Capitalism or Communism? (9 Viewers)

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I hope you realize that not everybody can afford to go to school.
And think about people in the 3rd world. Should we just ignore them? Your argument is completely void of any moral or ethical values. And that's what makes us human.

EDIT: Also think of the kids of the guys who don't earn as much. What did they do to deserve it? They have to have a poor quality of life because of their parents. How can you justify that?

Well, I never said that everybody had the same opportunities, which again, is a sad fact of life that you have to get used to. If you are in a difficult situation, there are ways around it. If you can't afford education, there are programs for financially disadvantaged students. If you live in the middle of nowhere, if you really wanted to change your life badly enough you would find a way to move. My point is that the bad luck and circumstances of some people is not a good enough reason for the people who have managed to make something of themselves to have to give it away if they don't want to.

No, we shouldn't ignore the people in the third world, did I say we should do that? The reasons for the divide between the third world and the developed world is not something I know enough about to form an argument, so I'm not even going to go there. But I will say that it is completely unfair on a lot of people to suggest that we redistribute wealth equally between everyone. I'm all for charities, don't get me wrong, but to me, the idea of "hey let's take everyone's stuff and give it to other people even though these guys have been working all their lives to get it" is really unjust.

As for the children of low income parents: Chance dealt you a blow, what do you expect the rest of us to do? It might not be totally fair, but like I said, life isn't fair. And those kids have got the opportunity when they're older to get out and make a better life for themselves and if they don't take it, that's their problem.

Lastly, don't imply that I'm somehow inhuman or immoral for thinking that that if you work for something you don't deserve to have it taken off you.

 

[ccc123]

Fuck you're even dumber than I thought.

If the government is a group of people elected by the people, and if there is no other class system or hierarchy, how can you justify the government being the be all and end all?

They tried this, it doesn't fucking work. In order for it to work, the government would have to be made up of benevolent people. These people do not exist. Communism fails.

This is pretty much my argument put very explicitly. Egalitarianism doesn't work. They tried it, it failed. You need structure in society, unless you want anarchy.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I see where you're coming from with Protestant work ethic and all, don't you think it needs to be acknowledged that now all are given equal opportunity to education, work etc? A person's socio-economic circumstances aren't the product of their own actions solely. There is no simple causal relationship between working hard and 6 figure salaries. There are external determinants that will influence your socio-economic status.

yeah, there are, but why should that be a good enough reason to go and redistribute everyone's wealth? I don't think it is.

 

[boris]

My reasons why I think communism is a crock of shit.

1. People are not equal.
2. People who work hard to make a lot of money should not expect the same level of services as somebody who doesn't work, or who is maybe less academic and works in a low paying job. Nor should they be on the same class level.
3. Hierarchy is needed. If everybody is considered equal, then why bother going to work? Everybody will expect the same services, the same houses, the same perks but for less effort
4. Get over it.

 

[bassistx]

Fuck you're even dumber than I thought.

If the government is a group of people elected by the people, and if there is no other class system or hierarchy, how can you justify the government being the be all and end all?

They tried this, it doesn't fucking work. In order for it to work, the government would have to be made up of benevolent people. These people do not exist. Communism fails.

There's the government and then the people. That's it. That's the chain of power/command. Legally, the government is at the top. But ideally, the people are at the top. They can rebel and destroy the government. Therefore, they have more power (because they would outnumber the authorities).
Whichever way you want to put it, there is still some sort of heirarchy. I don't care how big or small. I could not care less.

I doesn't work because of people like you.

Well, I never said that everybody had the same opportunities, which again, is a sad fact of life that you have to get used to. If you are in a difficult situation, there are ways around it. If you can't afford education, there are programs for financially disadvantaged students. If you live in the middle of nowhere, if you really wanted to change your life badly enough you would find a way to move. My point is that the bad luck and circumstances of some people is not a good enough reason for the people who have managed to make something of themselves to have to give it away if they don't want to.

No, we shouldn't ignore the people in the third world, did I say we should do that? The reasons for the divide between the third world and the developed world is not something I know enough about to form an argument, so I'm not even going to go there. But I will say that it is completely unfair on a lot of people to suggest that we redistribute wealth equally between everyone. I'm all for charities, don't get me wrong, but to me, the idea of "hey let's take everyone's stuff and give it to other people even though these guys have been working all their lives to get it" is really unjust.

As for the children of low income parents: Chance dealt you a blow, what do you expect the rest of us to do? It might not be totally fair, but like I said, life isn't fair. And those kids have got the opportunity when they're older to get out and make a better life for themselves and if they don't take it, that's their problem.

Lastly, don't imply that I'm somehow inhuman or immoral for thinking that that if you work for something you don't deserve to have it taken off you.

It is about fixing that "chance gave you a blow" scenario. People who rise to power and are filthy rich are frauds. They avoid tax. They steal. They cheat. They exploit workers in poor Asian countries. Do not tell me these people are deserving. We see many of them jailed each year for fraud, misleading their shareholders. These people do not have hearts of pure snow. They are so consumed by materialism that they forget about creating opportunities for the misfortunate.
You'll find that most of the people who started charities were not billionaires and really struggled.
Those people you talk about who move away, those who have to leave their families and create their own opportunities because they do not exist - how many of them actually succeed? Not all of them carry on that long journey.
Everything should be available. It should be the right of every human being.

 

[fantabulous]

My reasons why I think communism is a crock of shit.

1. People are not equal.
2. People who work hard to make a lot of money should not expect the same level of services as somebody who doesn't work, or who is maybe less academic and works in a low paying job. Nor should they be on the same class level.
3. Hierarchy is needed. If everybody is considered equal, then why bother going to work? Everybody will expect the same services, the same houses, the same perks but for less effort
4. Get over it.

Its not a crock of shit. We have the reposnsibility, the moral responsibility, to create equality. Like bassistx said, its not fair that there is such a disparity in wealth and we need to uphold fundamental notions of fairness.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

There's the government and then the people. That's it. That's the chain of power/command. Legally, the government is at the top. But ideally, the people are at the top. They can rebel and destroy the government. Therefore, they have more power (because they would outnumber the authorities).
Whichever way you want to put it, there is still some sort of heirarchy. I don't care how big or small. I could not care less.

I doesn't work because of people like you.



It is about fixing that "chance gave you a blow" scenario. People who rise to power and are filthy rich are frauds. They avoid tax. They steal. They cheat. They exploit workers in poor Asian countries. Do not tell me these people are deserving. We see many of them jailed each year for fraud, misleading their shareholders. These people do not have hearts of pure snow. They are so consumed by materialism that they forget about creating opportunities for the misfortunate.
You'll find that most of the people who started charities were not billionaires and really struggled.
Those people you talk about who move away, those who have to leave their families and create their own opportunities because they do not exist - how many of them actually succeed? Not all of them carry on that long journey.
Everything should be available. It should be the right of every human being.

There are a lot of spacktards in the world that are totally morally corrupt and abuse their good luck, I agree. It's not right.

But I don't see that as a reason to implement communism. The reason communism doesn't work in practice is exactly because of the human nature you just described. We aren't wired to be content with the kind of equality that communism offers. We want to be able to rise above the pack, if you will, if we can. It's only natural. Like katie said, if everyone was totally equal there would be no incentive to work and the system would collapse anyway, because even in Utopia someone has to do the dishes. If you understand what I mean.

 

[ccc123]

It is about fixing that "chance gave you a blow" scenario. People who rise to power and are filthy rich are frauds. They avoid tax. They steal. They cheat. They exploit workers in poor Asian countries. Do not tell me these people are deserving. We see many of them jailed each year for fraud, misleading their shareholders. These people do not have hearts of pure snow. They are so consumed by materialism that they forget about creating opportunities for the misfortunate.
You'll find that most of the people who started charities were not billionaires and really struggled.
Those people you talk about who move away, those who have to leave their families and create their own opportunities because they do not exist - how many of them actually succeed? Not all of them carry on that long journey.
Everything should be available. It should be the right of every human being.

Thanks for that very neo-existentialist/ Fight Club inspired rant about our "spiritual war." The fact is though, you're making sweeping generalisations. There are a lot of successful people who are successful in their own right, and still have a social conscience. E.g Bill Gates.

 

[bassistx]

There are a lot of spacktards in the world that are totally morally corrupt and abuse their good luck, I agree. It's not right.

But I don't see that as a reason to implement communism. The reason communism doesn't work in practice is exactly because of the human nature you just described. We aren't wired to be content with the kind of equality that communism offers. We want to be able to rise above the pack, if you will, if we can. It's only natural. Like katie said, if everyone was totally equal there would be no incentive to work and the system would collapse anyway, because even in Utopia someone has to do the dishes. If you understand what I mean.

Have you watched Kid Nation, by any chance?
People work together. It's happy. Everybody's equal. If they want power, they join the government or whatever.
You still have bosses, mayors, etc - power is still there. But the people are in control. Whatever the people want, they get.
This is about putting the needs of the people before the needs of the single greedy individual.

 

[boris]

There's the government and then the people. That's it. That's the chain of power/command. Legally, the government is at the top. But ideally, the people are at the top. They can rebel and destroy the government. Therefore, they have more power (because they would outnumber the authorities).
Whichever way you want to put it, there is still some sort of heirarchy. I don't care how big or small. I could not care less.

I doesn't work because of people like you.

And as I said! For that to work, there would have to be a government made up of benevolent people. People who cannot be persuaded by wealth or corruption. It DOESN'T WORK! It NEVER HAS! Name one communist state that has succeeded at making the government absolute, and the people 'equal'.
Communism doesn't work because people like me are smart enough to realise it's a freakin dumb idea and will never be successfully implemented.

You cannot give absolute power to the government.

It is about fixing that "chance gave you a blow" scenario. People who rise to power and are filthy rich are frauds. They avoid tax. They steal. They cheat. They exploit workers in poor Asian countries. Do not tell me these people are deserving. We see many of them jailed each year for fraud, misleading their shareholders. These people do not have hearts of pure snow. They are so consumed by materialism that they forget about creating opportunities for the misfortunate.
You'll find that most of the people who started charities were not billionaires and really struggled.
Those people you talk about who move away, those who have to leave their families and create their own opportunities because they do not exist - how many of them actually succeed? Not all of them carry on that long journey.
Everything should be available. It should be the right of every human being.

I can think of several big cases lately where rich people have tried to be fradulent with their taxes and have failed. And why is it that you seem to think only rich people are fraudulent?

It's not the right of every human being. Human beings are not equal.

Scenario;
Give every single person the same opportunities (in terms of education). There will be smart people. There will be dumb people. There will be people who excell, there will be people who fail.

Why should the people who excel and the people who fail be considered equal or put on equal footinng?

 

[bassistx]

Thanks for that very neo-existentialist/ Fight Club inspired rant about our "spiritual war." The fact is though, you're making sweeping generalisations. There are a lot of successful people who are successful in their own right, and still have a social conscience. E.g Bill Gates.

....
I have never watched Fight Club.
I said "most of them". I did not say "all of them".
Bill Gates earns billions. What does he do with it? Seriously, I want to know how many holidays and beach houses and cars you could possibly have before you say "enough".

 

[boris]

Its not a crock of shit. We have the reposnsibility, the moral responsibility, to create equality. Like bassistx said, its not fair that there is such a disparity in wealth and we need to uphold fundamental notions of fairness.

No. We don't.

Have you watched Kid Nation, by any chance?
People work together. It's happy. Everybody's equal. If they want power, they join the government or whatever.
You still have bosses, mayors, etc - power is still there. But the people are in control. Whatever the people want, they get.
This is about putting the needs of the people before the needs of the single greedy individual.

Fuck me. You're basing an argument on some bullshit channel ten program about a bunch of 12 year olds.

NOT EVERYBODY IS EQUAL. Why should I work my arse off to graduate uni and get a job when the sloth down the road is going to get the same perks as me for less effort?

Fuck off.

 

[boris]

....
I have never watched Fight Club.
I said "most of them". I did not say "all of them".
Bill Gates earns billions. What does he do with it? Seriously, I want to know how many holidays and beach houses and cars you could possibly have before you say "enough".

Bill Gates. Self made billionaire.
College drop out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Melinda_Gates_Foundation

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Have you watched Kid Nation, by any chance?
People work together. It's happy. Everybody's equal. If they want power, they join the government or whatever.
You still have bosses, mayors, etc - power is still there. But the people are in control. Whatever the people want, they get.
This is about putting the needs of the people before the needs of the single greedy individual.

Yeah, i've watched it. I don't see it working on a larger scale, though. And all the people on Kid Nation are kids. Meaning, they're all already equal in one sense. In real life people are different, want different things, have different circumstances, and the whole thing would die before it started with everyone scrapping over the details.

that's the thing about communism, it works great on a tiny model scale, or in theory, etc, but in real life it goes to shit.

 

[bassistx]

And as I said! For that to work, there would have to be a government made up of benevolent people. People who cannot be persuaded by wealth or corruption. It DOESN'T WORK! It NEVER HAS! Name one communist state that has succeeded at making the government absolute, and the people 'equal'.
Communism doesn't work because people like me are smart enough to realise it's a freakin dumb idea and will never be successfully implemented.

You cannot give absolute power to the government.

I stated that the power is "reversable". This system is based on the people. Earlier, I did say that the reason why communism did not work previously is because it turned into a dictatorship. I'm not as dumb as you think.
But as an ideology, it's utopia. Self-less people are the ones who don't rise to power because they are self-less. Does that make sense?
If they did, that is when communism would work.

I can think of several big cases lately where rich people have tried to be fradulent with their taxes and have failed. And why is it that you seem to think only rich people are fraudulent?

I did not say that only rich people are frauds. But name me one who is completely clean. To make money, you hold onto it with everything you've got. You cheat. You send it to banks overseas. You use workers in other countries, because they're cheaper, you relocate your office overseas and register in Thailand so that you don't have to pay as much tax. When you call a company, how many of the times do you get somewhere in Malaysia or India or elsewhere? It's simply cheaper.
There is nothing wrong with earning money. I have nothing against that. I dislike making money though.

It's not the right of every human being. Human beings are not equal.

Every human has the right of education. How do you know people are smart or dumb if they have never been to school in order to excel?

Why should the people who excel and the people who fail be considered equal or put on equal footinng?

Incomes will be capped. It will not all be the same.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

that's the thing about communism, it works great on a tiny model scale, or in theory, etc, but in real life it goes to shit.

^kinda like capatilism! ^_^

and this crap about rich people working harder for their money is a big fat giant fallacy.

 

[bassistx]

Fuck me. You're basing an argument on some bullshit channel ten program about a bunch of 12 year olds.

NOT EVERYBODY IS EQUAL. Why should I work my arse off to graduate uni and get a job when the sloth down the road is going to get the same perks as me for less effort?

Fuck off.

I am not basing my argument on that show. I just wanted to bring it "closer to home". And it was not intended for you either.
Drop out of uni and follow in the footsteps of your idol, Bill Gates.

that's the thing about communism, it works great on a tiny model scale, or in theory, etc, but in real life it goes to shit.

You're right. And it's a shame. It is an ideal. And I'm all for it.

 

[boris]

I stated that the power is "reversable". This system is based on the people. Earlier, I did say that the reason why communism did not work previously is because it turned into a dictatorship. I'm not as dumb as you think.
But as an ideology, it's utopia. Self-less people are the ones who don't rise to power because they are self-less. Does that make sense?
If they did, that is when communism would work.

It makes sense. It's also why communism will always fail.

I did not say that only rich people are frauds. But name me one who is completely clean. To make money, you hold onto it with everything you've got. You cheat. You send it to banks overseas. You use workers in other countries, because they're cheaper, you relocate your office overseas and register in Thailand so that you don't have to pay as much tax. When you call a company, how many of the times do you get somewhere in Malaysia or India or elsewhere? It's simply cheaper.
There is nothing wrong with earning money. I have nothing against that. I dislike making money though.

Nobody is clean.
Mr. Billionaire is not clean. Mr Middle Man is not clean. Mr Povo Bogan is not clean.
What companies are you talking about? So far your only example has been sweat shops. Sweat shops are not run by one wealthy individual.

When you call a company, how many of the times do you get somewhere in Malaysia or India or elsewhere? It's simply cheaper.

Of course it's fucking cheaper! THAT IS THE POINT. Excuse me for pointing this out, but these Malaysians working in call centres. They're getting paid are they not? So what if their minimum wage is $10 less an hour than in Australia. Not my problem. Even if Australia became a communist state (god help me) that isn't going to solve world poverty.

Incomes will be capped. It will not all be the same.

Yeah? That's still bullshit.

 

[ccc123]

Have you watched Kid Nation, by any chance?
People work together. It's happy. Everybody's equal. If they want power, they join the government or whatever.
You still have bosses, mayors, etc - power is still there. But the people are in control. Whatever the people want, they get.
This is about putting the needs of the people before the needs of the single greedy individual.

Oh Jeez. So your basing your utopian/idealistic argument on some shitty channel 10 reality TV show on 10 yr olds deciding between pizza and microwaves?

 

[boris]

I am not basing my argument on that show. I just wanted to bring it "closer to home". And it was not intended for you either.
Drop out of uni and follow in the footsteps of your idol, Bill Gates.

You are the biggest fucking idiot to talk shit on these forums in a long time. Congratulations.