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Chrisitian morality? (1 Viewer)

Sophie777

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Are you calling me a dirty extremist? You're very weird.

I also think that good for you. I definitely Bush needs more right wing supporters who are swayed by his propaganda. Don't you get that your fear of terrorism and support for the cause is a result of government propaganda... it isn't real. He created this. September 11 only involved the US. Now the entire world is involved.
 

lengstar

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the people who think he is an immoral capitalist pig are the terrorists. pay attention.
 

Ziff

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David Brooks - New York Times/IHT said:
WASHINGTON Every election year, we in America's commentariat come up with a story line to explain the result, and the story line has to have two features. First, it has to be completely wrong. Second, it has to reassure liberals that they are morally superior to the people who just defeated them.

In past years, the story line has involved Angry White Males, or Willie Horton-bashing racists. This year, the official story is that throngs of homophobic values-voters in Red America - as the solidly Republican states are known - surged to the polls to put George W. Bush over the top.

This theory certainly flatters liberals, and it is certainly wrong.

Here are the facts. As Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center points out, there was no disproportionate surge in the evangelical vote this year. Evangelicals made up the same share of the electorate this year as they did in 2000. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who are pro-life. Sixteen percent of voters said abortions should be illegal in all circumstances. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who say they pray daily.

Bush did get a few more evangelicals to vote Republican, but Kohut, whose final poll nailed the election result dead-on, reminds us that public opinion on gay issues overall has been moving leftward over the years. Majorities oppose gay marriage, but in the exit polls Tuesday, 25 percent of the voters supported gay marriage and 35 percent of voters supported civil unions. There is a big middle on gay rights issues, as there is on most social issues.

Much of the misinterpretation of this election derives from a poorly worded question in the exit polls. When asked about the issue that most influenced their vote, voters were given the option of saying "moral values." But that phrase can mean anything - or nothing. Who doesn't vote on moral values? If you ask an inept question, you get a misleading result.

The reality is that this was a broad victory for the president. Bush did better this year than he did in 2000 in 45 out of the 50 states. He did better in New York, Connecticut and, amazingly, Massachusetts. That's hardly the Bible Belt.

Bush, on the other hand, did not gain significantly in the 11 states with gay marriage referendums. He won because 53 percent of voters approved of his performance as president. Fifty-eight percent of them trust Bush to fight terrorism. They had roughly equal confidence in Bush and John Kerry to handle the economy. Most approved of the decision to go to war in Iraq. Most see it as part of the war on terror.

The fact is that those who think America is safer now generally voted for Bush, and those who think America is less safe generally voted for Kerry. That's policy, not fundamentalism. The upsurge in voters was an upsurge of people with conservative policy views, whether they are religious or not.

The red and blue maps that have been popping up in the papers again this week are certainly striking, but they conceal as much as they reveal. I've spent the past four years traveling to 36 states and writing millions of words trying to understand this values divide, and I can tell you there is no one explanation. It's ridiculous to say, as some liberals did last week, that we are perpetually refighting the Scopes trial, with the metro forces of enlightenment and reason arrayed against the retro forces of dogma and reaction.

In the first place, there is an immense diversity of opinion within regions, towns and families. Second, the values divide is a complex layering of conflicting views about faith, leadership, individualism, American exceptionalism, suburbia, economic opportunity, bourgeois virtues and a zillion other issues.

But the same insularity that caused many liberals to lose touch with the rest of the country now causes them to simplify, misunderstand and condescend to the people who voted for Bush. To understand why Democrats keep losing elections, listen to some coastal and university town liberals talk about how conformist and intolerant people in Red America are. It makes you wonder: Why is it that people who are completely closed-minded talk endlessly about how open-minded they are?

What we are seeing is a diverse but stable Republican coalition gradually eclipsing a diverse and stable Democratic coalition. Social issues are important, but they don't come close to telling the whole story. Some of the liberal reaction reminds me of a phrase I came across recently: The rage of the drowning man.
I feel like Alan Ramsey, filling my article entirely with a quote by someone else :p
 

Sophie777

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Right. How would I know who he was talking about? It could have been leftists.
Anyway, sorry for misinterpreting!
 

neo o

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frenchie said:
Please tell me what issue in particular I lack understanding about? The policies taken by the United States have ramifications for people in every part of the world , and last time I checked we lived in the same world. If our wonderful :mad: PM can praise George's win, then godammit I can say its a crock of shit.
Kerry favoured protectionist policies and reviewing all FTA's. A rather insular stance on economic and foreign policy - and bad for Australia as well as a number of other countries, especially those that export a large amount of agricultural products.

Sophie777 said:
Are you calling me a dirty extremist? You're very weird.

I also think that good for you. I definitely Bush needs more right wing supporters who are swayed by his propaganda. Don't you get that your fear of terrorism and support for the cause is a result of government propaganda... it isn't real. He created this. September 11 only involved the US. Now the entire world is involved.
Actually, Sep. 11th was an attack on all Western nations as well as being a direct attack on our ally, the US.

NB : Australians were killed.

You won't be saying this when we get bombed by Osama and his little gang for our 'involvement' because of Howard jumping in bed with Bush. Of course we have a right to bitch, the welfare of our nation and the entire world lies in the hands of a moron.
1) Bush's only published exam results placed him in the top 2% of the population. Also, a C at Yale, an Ivy League school is actually pretty good.

2) As said above, the attack was upon all Western nations, Australia was at risk with or without our involvement. BTW: Are you just willing to bend over to the demands of terrorists? Are you a terror sympathiser?

lengstar said:
the people who think he is an immoral capitalist pig are the terrorists. pay attention.
I fail to see how youre contributing.
 
Last edited:

neo o

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David Brooks - New York Times/IHT
WASHINGTON Every election year, we in America's commentariat come up with a story line to explain the result, and the story line has to have two features. First, it has to be completely wrong. Second, it has to reassure liberals that they are morally superior to the people who just defeated them.

In past years, the story line has involved Angry White Males, or Willie Horton-bashing racists. This year, the official story is that throngs of homophobic values-voters in Red America - as the solidly Republican states are known - surged to the polls to put George W. Bush over the top.

This theory certainly flatters liberals, and it is certainly wrong.

Here are the facts. As Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center points out, there was no disproportionate surge in the evangelical vote this year. Evangelicals made up the same share of the electorate this year as they did in 2000. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who are pro-life. Sixteen percent of voters said abortions should be illegal in all circumstances. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who say they pray daily.

Bush did get a few more evangelicals to vote Republican, but Kohut, whose final poll nailed the election result dead-on, reminds us that public opinion on gay issues overall has been moving leftward over the years. Majorities oppose gay marriage, but in the exit polls Tuesday, 25 percent of the voters supported gay marriage and 35 percent of voters supported civil unions. There is a big middle on gay rights issues, as there is on most social issues.

Much of the misinterpretation of this election derives from a poorly worded question in the exit polls. When asked about the issue that most influenced their vote, voters were given the option of saying "moral values." But that phrase can mean anything - or nothing. Who doesn't vote on moral values? If you ask an inept question, you get a misleading result.

The reality is that this was a broad victory for the president. Bush did better this year than he did in 2000 in 45 out of the 50 states. He did better in New York, Connecticut and, amazingly, Massachusetts. That's hardly the Bible Belt.

Bush, on the other hand, did not gain significantly in the 11 states with gay marriage referendums. He won because 53 percent of voters approved of his performance as president. Fifty-eight percent of them trust Bush to fight terrorism. They had roughly equal confidence in Bush and John Kerry to handle the economy. Most approved of the decision to go to war in Iraq. Most see it as part of the war on terror.

The fact is that those who think America is safer now generally voted for Bush, and those who think America is less safe generally voted for Kerry. That's policy, not fundamentalism. The upsurge in voters was an upsurge of people with conservative policy views, whether they are religious or not.

The red and blue maps that have been popping up in the papers again this week are certainly striking, but they conceal as much as they reveal. I've spent the past four years traveling to 36 states and writing millions of words trying to understand this values divide, and I can tell you there is no one explanation. It's ridiculous to say, as some liberals did last week, that we are perpetually refighting the Scopes trial, with the metro forces of enlightenment and reason arrayed against the retro forces of dogma and reaction.

In the first place, there is an immense diversity of opinion within regions, towns and families. Second, the values divide is a complex layering of conflicting views about faith, leadership, individualism, American exceptionalism, suburbia, economic opportunity, bourgeois virtues and a zillion other issues.

But the same insularity that caused many liberals to lose touch with the rest of the country now causes them to simplify, misunderstand and condescend to the people who voted for Bush. To understand why Democrats keep losing elections, listen to some coastal and university town liberals talk about how conformist and intolerant people in Red America are. It makes you wonder: Why is it that people who are completely closed-minded talk endlessly about how open-minded they are?

What we are seeing is a diverse but stable Republican coalition gradually eclipsing a diverse and stable Democratic coalition. Social issues are important, but they don't come close to telling the whole story. Some of the liberal reaction reminds me of a phrase I came across recently: The rage of the drowning man.
Ziff said:
I feel like Alan Ramsey, filling my article entirely with a quote by someone else :p
That needed to be said again. I find it rather funny that they bring up the Scopes trial as well. (A teacher put on trial in the '20s in Tennessee for teaching evolution in a high school science class).
 

Xayma

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Sophie777 said:
Right. How would I know who he was talking about? It could have been leftists.
Anyway, sorry for misinterpreting!
No problem, but I don't think your are targeting Australia ;)

Bali Bombing, the attack on the Australian embassy, were both attacks on Australian interests. September 11 was an attack on the Western world the biggest target being America. It housed many international business inside it.
 

neo o

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Ziff said:
Yeah I just read up about the Scopes trial. The thing is, it's still going on, Kansas in 1999 was trying to bring Creationism and Intelligent Design back into the science syllabus, now Wisconsin - http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/11/06/evolution.schools.ap/index.html.
I agree, it really flies in the face of what we see as an unrefutable truth but remember, evolution is still just a theory, and Darwin's theory in itself has changed quite a bit since after Darwin proposed it.

Also, I think that creationism was still taught in QLD up until the '90s.
 

Iron

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Creationism was strongly advocated by our science teacher! All bloody year he would just go ooon an ooon and...*checks self*... I think it's sad that churches pour money into this trivial matter instead of focusing on helping the needy etc.
 

Ziff

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neo_o said:
I agree, it really flies in the face of what we see as an unrefutable truth but remember, evolution is still just a theory, and Darwin's theory in itself has changed quite a bit since after Darwin proposed it.

Also, I think that creationism was still taught in QLD up until the '90s.
Yes, of course it's a theory. Everything in science is a theory. You forget the two biggest differences between religion and science:
Science bases itself on being fallible. The entire point of science is to discover more, learn more and disprove any existing theories or update them. The core of Darwin's theory is still holding up to scrutiny, though, as more knowledge has become available of course it's going to change. Scientists can and often do admit to being wrong. Science changes with the more knowledge it gains, this is in a stark contrast to religion.
Religion on the other hand offers itself as being an irrefutable truth though there is less evidence to prove it than for scientific theories. It's hard to change because it is dogmatic, rigid and based in "holy texts" (though it's always interesting to see how this is reinterpreted after much progress in non-religious fields).

Hmm religion and politicians are almost alike! Neither of them will ever admit that they were wrong :p
 

paper cup

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+Po1ntDeXt3r+ said:
well considering asia is the largest single land mass rather than a country.. yes yes it is..

but thank god they arent united under a single person.. thats far worse.. in Asia.. at least there are several ppl that all hate each other..

altho im interested to kno.. in wat way? i think politically.. it isnt, economicalli it is.. but its a fairly mutual thing..
*rolls eyes* But Asia consists largely of undeveloped nations...and America is by far the strongest nation economically and militarily...
well both...as well as socially, culturally etc. Because we are in geographical proximity to those nations...also because we trade a lot with Asia, provide aid to many of the less fortunate countries, and get a lot of migrants.
China is the biggie to watch out for - her economy has surged dramatically in the last few years...second only to the US...huge population....immense opportunities for investment. The other day I think an Aus natural gas company signed an agreement to provide energy to Chinese cities...
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

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Xayma said:
True but the USA probably cares about the same much as we do of NZ. I just see it pointless arguing when it is really going to achieve nothing, but piss off a few Americans if they visit.

Declare war on NZ lol we are responsible for CAP's etc in the event of war.

Now all those who bitch about the UN not justifying the war in Iraq. The UN has asked for more Australian troops inside Iraq. The Australian Government has refused. Discuss with refrence to the quote "The war in Iraq is illegal and without UN backing therefore we should remove our troops".
lolz i am not here to make sure i dun piss off Americans..
*omg the americans are pissed run to the hills!?*
i srsly dun give a rats ass.. i want to kno wat is best for us..

yer now that we are in... we started it!?!
its called being responsible for ure actions.. if u decide to attack a nation.. u better hope that u put a decent goverment in place.. I supported the War on Iraq..
but im saying dun dress shit up as anything else..
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

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btw on the topic of aus natural gas.. some of it is coming from off the coast of E. Timor.. Aust if they were liable would hav to repay E. Timor.. i think its about $300mil
but i cant remember.. how come we are being such a$$ holes?
 

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