Carbon Tax (2 Viewers)

[cosmo kramer]

museum of scientific racism

opening soon in dubbo, n.s.w

 

[SylviaB]

There is considerable compensation and protection for lower income earners in this mechanism. Those who will be hit hardest by it, generally speaking, are those who have more than enough to cop the hit. What is so complicated about that?

Herp a derp obviously executives aren't paying out of their own pockets, its coming out of their businesses

which means less money for wages and capital investment and other things that make australia better off

 

[Lentern]

Herp a derp obviously executives aren't paying out of their own pockets, its coming out of their businesses

which means less money for wages and capital investment and other things that make australia better off

Things that make them significantly better off and that make negligible differences to 99% of people for whom it could be said genuinely need some sort of difference made.

 

[Garygaz]

There is considerable compensation and protection for lower income earners in this mechanism. Those who will be hit hardest by it, generally speaking, are those who have more than enough to cop the hit. What is so complicated about that?

socialist alert

 

[SylviaB]

Things that make them significantly better off and that make negligible differences to 99% of people for whom it could be said genuinely need some sort of difference made.

yeah okay you're a complete economic illiterate

 

[Lentern]

yeah okay you're a complete economic illiterate

No mate you and you're ultra free market nonsense is the scientology of economics, you and your mates sit around feeling so smug and clever because you've got this wonderfully complicated narrative drawn out to explain things and think because nobody can be bothered trawling through the thickets of naivety that they are some pitiful being who could only dream of having your great understanding of the mighty forces of the market, yet unbeknown to you the whole time they speak they are making awkward eyes at each other before bursting out into giggles the minute you leave. Comeback and talk economics when you have an even basic appreciation of Keynesian principles you fucking cultist.

 

[chewy123]

Yet Australia is almost solely relying on it's resources sector to push the economy at the moment. Oh sure, Gillard can mention that this scheme 'works' in Europe but really what does that prove? Europe is strong in agriculture, technology and other industries that don't rely as heavily on the emission of carbon.

Firstly, as an ideological issue, the fact that Australia is dependent on a polluting industry for economic growth is an unconvincing argument against carbon tax.
Think of this scenario - there are 3 people living in a community, person A, B and C. Person A and B makes a living by fishing and farming respectively, person C makes a living by stealing from A and B. This community decides that the social cost of stealing is too much to bear, and they decides to outlaw stealing. Person C then says "but I rely solely on stealing from others to survive, if you outlaw stealing, my standard of living will be drastically affected"....you see how absurd this would become right?
Likewise, polluting excessively involve imposing a social cost onto the world without their consent. Just because an economy is dependent on polluting does not make it acceptable. Just as you cannot say "I make a living by stealing, so my livelihood is destroyed if you make stealing illegal". So at least ideologically, I disagree with you.

Secondly, when economists voice their support on the carbon tax, I assume they've made their calculus on this issue - that is, the long-term economic benefits will ultimately exceeds its cost. So what can I (a person untrained in both science and economics) say?

Sure it's not sound to say because one person doesn't pay tax I won't either. This isn't the point, however, it is that if the top two tax payers don't pay tax, who make up so much of the overall revenue, so much so that if they don't pay then there is no chance of the gov. producing a budget, then why should anyone else bother paying?

Australia is in fact amongst the top carbon emitters in the world on a per capita basis, so I don't what you are trying to say regarding the top not paying their share. Nonetheless, any attempt to deflect Australia responsibility by pointing at a greater evil is just a form of ignoratio elenchi. Further, unlike the tax scenario, the status quo here isn't morally neutral. We are currently imposing a social cost onto the world and continue to do so..it's not a scenario well we are currently doing nothing wrong to the world and by introducing carbon tax we're doing something good to the world. Carbon tax involve "reversing an evil" and NOT "doing something good".

 

[SylviaB]

Comeback and talk economics when you have an even basic appreciation of Keynesian principles you fucking cultist.

lol 10/10

 

[funkshen]

Person A and B makes a living by fishing and farming respectively, person C makes a living by stealing from A and B.

A and B pool their resources and stop person C stealing from them. They are not responsible for C, who is a parasite, and his welfare, which was derived from the theft of their property. Whether they subsequently choose to compensate him for the loss of his livelihood, or incorporate C into their community as a productive unit is their own prerogative.

What a shit example. Australia has high carbon emissions per capita because the world effectively outsources its carbon emissions to Australia by sourcing their minerals and resources through us, not because we are a resources-dependent economy. Consent is a completely nonsensical non-issue. Even if "consent" were an issue, the world consents to the production of pollution, the byproduct of resource extraction, through their insatiable appetite for such resources.

edit: C sounds a lot like the government.

 

[chewy123]

A and B pool their resources and stop person C stealing from them. They are not responsible for C, who is a parasite, and his welfare, which was derived from the theft of their property. Whether they subsequently choose to compensate him for the loss of his livelihood, or incorporate C into their community as a productive unit is their own prerogative.

This an incredibly deplorable twist of morality. Instead of placing responsibility on the wrongdoer, you're saying that it is the responsibility of the victim to make sure they are not harmed, at the same time giving liberty to the bad guys to continue to do the wrong thing.

If we accept that Australia is a heavy polluter, it is no excuse for it to avoid responsibility just becauses its survival is dependent on being a heavy polluter. In the same way as a scammer cannot be free from condemnation merely because that is how he make a living.

Australia has high carbon emissions per capita because the world effectively outsources its carbon emissions to Australia by sourcing their minerals and resources through us, not because we are a resources-dependent economy. Consent is a completely nonsensical non-issue. Even if "consent" were an issue, the world consents to the production of pollution, the byproduct of resource extraction, through their insatiable appetite for such resources.

You're entering into the realm of making economic assertions, which is not something either of us can really do. MY guess is that in order for the carbon tax to work effectively the tax have to be placed on the person who actually sets the price for the relevant goods. GST for example is directly taken from the 'seller', not the 'buyer'. So yes, I don't disagree that Australia is a high per capita emitter because of this 'outsourcing' issue, but you then will have to acknowledge that carbon tax is not just paid for by Australians, but also foreigners who will buy the resources at a high price.

Ultimately, I trust that these technical economic issues has been considered and addressed by appropriate experts. So long the majority of these experts are in agreement, I dare not venture into making technical assertions myself.

 

[Blastus]

For the tax to work there should be no compensation

BOOM

 

[Rafy]

Tomorrow's Nielsen:
#Nielsen Poll 2 Party Preferred: ALP 39 (-2) L/NP 61 (+2)

Um, so wasn't the announcement meant to be the circuit breaker that would turn everything around?

 

[Lentern]

Tomorrow's Nielsen:
#Nielsen Poll 2 Party Preferred: ALP 39 (-2) L/NP 61 (+2)

Um, so wasn't the announcement meant to be the circuit breaker that would turn everything around?

Are you actually seeking a response or are you just going to disappear when someone(me) challenges you're little pepperings of right wing hackery?

 

[Blastus]

Are you actually seeking a response or are you just going to disappear when someone(me) challenges you're little pepperings of right wing hackery?

I'm in your camp, Polls prove nothing.

I also think this policy is both too little too late and so laden with pork it's an atrocity.

Whatever, expecting government of either party to do anything intelligent or beneficial is the sign of a madman.

 

[Lentern]

I'm in your camp, Polls prove nothing.

I also think this policy is both too little too late and so laden with pork it's an atrocity.

Whatever, expecting government of either party to do anything intelligent or beneficial is the sign of a madman.

I'm not inherently against polls, it was the idea that by releasing the detail of a policy so conservative think tanks could pick it to pieces and highlight it's every dint and every blemish, would somehow deliver Labor a boost. Same thing happened when Hewson released the details for Fightback!, Howard the GST and Beazley "Rollback".

 

[Chemical Ali]

Polls are the cancer killing politics

 

[Blastus]

politics is the cancer killing politics

 

[Rafy]

Draft bills are out.

http://climatechange.gov.au/government/submissions/clean-energy-legislative-package.aspx

 

[SylviaB]

spend the carbon tax money on sending condoms to africa

forrst razing due to population expansion contributes a massive percentage to global co2 emission, many, many times greater than total australian output

 

[cosmo kramer]

come on man do you really think africans are going to use condoms

even bogans dont use them despite endless amounts of sex education

send bullets instead