Boat People (4 Viewers)

[MoonlightSonata]

What exactly do you base that assertion on? The whole compensation and having to give land back assertion.

Sorry what I meant was do you know anything about what native title is, where it exists, how it is extinguished or do you pull everything for your arse?

He has no idea about it, that's the sad thing. It reminds me of the mass hysteria and ignorance around the time Mabo was decided. People thought Aborigines would be coming and taking their backyards

 

[Lozacious]

What exactly do you base that assertion on? The whole compensation and having to give land back assertion.

The aboriginals just want us to say sorry, that's all they wan't. They are really fair dinkum about reconcilliation, i'm sure that they will like us and accept our apology and expect nothing else.

<END SARCASM>

He has no idea about it, that's the sad thing. It reminds me of the mass hysteria and ignorance around the time Mabo was decided. People thought Aborigines would be coming and taking their backyards

You can't talk, you're a thief anyway.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

The aboriginals just want us to say sorry, that's all they wan't. They are really fair dinkum about reconcilliation, i'm sure that they will like us and accept our apology and expect nothing else.

<END SARCASM>

You didn't address his question.

What do you base your assertion on? What is the legal justification behind your claim that sorry = compensation?

 

[Lozacious]

You didn't address his question.

What do you base your assertion on? What is the legal justification behind your claim that sorry = compensation?

And you haven't answered mine. Why are they so eager for us to say "sorry"? It's really that they want us to say sorry isn't it? They wan't to make friends with us.

Sorry.. Indicates a) remorse and b) being at fault. Of which, we suffer neither. They were lucky to have won Mabo. The notion of Terra Nulius still does apply, because the land DID belong to no one.

Your claims here are, again, utterly illogical on a number of levels. Firstly, you make the mistake of believing a human being can be owned. Unless you believe in slavery, humans cannot be owned.

You can't talk, you abuse rights all the time.

Secondly, you ignore the historical fact that children were taken from their parents. What race they are is entirely irrelevant.

Apparently not. For two reasons. They were half caste children, but apparently we are supposed to say sorry to the Aboriginals as a whole.. The second reason being that more white children have been taken from their parents by the government for their own good, which is what the aboriginals were taken for, than aboriginals. Are we going to say sorry to the whole Australian population.

(Might I add that you group people into extremely generalised categories like this all the time. This is the most fundamental failure of your way of thinking. It completely obfuscates any real discussion of an issue. I am referring here to calling everyone who disagrees with you "left".)

They generally are left..

Lastly, even if we go along with your ridiculous argument, your claim that "they were as much white as they were black" does not entitle one of those "joint owners" to take from the other. If you own a bike in joint ownership with a younger brother, you don't have the right to take the bike from him.

This isn't a question of join ownership.

No, the government was there. It's constituents may have changed, but the government was there.

lol. Muslims are still there also. (unfortu...)

And don't try to say that this isn't a racial issue, or that i can't generalise, because if this is the case, then your whole arguement is flawed also. Why should we say sorry to ALL aboriginals.. We didn't steal every single one of their children.

 

[erawamai]

Sorry.. Indicates a) remorse and b) being at fault. Of which, we suffer neither. They were lucky to have won Mabo. The notion of Terra Nulius still does apply, because the land DID belong to no one.

Can you please, I'm begging you, please tell us all where you get the idea that if the Australian government says sorry

1) compensation is going to have to be paid to ATSI people and

2) land must be 'given back' to ATSI people.

 

[Lozacious]

Can you please, I'm begging you, please tell us all where you get the idea that if the Australian government says sorry

1) compensation is going to have to be paid to ATSI people and

2) land must be 'given back' to ATSI people.

Well then enlighten me on why it is that they want us to say sorry so badly?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

And you haven't answered mine. Why are they so eager for us to say "sorry"? It's really that they want us to say sorry isn't it? They wan't to make friends with us.

You should ask yourself a simple question. Why do people say sorry to others? By your reasoning, people should never apologise.

Sorry.. Indicates a) remorse

You don't feel bad for them? I'm not too concerned with arguing about that. That's just a poor reflection on your character.

and b) being at fault. Of which, we suffer neither.

You personally don't, but the government did do these things. Even if responsibility is not made out for the past, the current circumstances of inequality provides more than enough reason to help them in their current state.

The notion of Terra Nulius still does apply, because the land DID belong to no one.

There were people with their own customs, rules, religion and society living in Australia. In what possible way did the land belong to no-one?

 

[erawamai]

Well then enlighten me on why it is that they want us to say sorry so badly?

Actually the Aboriginal community is rather indifferent as to the sorry thing. It's more a middle class white guilt thing thats gone out of fashion. However it is symbolically important to say sorry if you fucked up. I hope you say sorry when you fuck things up for other people. Of course unless you get your jollys out of that kind of thing.

Answer the question mathmite. It's a really simple chance for you to justify something you say.

Can you please, I'm begging you, please tell us all where you get the idea that if the Australian government says sorry

1) compensation is going to have to be paid to ATSI people and

2) land must be 'given back' to ATSI people.

If the commonwealth gov. said sorry, they would be expected to cough up a lot of money and land

So justify your opinion. Back it up.

 

[Lozacious]

You personally don't, but the government did do these things.

Good.. And they shouldn't have to say sorry for it. It wasn't the wrong thing to do.

Even if responsibility is not made out for the past, the current circumstances of inequality provides more than enough reason to help them in their current state.

Their current state? Now now! *moves index finger* no generalising!! !!! !!!

There were people with their own customs, rules, religion and society living in Australia. In what possible way did the land belong to no-one?

Some how i think dancing around a fire does not entitle them to own this land. Europeans came here and civilised this land and settled it and we aren't going anywhere. The land belonged to no one.. They were nomadic, and didn't have set social structures - large enough to be substantial enough to declare this whole island theirs.

 

[Tarni1]

Muslims should apologise for being terrorists, and should pay reparations. If the commonwealth gov. said sorry, they would be expected to cough up a lot of money and land.. Therefore muslims should be expected to cough up money and land for the victims of terrorism.

... exactly, it's never going to happen. So stop expecting white people to do things that no body else would.

...Look, someone HAS to say sorry, so the Commonwealth gov has that responsibility. Who says that aus would have to give/money and land? Has it ever gone through your head all the Aborigines want is closure to the subject?
In No way are these two situations like eachother AT ALL. Anyone can be a terrorist, not just Muslims. And why the hell would muslims have to give LAND? The fact is, the settlers took the land off the Aborigines - which land excatly did Muslims steal....?

 

[Tarni1]

Well then enlighten me on why it is that they want us to say sorry so badly?

Exactly. Justify your (absurd) statement Lozacious

 

[Jiga]

N e way, back on topic....

Why do we need to check their identity? Shouldn't the fact that they risked their life comming over on a rickety boat be enough of a clue that they probably deserve refugee status?

Your kidden, this is one of the weirdest comments I have ever heard. So we should just forget about their identities, essentially they can make their own identities up, hide their past - which may include criminal activity. All of this just to make them feel happy. A) Let them bullshyte their own identities B) Put them in reasonanle conditions until you attain their identity. Luckily we have sane people in positions of power.

they protect workers in australia from having to compete with workers who might come in from less developed countries and work harder for less

Immigration does to protect domestic workers at all. If an individual is desirable, such as the one that you describe, then they would be allowed in through the appropriate avenues. You can see this everywhere for yourself, Indian doctors, lecturers etc who were born in India, or Pommy teachers who were born in Pommy land......immigration is hardly a barrier to globalisation, or at least it isnt among desirable countries like Australia where people are queing up to get in.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Your claims here are, again, utterly illogical on a number of levels. Firstly, you make the mistake of believing a human being can be owned. Unless you believe in slavery, humans cannot be owned.

You can't talk, you abuse rights all the time.

Fallacy: tu quoque.

Secondly, you ignore the historical fact that children were taken from their parents. What race they are is entirely irrelevant.

Apparently not. For two reasons. They were half caste children, but apparently we are supposed to say sorry to the Aboriginals as a whole..

Because we took their children.

The second reason being that more white children have been taken from their parents by the government for their own good, which is what the aboriginals were taken for, than aboriginals. Are we going to say sorry to the whole Australian population.

It depends on what the result was towards those white children. If they were taken for their own good and it was for their own good, then we do not need to apologise because no harm has been caused. With regard to Aboriginal children, it was in hindsight not for their own good.

(Might I add that you group people into extremely generalised categories like this all the time. This is the most fundamental failure of your way of thinking. It completely obfuscates any real discussion of an issue. I am referring here to calling everyone who disagrees with you "left".)

They generally are left..

The whole world is left according you. You constantly attack people merely for being left -- you fail time and time again to actually address their arguments.

Lastly, even if we go along with your ridiculous argument, your claim that "they were as much white as they were black" does not entitle one of those "joint owners" to take from the other. If you own a bike in joint ownership with a younger brother, you don't have the right to take the bike from him.

This isn't a question of join ownership.

You said it was. You claimed "they were as much white as they were black".

No, the government was there. It's constituents may have changed, but the government was there.

lol. Muslims are still there also. (unfortu...)

This completely ignores the point I made that refutes your analogy. In fact I noticed you omitted it. I wonder why. Well here it is again, in response:

No, the government is the same Federal body - and the same legal entity. "Muslims" are not a government. "Muslims" are not the same legal entity. "Muslims" are constituted by millions of individuals worldwide. Your analogy is completely flawed.

And don't try to say that this isn't a racial issue, or that i can't generalise, because if this is the case, then your whole arguement is flawed also. Why should we say sorry to ALL aboriginals.. We didn't steal every single one of their children.

We did more than steal their children. This isn't about just saying sorry either -- it is about providing justice to a group that are in the state of depravity they are currently in because of the government's actions. Please do me a favour and read a history book.

 

[erawamai]

If the government admits that it's at fault (even if it isn't) then this will have repercussions - of course it will have repercussions, which is the only reason they want to hear a government say sorry.

Ie...so you have no basis for your suggestions other than a hunch. Anyone with a basic knowledge of native title law would realise that what you assert will happen is impossible. No one is going to force you to give back your suburban haven to ATSI people.

I now ask you, what other reason would there be for them persisting in wanting whites to say sorry?

AGAIN the ATSI population isnt very concerned about 'sorry'. It's more middle class whites with a conscience who believe it is a right thing. You fuck up a generation of people, attempt to wipe them out by soothing the dying pillow some people feel that there should be a government apology.

You say sorry when you fuck up dont you mathmite? OR didn't anyone teach you manners?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

You personally don't, but the government did do these things.

Good.. And they shouldn't have to say sorry for it. It wasn't the wrong thing to do.

Oh good. Taking children from people isn't a bad thing, fancy that. I think when you have your first child I might come around and steal him -- how would you like that? According to you, it is perfectly acceptable.

Even if responsibility is not made out for the past, the current circumstances of inequality provides more than enough reason to help them in their current state.

Their current state? Now now! *moves index finger* no generalising!! !!! !!!

You failed to address my point.

There were people with their own customs, rules, religion and society living in Australia. In what possible way did the land belong to no-one?

Some how i think dancing around a fire does not entitle them to own this land.

This is the problem with all your arguments: you completely exaggerate and misrepresent everything said by the other side. Look at what I said. I'm sure you can read, so it may just take some concentration for you: "There were people with their own customs, rules, religion and society."

Again, in what way did they not own the land?

Europeans came here and civilised this land

Just one problem with that: there was an existing civilisation already here.

and settled it and we aren't going anywhere.

Your point?

The land belonged to no one.. They were nomadic,

They made use of the land - they had roving societies and they returned to places over and over again. Just because they were nomadic does not mean that they had no ownership. Again you look at this from a completely Eurocentric perspective of the world.

and didn't have set social structures - large enough to be substantial enough to declare this whole island theirs.

Actually they did. It is now known they did have complex social arrangements.

 

[erawamai]

If the government admits that it's at fault (even if it isn't) then this will have repercussions - of course it will have repercussions, which is the only reason they want to hear a government say sorry.

Ie...so you have no basis for your suggestions other than a hunch. Anyone with a basic knowledge of native title law would realise that what you assert will happen is impossible. No one is going to force you to give back your suburban haven to ATSI people.

I now ask you, what other reason would there be for them persisting in wanting whites to say sorry?

AGAIN the ATSI population isnt very concerned about 'sorry'. It's more middle class whites with a conscience who believe it is a right thing. You fuck up a generation of people, attempt to wipe them out by soothing the dying pillow some people feel that there should be a government apology.

You say sorry when you fuck up dont you mathmite? OR didn't anyone teach you manners?
-------------------------------

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS

 

[Jiga]

Yes.. That's all they want.. Closure There are hidden legal consequences which is the sole reason they want to be apologised too. No other reason. Do you think they give a f**k what whites think. They only want the $$$$$$$'s.

Thats the main reason why I believe they want the big 'sorry', because that will open numerous legal avenues.

But they are... You are asking people who are unrelated to a situation to say sorry. And in one of the cases, there isn't anything to be sorry about!

Thats waht Ive always thought, the extent of our 'apology' can be saying "What they did back then was wrong", which has occured, but there is no reason why the current generation has to say sorry for the mis-givings of a previous era.....especially when back then peoples attitudes and ideals were different. Its like getting a relative of some person who made someone sacrafice their life in name of some religion to say sorry to the decendants of that person....different times, different values, and different people.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Because we took their children.

Well then we should say sorry to the white station owners who fathered the child?

Right, and I'll only say sorry to the person I give your baby to after I steal it, shall I?

it was in hindsight not for their own good.

Why?

Yeah, good question. Why is it bad for a child to be taken away from their parents forever, introduced to a completely new set of rules and social structures where they are treated second-class citizens, and deprived of their identity and culture? Hmm, you've got me on that one!

you fail time and time again to actually address their arguments.

That's because they are so stupid, i'm too lazy to re-gurgitate the truth to them all the time, and even when i do, they don't accept it.

Yes, everyone is stupid except you. That must be it.

We did more than steal their children. This isn't about just saying sorry either -- it is about providing justice to a group that are in the state of depravity they are currently in because of the government's actions.

They have every oppurtunity to do something with themselves! They get alot of extra assistance and opportunities. Besides.. Saying sorry wont help them in this respect.. Other than in the hip pocket

The situation is improving, but they do not have the opportunities we have. Do you know what the average age of death is for indigenous people? Have you any idea of the level of education and health disparities? In this society, Aboriginal people are looked down upon. You can't deny that. The opportunities just aren't there. (I'm sure also, that had you been around when these support initiatives you say are in place were first introduced, you would have vigorously opposed them).

Please do me a favour and read a history book.

Irrelevant.

You think history is irrelevant? That explains a lot actually.

 

[erawamai]

Thats the main reason why I believe they want the big 'sorry', because that will open numerous legal avenues.

PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT THESE 'numerous' LEGAL AVENUES ARE. PLEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEE.

 

[Jiga]

Well Im not to knowledgable in this area, but one avenue includes compensation to the victims of kidnappings, seperation etc etc etc. This has also been echoed by the Prime Minister before.