

yes.... i thought that was self evident....

 

[LaraB]

Here is one perspective of UWS Law on pg 13

http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/publications/reports/dr_aus_uni/Paper_Rating.pdf

yeh... how reputable sounding lol.. what a coincidence that melbourne just happens to be rated 1st or close in just about everything lol...

 

[melsc]

I have been at UWS for a year and I think it is a good choice for those who just can't quite make the cutoff at other uni's however even though I think the program is good and am sure the work is similar across the board, I do not think it is fair to 'sell' the uni to anyone, which uni you choose is ultimately up to you! What you want and need from it should factor into your choice not how others percieve it or how good someone tells you it is.

I think the best way to know if you will like a uni is go there, at least to an open day and not to listen to other students etc...because afterall we are all different.

I thought I would like UWS a lot and to some extent I really do, however there are somethings that I don't like which is fine, i've tried it and am now hoping to try someone else but that does not take away from the fact that some people like it and that is fine, in the end it is what you like, want and need, like anything some people like smooth peanut butter and others like crunchy, but you wont know if you like it until you try it for yourself, because as much as someone tells you its good, you will just never know!

 

[Frigid]

Re: If you want to do law / think you might not get in

EDIT: and no Frigid - this isn't directed at you or anything - more just a cmoment on the general discussion of the whole Baulko thing since i know the trouble myself and my brother had at Baulko given our decision to go to UWS compared to the support that the stereotypical Baulko-to-Usyd/UNSW/UTS or even Mac got...

no offence taken.

but i stick by my opinion of career advisers. all i remember him (it was a him in my school) doing was making me sit some silly program and... i think i got Arts or something.

 

[musik_junky]

I think the best way to know if you will like a uni is go there, at least to an open day and not to listen to other students etc...because afterall we are all different.

Speak to students who have gone to both UNSW and UWS law schools. Ask them what they think (btw. the ones i've spoken to say they are both the same).

 

[hYperTrOphY]

As I've said before:

Prioritise what is important to you: the specific course; it's structure; electives; location; atmosphere; reputation etc. Go to the open days, speak with the students and lecturers and base your decision on the factors you deem important. If reputation is of prime important, then perhaps UWS is not the university for you.

Although it is almost impossible for anyone to say with any degree of certainty, I do not believe that attending UWS will prevent you from achieving great things in the future. If I did feel that way, I most definitely would not have chosen to study here. It may be true that, when seeking employment, if you and another candidate (of whom attended a more prestigious uni) were of equal quality in all other respects, the employer would employ the applicant from the prestigious uni over you. However, that scenario relies on the conception that employers are prejudiced for/against condidates by mere fact of the uni they attended - something which appears to be changing. Quite a few UWS graduates have, for example, attained positions in top tier law firms, which demonstrates both the changing attitudes of employers and the fact that UWS produces quality graduates.

It may also be true that employment rates and starting salaries are lower for UWS graduates relative to competing unis. However, this does not prove that the teaching quality is inferior or your chances of successful employment are diminished by the fact you studied at UWS. This statistic may simply be the consequence of the fact that UWS has a lower UAI cut-off, which means it is quite plausible to suggest that the cohort at UWS is probably less gifted and/or hard-working than that of other unis. Thus the lower starting salaries and employment opportunities is, I would suggest, more to do with the student himself or herself, than any fault of the uni (except, perhaps, the marketing team). In other words, it all depends upon you: it will be your grades, your experience, your achievements that will have the greatest influence on how successful you are in the future; not simply the uni you attended.

Although I have never attended any other unis, I have spoken to quite a few friends who are at various others, including USyd and UNSW. One of the major differences seems to be lecturers. At UWS, every lecturer/tutor I have had has been genuinely interested in all students' development and understanding, are willing to provide assistance, have consultations, speak over the phone or via email, answer questions on webCT etc, at other unis they seem to be far less willing to provid such assistance. It may very well be the case that my friend's experiences are not representative of most lecturers, but that has been a consistent comment made. Further, the students are apparently friendlier, less competitive, and more tolerant at UWS - of course, I can't be certain of this.

UWS may not be the university for you. A better course may be offered somewhere else. If, however, UWS does satisfy your needs better than any other uni, do not choose to study somewhere else simply because of a misconception that you will be forever doomed and unemployed. Such is not the case. Good luck.

 

[Optophobia]

yeh... how reputable sounding lol.. what a coincidence that melbourne just happens to be rated 1st or close in just about everything lol...

They're either first or second for everything...