Australian Politics (2 Viewers)

[Garygaz]

Some American peddler of fortune cookie soundbites with little actual substance no doubt.

ahaha fuck. i've read up on plato, epicurus, aquinas, aristotle, descartes and even more modern day philosophers who fuse philosophy and astronomy such as lawrence krauss. how are the clouds looking up there today?

 

[funkshen]

yeah but garygaz try understanding hegel without going to uni

only a nutter like a philosophy professor could explain hegel to you (his opinion of hegel rather). same with derrida (not implying it's worth knowing), saussure,

same with a lot of pre-socratics like anaxagoras, leucippus, heraclitus (particularly) and parmeneides.

you don't have to go to uni to read philosophy, though. but there is a point to academy-like venues to discuss and reflect etc etc

edit: of course, these modern academics (unis) then go on to spit out garbage like A POST-DELEUZIAN READING OF MY DOG'S BREAKFAST.

 

[Garygaz]

sure there can be philosophers who provide something, possibly immeasurable, to society. though i'm much more of an advocate for degrees that actually have a practical use in the labour force, engineering, teaching, business, medicine, law. a lot of people who go to uni seem to do these fine-arts degrees and i simply ask, 'why?'

p.s and what ratio of people who obtain a degree in philosophy will actually make use of it through some kind of contribution to the field or society?

 

[cosmo kramer]

deconstruct deconstruction

 

[funkshen]

sure there can be philosophers who provide something, possibly immeasurable, to society. though i'm much more of an advocate for degrees that actually have a practical use in the labour force, engineering, teaching, business, medicine, law. a lot of people who go to uni seem to do these fine-arts degrees and i simply ask, 'why?'

p.s and what ratio of people who obtain a degree in philosophy will actually make use of it through some kind of contribution to the field or society?

i sympathise with your arguments to an extent, as most critical-thinkers would. of course, technical/managerial/vocational degrees that have a practical use in the field are socially and privately valuable, and they are compensated thusly. but those who ask 'why?' are also socially and privately valuable, thought not always in their own lifetimes (although i would argue that capitalism incentivises such people to gain recognition during lifetime).

some people who do 'fine-arts degrees', e.g. the notorious case of the student majoring in norse literature, are genuinely enthused by the subject and publish books, teach etc - they manufacture their own incomes through voluntary transaction.

of course, most of the people who obtain a degree in philosophy/many other 'critical thinking' disciplines, will not in turn make a huge contribution to society based on that learning. although one could argue that it makes them better people (who knows?). but what of it? even if they become a turkey processor, they'll pay off their student loans eventually (such choices do not lead to unemployment but to lower income).

this isn't an argument for universal tertiary education or anything of that sort. the whole point is about offering the people choice to continue their learning - and we know that choice is important, or rather, allocation does not work (communism derp). an important part of this choice is the cost of a degree (it shouldnt be free), future income etc.

 

[Garygaz]

i totally agree that it shouldn't be free. i'm half irish and one of the things they 'had' over there for years was free tertiary education. essentially EVERYONE went to uni whether or not they intended to go into a degree which they were genuinely interested in. the prospect of living off of your parents for a few extra years whilst living the 'uni' lifestyle is a pretty tempting thing. but alas, along with many of the policies of ireland, it has currently landed them in the shitter. half of the degrees in uni are completely useless anyways, business, engineering from what i've heard (partially) all are very job specific and your uni education seemingly never eventuates in practical use.

ugh im drunk and about to go out, i'll write a more comprehendable response tomorrow.

 

[funkshen]

half of the degrees in uni are completely useless anyways, business, engineering from what i've heard (partially) all are very job specific and your uni education seemingly never eventuates in practical use.

"I can hire a philosophy major and teach him everything he'd have learned in business school in six weeks. But if I hire a business major I'll never be able to teach him to think."

 

[Garygaz]

that's assuming you can teach someone to think, which i believe you are either born with the ability to do or you are not. you can enhance it, though you cannot teach it.

 

[Lentern]

ahaha fuck. i've read up on plato, epicurus, aquinas, aristotle, descartes and even more modern day philosophers who fuse philosophy and astronomy such as lawrence krauss. how are the clouds looking up there today?

What a profound impact it's had on you.

For the record I never/am not studying philosophy at university though have naught but respect for someone who does.

 

[Garygaz]

What a profound impact it's had on you

everything is subjective, including your opinion on me

 

[Lentern]

everything is subjective, including your opinion on me

Just to be clear, your grasp of philosophy isn't gimmicky fortune cookie soundbites with little substance?

 

[Garygaz]

no, nor is it comprehensive

 

[noworriez1]

its the
eye of the tiger
its the thrill of the fight

 

[Rafy]

Ah, I've been waiting for a Lyne/New England poll for some time. Makes sober reading for Oakeshott and Windsor.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...hott-defy-voters/story-fn59niix-1226174598855

As suspected, Oakeshott is gone for all money. Windsor is in a better position, but still very much on the nose. Both have had their primary votes almost halved.

 

[Garygaz]

democracy shouldn't work in a way where a single mp can push his agenda and have a whole party bend to his will. not that the current parties are that much better.

 

[Lentern]

Ah, I've been waiting for a Lyne/New England poll for some time. Makes sober reading for Oakeshott and Windsor.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...hott-defy-voters/story-fn59niix-1226174598855

As suspected, Oakeshott is gone for all money. Windsor is in a better position, but still very much on the nose. Both have had their primary votes almost halved.

Hopefully this puts to bed this idea that in Oz the electorate rewards "conviction" "stand up for what you believe in" and all that.

 

[cheese_cheese]

Rob Oakshot is absolutely gone. Tony Windsor will probably hang on possibly though.

 

[Rafy]

Speaker Resigns

The Speaker Harry Jenkins has resigned.

He is visiting the Governor General at the moment. This will require an immediate Speakership election. Labor will try to get Slipper up.


It seems Labor have done a deal with Slipper and Jenkins resigned to make way.

With Slipper as Speaker it's 76-73 instead of 75-74. A real game changer. The government could for example ignore Wilkie and his pokie demands and the Craig Thomson scandal loses its bite.

 

[Rafy]

A DEAL has been done to give Labor an extra number in minority government by pushing aside Harry Jenkins as speaker and replacing him with maverick Liberal backbencher Peter Slipper.

Both sides expect an election for speaker within hours and Peter Slipper to be the endorsed candidate of the Labor Party.

The Coalition has formally been informed Mr Slipper is standing as speaker.

It has resolved not to run a Coalition candidate for the post, ensuring Mr Slipper’s election.

Mr Slipper is expected to resign from the party, after a series of internal wrangles, to enable him to become speaker.

Sources said Mr Jenkins visited Ms Gillard in her office at 7.30am today where his resignation was discussed.

The Prime Minister the contacted Leader of the House Anthony Albanese, who spoke to Mr Slipper about 8.30am.

It’s understood Mr Slipper agreed to be Labor’s candidate for the post, after which Mr Albanese called a meeting of caucus.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-jenkins-resigns/story-fn59niix-1226204376033

 

[qawe]

A DEAL has been done to give Labor an extra number in minority government by pushing aside Harry Jenkins as speaker and replacing him with maverick Liberal backbencher Peter Slipper.

Both sides expect an election for speaker within hours and Peter Slipper to be the endorsed candidate of the Labor Party.

The Coalition has formally been informed Mr Slipper is standing as speaker.

It has resolved not to run a Coalition candidate for the post, ensuring Mr Slipper’s election.

Mr Slipper is expected to resign from the party, after a series of internal wrangles, to enable him to become speaker.

Sources said Mr Jenkins visited Ms Gillard in her office at 7.30am today where his resignation was discussed.

The Prime Minister the contacted Leader of the House Anthony Albanese, who spoke to Mr Slipper about 8.30am.

It’s understood Mr Slipper agreed to be Labor’s candidate for the post, after which Mr Albanese called a meeting of caucus.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-jenkins-resigns/story-fn59niix-1226204376033

I hope he and craig thomson get kicked out of parliament