Australian Political Parties (2 Viewers)

[chubbaraff]

Working Class revolution

When you say we believe the aus working class has rev potential do you mean that your view differs only on the aus situation or you believe first world working classes are incapable because their is plenty of evidence to contradict that. In saying that do you not approve of the Lenninist construction of the revolutionary party and the vanguard party in the first world? By claimig to be a trotskyist i guess that means you have a good understanding of theory of permanent revolution vs two stage revolution, what are your thoughts?

 

[Comrade nathan]

I never said i was Trotskyite, i said resistance are.

In the first world, imperialism has created a strong and large middle class and a stronger capitalist class, which allows them to exploit workers in the third world, rather then creating factories here which increase the working class. When the third world is liberated class antagonism will increase here as they will have to and find it easier to make products here. So a strong Leninist grip in a party isnt really needed here since we are not in revolutionary times.

The best thing socialist parties can do is try to gain seats in state and federal government, increase grass roots politics, rebuild strong union force and support and give aid to revolutions in third world countries. The part backing should come from middle and working class. Also drop the Stalin v Trotsky theories

Resistance is living in a fantasy world where revolution is possible in first world country before third world.

 

[chubbaraff]

Not that im particularly partial on the issue, but that argument stems from the argument of the 70's where the conclusions of the May June France uprising where the masses of students radicalised by the vietnam confict took over factories and brought de gaull to his knees and at this time the FCP toned down the protests and occupations so as to capture what they thought what was a certain electoral win, and in the face of instability the french went with de gaulle.
The Point: The absence of a vanguard party and the electoralist approach of the FCP quelled the chance of a first world revolution. For a CP to commit itself to electoralism is a betrayal of of broad social moveemnts like the one against iraq war because it asserts that the parliament is an accurate representation of a populations gut feeling of politicians and their processes which i can definately say is false. On aiding the third world revolutions, resistance is organising a contingent to travel to venezuela in august 2005 to the world youth social forum or something like that and the past years work in resistance has been dominated by discussion and also heavy work around venezuela that aws manifested in the conference held at UTS with Leonal Vivas ambassador of Venezuela, their may be a reason why your one of the only Young people in the CP nathan. The afct thjat we did run in the most seats than any other Socialist tendency (that is SA) and in all the state senates and have been the main socialist tendency organising on high schools ( I could give you more information on our mock ballot in wollongong or our lower the voting age debate with labor and greens if you wish) and that socialist alliances tendency in victora led by Craig Johnston that is worksers first has huge backing is precise proof that we do all those things you mentioned. I respect your decision to join the CP becuase it was a well informed one by I think you should deeply consider what I have just said because sectarianism and isolation of the CP are a huge endightment on any left agenda... we cant get anywhere without unity.

 

[ArgueEverything]

I never said i was Trotskyite, i said resistance are.

In the first world, imperialism has created a strong and large middle class and a stronger capitalist class, which allows them to exploit workers in the third world, rather then creating factories here which increase the working class. When the third world is liberated class antagonism will increase here as they will have to and find it easier to make products here. So a strong Leninist grip in a party isnt really needed here since we are not in revolutionary times.

The best thing socialist parties can do is try to gain seats in state and federal government, increase grass roots politics, rebuild strong union force and support and give aid to revolutions in third world countries. The part backing should come from middle and working class. Also drop the Stalin v Trotsky theories

Resistance is living in a fantasy world where revolution is possible in first world country before third world.

The "middle class" in all industrialised nations is rapidly dissappearing as the wealth gap continues to grow. "Proletarianisation" of the middle strata of white-collar professionals has been going on since the 60s and has been well documented by numerous sociologists. You would do well to take this into account before dismissing the possibility of revolution in the industrialised world (and I'd remind you that Resistance doesn't neglect the electoral process as a route for their revolution). Also, remember Marx's distinction between a class-for-itself and a class-in-itself; just because the average worker today (whether a labourer or a professional) seems to lack class consciousness, doesn't mean the potential isn't there. It is, of course, up to a political party to turn that potential into reality - something that the kind of defeatism you endorse will never allow.

Revolutions in the first world will have enormous repercussions on the third world, but not the other way around. For your theory to work, there would have to be a coordinated series of revolutions across the entire Third world. If they happened in a piecemeal fashion, they would easily be crushed by the capitalist countries (either by economic embargoes or by brute force).

Also, keep in mind that just because exploitation of third world workers may stop under your scenario, that doesn't mean the capitalists won't suffice by once again focusing their exploitation on the home-grown proletariat, as they had in the 19th century. The removal of the third world's workforce is NOT a sufficient condition for the collapse of capitalism, as you suggest.

 

[Comrade nathan]

there would have to be a coordinated series of revolutions across the entire Third world

This happened last centuary in Asia and eastern Europe, and in most thrid world countries there are large resistence to imperialism. Although these countreis, revolutionary parties could not for see the revisionism that has occured and did not continue the revolution to remove the reactionaries, counter revolutionaries and revisionist from power.

There are countries such as Nepal, Peru, and Brazil where Maoist control most of the country side. In Nepal they were even able to blockade the Capital for a few days mid last year. In Venezuela the are currently under going a national bourgeois revolution and are nationalizing large industry espically oil.

The "middle class" in all industrialised nations is rapidly dissappearing as the wealth gap continues to grow. "Proletarianisation" of the middle strata of white-collar professionals has been going on since the 60s and has been well documented by numerous sociologists.

Class is not determined by wealth, these sociologist are from the school of bourgeois thought, so they determine class by wealth rather by their relation to the means of production.

The removal of the third world's workforce is NOT a sufficient condition for the collapse of capitalism, as you suggest.

In a way it is. Capitalism of the 21st centuary only survives on imperialism. The collapse of Imperialism will lead to the collapse of capitalism. The reason big buisness and little buisness make such profit is because of cheap products made from third world countries.

 

[chubbaraff]

As i said before my awesome reply got lost twice by IE, i have just thought of an analogy to your theory that may bring some light on it. If someone sufferes a bad leg wound and has it amputated, its not a precondition for their death but beheading is, even though this is quite grousome, no love lost to the system. The school of the bougeoise thought stuff is bullshit, you know neo0liberlism is killing small business, this is what he means about proletarianisation. TYour theory regects the work of first world socialists as futile. Are the CP so streched that they cannot adhear to revolution at home and abroad, resistance seems to have no problem with this. In august we are sending a brigade to Venezuela, if only the CP was that internationalist. It is definatlely not a national bourgeoise revolution. their is nothing bourgeoise about land reform and nationalisation comrade you know it!

 

[Comrade nathan]

Are the CP so streched that they cannot adhear to revolution at home and abroad, resistance seems to have no problem with this.

I am not a representative for the CPA.

 

[chubbaraff]

Are you a member, thats what i understood from previous posts, because if you are a member you definitely are...?

 

[Comrade nathan]

A new member and every members views are slightly different so i can hardly speak for them all.

 

[Korn]

The outdoor Recreation Party

 

[chubbaraff]

Yeh, a bunch of right wing politically immature bigots!

 

[Korn]

Yeh, a bunch of right wing politically immature bigots!

Let me guess, your a leftist

 

[chubbaraff]

No shit , you want to get into politics dont join a one issue party, they should be outlawed, for example as much as I dislike the CEC, I accept them as a party because there life involves more then their 4WD's, fishing line and green bashing. A bit of commonsense and these parties would stay exactly where they belong, over the dinner table on saturday night after a few drinks.

 

[Korn]

No shit , you want to get into politics dont join a one issue party, they should be outlawed, for example as much as I dislike the CEC, I accept them as a party because there life involves more then their 4WD's, fishing line and green bashing. A bit of commonsense and these parties would stay exactly where they belong, over the dinner table on saturday night after a few drinks.

Nah, only reason i like the Outdoor Recreation Party, is that some ex-members of the now defunct shooters party are part of it. Personally i think there should be more restrictions on 4WD

 

[Atotoi]

what degrees are you guys doing???
You seem to know alot about this whole geopolitical movement and current affairs, yet i havent seen many of you in other forums..cept for good ol Korn of course.. and my comrade nathan...


okay, well to cut the question short then..
What degree's do ArgueEveryting and Chubbaraff do?

 

[chubbaraff]

I'm not doing a degree I'm in year 12. I hope to do politics at some stage though, it would be awesome. But really you don't have to be doin Pol Sci. to know this stuff this is just from reading the intelligent press (Plug for Green Left Weekly). ZI dont get to post often because too busy with yr 12 atm , maybe at uni ill crank it up.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Im doing B arts Society & Culture, and Anthropology & Sociology. Well i plan to major in them, but i may do history and Ancient History.

 

[Atotoi]

i love history and i was great at it... im starting to ponder whether i should really be doing a degree in MedSci after all.....

 

[james_chappo]

Politcal System

The vast majority of Australian politicians are hypocrits and liars. I loath the current Australian government and John Howard. I acknowledge that The Liberal Party has successfully managed the economy, however, social issues such as the mistreatment of refugees, the influence of fundamentalist christian ideology and numerous other conservative residues agitate me. Every party has its advantages and disadvantages, but for a person like me, someone with a conscience and a heart, the Liberal Party just doesn't meet my needs. Additionally, the lack of integrity amongst MP's of the Liberal Party also greatly annoys me. Australia needs an honest, reliable-social democratic government to become a 'dream nation'. However, I am highly skeptical that such a government will exist.

Chappo

 

[transcendent]

The vast majority of Australian politicians are hypocrits and liars. I loath the current Australian government and John Howard. I acknowledge that The Liberal Party has successfully managed the economy, however, social issues such as the mistreatment of refugees, the influence of fundamentalist christian ideology and numerous other conservative residues agitate me. Every party has its advantages and disadvantages, but for a person like me, someone with a conscience and a heart, the Liberal Party just doesn't meet my needs. Additionally, the lack of integrity amongst MP's of the Liberal Party also greatly annoys me. Australia needs an honest, reliable-social democratic government to become a 'dream nation'. However, I am highly skeptical that such a government will exist.

Chappo

Sorry, I feel the same way you do, but I would like to introduce you to apathy.
This is apathy:





















I'm sure once you get to know him, life will be so much better.