Best degrees for atheists who want to debate creationists? (2 Viewers)

[Cookie182]

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Would first year geology and biology be suitable?

 

[LordPc]

LOL!

if only I could know your though processes in the lead up to your decision to create this thread

anyway, if you became a priest, you would be around other priests and religious folk more than usual and hence have plenty of opportunities to debate creationists

 

[Kwayera]

First year bio and geo subjects are pretty basic, AFAIK. Zoology (and thus evolution) was focused on in second year and refined in third year. Geology was much the same.

 

[Cookie182]

Thanks for the advice,

But I kinda think being a priest is mutually exclusive with atheism lol.

In all seriousness though, I just want to know what degree will bring me closest to the materialist truth about the universe so far...

a vanilla Bsc?

Electives in quantum physics, cosmology, evolutionary biology, molecular biology, earth history and some philosophy??

 

[Kwayera]

All of the above, although you don't need to do degrees in them to have an understanding.

 

[Cookie182]

First year bio and geo subjects are pretty basic, AFAIK. Zoology (and thus evolution) was focused on in second year and refined in third year. Geology was much the same.

Thanks.

I'm just finding that my interests are swaying far beyond my BCom (Finance)...a predominately Christian field (rich american bankers).

Do you feel a Bsc puts you on an easy plateau...

I was debating a few J Witnesss's the other day...full blown creationists. It wasn't exactly hard, but tbh I was "faking" my knowledge of evolution. Its not that I question its truth but at this moment religious people are correct when they accuse me of taking it on "blind faith"- I believe it but really know nothing about it nor do I about anythng geological/cosmological. All I have is my knowledge that the scientific method was correctly employed when it produced these theories and I have as much trust as one can epistemically have in it.

Its time the real education began...

Do you think atheism is actually a legitimate reason to study science and motivate someone through the degree?

I "hinted" at my atheism when I was discussing transferring to science with a coordinator and they gave me a strange look...

 

[Cookie182]

Most ppl find this motivation strange I admit...

I get the vibe that a lot of students are studying to get a job or becuase they have some specific interest/research idea to a known problem...

Is it common to study purely for the pursuit of knowledge and in some way "spiritual" (which I will define in a materialistic sense of "knwoing truth") attainment about the universe?

What I am getting at is when you study science to a high level (any of the common disciplines) do you see the world differently? At a micro level? Thinking in terms of particles and processes and asking more questions?

Or is just a drop of 25k that I could get by local library visits?

 

[Kwayera]

Well, I wouldn't say my atheism drove me to study science - more the other way around almost, though I was never religious. But having a scientific background really is very helpful in debates I find, especially with IDers/creationists.

 

[Kwayera]

M
What I am getting at is when you study science to a high level (any of the common disciplines) do you see the world differently? At a micro level? Thinking in terms of particles and processes and asking more questions?

I've found that I do look at the world more analytically, logically. But then, I'm not sure if that isn't how it's always seen things, lol.

 

[Cookie182]

Well, I wouldn't say my atheism drove me to study science - more the other way around almost, though I was never religious. But having a scientific background really is very helpful in debates I find, especially with IDers/creationists.

Yeah it is interesting, as your in the correct order. Would you laugh if you asked a science student why they are studying and they said they were passionate through their atheism?

I guess for me, I have the same zeal and enquiry that many religious people (mistakenly) have about finding the "truth" (or closest constitutent). Obviously I am an atheist (the simplest reason possible) because religion has failed to produce satisfactory answers about the universe to me. however, unlike my religious pals I am not lazy. I won't just take what I'm told and believe it because the work is done (even though deep deep down you feel uneasy about it). The only way forward I see is to study the universe for myself. Logically, this leads me to science.

So in a round about way thats how atheism gets me to science.

Having said that I have always had an interest in science for its own sake (did Phy and Chem in high school). But now Im not sure what science to take up nor which major would be at all useful with my current degree? Any ideas Kway?

I was looking into geology, could broadly fit with commerce, but it is very focused- doesn't really delve beyond the earth itself into life processes like evolution or any kind of physics (with out lots of extra electives). Obviously theoretical physics would be a gemstone degree in udnerstanding the universe so far, but I'm only average (band 5 in HSC 2 Unit) at maths...physics looks intimidating

 

[Cookie182]

I've found that I do look at the world more analytically, logically. But then, I'm not sure if that isn't how it's always seen things, lol.

Yeah its hard to know whether it is the direct effect of the degree. I guess I could say the same after two years of finance/economics, yet they would be more limited then science.

I guess in some perfect world we could both not have to work and take up a BA in philosophy. Now thats when our critical skills would sharpen (I guess I also have that option against doing Bsc, but I think a Bsc is more respected).

Edit: I have a lot of respect for you (and anyone that studies science on its own). Its not that I don't like commerce, but I got wrapped in our capitalist system (propogated through ego-UAI syndrome) and choose a "leading to high paying job" degree, a decision which I often think is foolish, because as I mature I find my mind wandering further away from the study I am paying for and more towards extra curricular reading about the nature/truth of life. I now think the latter is of far more importance, but our vocational, bogan majority would think otherwise

 

[Cookie182]

Well, I wouldn't say my atheism drove me to study science - more the other way around almost, though I was never religious. But having a scientific background really is very helpful in debates I find, especially with IDers/creationists.

In my elementary understanding, the more I look into science and the nature of things, the further I move away from the possibly of intelligence.

Driving home today on the radio they discussed what happens to our stomach after 3 days of no eating- a process of self-destruction, where the body literally begins to eat itself. Then I think of the millions dieing around the world of purely starvation. If a designer exists, they have a lot to answer for... (and you can't blame this one on original sin!)

...

 

[Kwayera]

Yeah it is interesting, as your in the correct order. Would you laugh if you asked a science student why they are studying and they said they were passionate through their atheism?

Nah. Lots of people I've heard of who had "deconverted" to atheism becoming very passionate about learning about, well, real truth rather than religious truth, and that I can very much understand.

I guess for me, I have the same zeal and enquiry that many religious people (mistakenly) have about finding the "truth" (or closest constitutent). Obviously I am an atheist (the simplest reason possible) because religion has failed to produce satisfactory answers about the universe to me. however, unlike my religious pals I am not lazy. I won't just take what I'm told and believe it because the work is done (even though deep deep down you feel uneasy about it). The only way forward I see is to study the universe for myself. Logically, this leads me to science.

So in a round about way thats how atheism gets me to science.

That's certainly a noble thing.

Having said that I have always had an interest in science for its own sake (did Phy and Chem in high school). But now Im not sure what science to take up nor which major would be at useful with my current degree? Any ideas Kway?

Start at the beginning - bio.

I was looking into geology, could broadly fit with commerce, but it is very focused- doesn't really delve beyond the earth itself into life processes like evolution or any kind of physics. Obviously theoretical physics would be a gemstone degree in udnerstanding the universe so far, but I'm only average (band 5 in HSC 2 Unit) at maths...physics looks intimidating

Theoretical physics is a bitch mathematically and conceptually. You really have to have had an extensive background in physics and maths in general to tackle the theoretical stuff. Shudder.

 

[Cookie182]

Nah. Lots of people I've heard of who had "deconverted" to atheism becoming very passionate about learning about, well, real truth rather than religious truth, and that I can very much understand.



That's certainly a noble thing.



Start at the beginning - bio.



Theoretical physics is a bitch mathematically and conceptually. You really have to have had an extensive background in physics and maths in general to tackle the theoretical stuff. Shudder.

Cheers, yea I'm electing bio next session, intro evolution subject anyway. I'll just take it as it comes, interest will lead to itnerest I guess (might take geo as well, although I would be happy with an basic understanding of geo).

Yea thats it with physics, unless your a real math person it would be a struggle...but hey thats the beauty of the scientific method, I'll leave the hard yards to the people that can do it. I'll read off a summarised version of their findings and enjoy the knowledge.

So bio...is there much work along the lines of macroevolution, zoology etc (my uni seems to encourage you to go down this strand or the micro strand). In combination with a commerce degree and obviously hnours/masters, would you look at say careers in environmental consulting or something?

What do you plan on doing?

 

[Cookie182]

Nah. Lots of people I've heard of who had "deconverted" to atheism becoming very passionate about learning about, well, real truth rather than religious truth, and that I can very much understand.

That is a good point. In my experience, the world totally lacks real scientific knowledge. In many ways the majority of the population reveals "religious undertones" if you question them deep enough. That is, if I ask most adults I know who have no surface interest in religion, little science education etc (just kind of blue collar type ppl) many will still eventually produce "I don't know" or "Adam and eve" to the question "where did man come from?" Religion has invade our education at a deep level. When you start to think about the world and consciously conclude that your an atheist, unless you go on and begin the search for real scientific truths yourself, you will effectively be left with no explanations about anything at all.

 

[Kwayera]

So bio...is there much work along the lines of macroevolution, zoology etc (my uni seems to encourage you to go down this strand or the micro strand). In combination with a commerce degree and obviously hnours/masters, would you look at say careers in environmental consulting or something?

For environmental consulting you need to have a background in geoscience - not just geology, but also geography (human and physical). For example, my degree (Marine Science) encompasses mostly biology and geoscience, and I'm majoring in both. But to get into consulting, you generally have to have a background in GIS to be hireable.

 

[Cookie182]

For environmental consulting you need to have a background in geoscience - not just geology, but also geography (human and physical). For example, my degree (Marine Science) encompasses mostly biology and geoscience, and I'm majoring in both. But to get into consulting, you generally have to have a background in GIS to be hireable.

Ok cheers. Perhaps I should look at a geography major then, I loved geography in highschool.

We have two GIS subjects at my uni. A geography major would also prob combine well with economics. The problem is I only have about 90 credits I can add on.

Is a science degree without any chemistry or physics worth much?

I could take intro geology units, 3 bio units (upto 2nd yr ecology), env physics, biogeography, GIS, Remote Sensing etc and fit it all, but would this be a worth while major?

I'm guessing it would at the very least give me breadth and begin to give me answers to my materialist ponderments.

 

[KFunk]

I guess in some perfect world we could both not have to work and take up a BA in philosophy. Now thats when our critical skills would sharpen (I guess I also have that option against doing Bsc, but I think a Bsc is more respected).

My personal opinion is that surface level philosophy is very useful for challenging god and the typical creationist arguments. However, I have found that truly critical philosophy has made me somewhat more cynical towards the conception of reason as the 'ultimate arbitrator' and leaves me unable to rule out god entirely.

 

[Cookie182]

or I could begin the law degree I'm enrolled in...lol

 

[KFunk]

Also, I find it interesting that your approach to education in this case is to work towards justifying a personal conviction (similar to many entering a theological seminary?), compared to an exercise in open discovery.