• Best of luck to the class of 2024 for their HSC exams. You got this!
    Let us know your thoughts on the HSC exams here
  • YOU can help the next generation of students in the community!
    Share your trial papers and notes on our Notes & Resources page
MedVision ad

Comment in The Age Newspaper about Education (1 Viewer)

RogueAcademic

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
859
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
I was reading The Age earlier today (Thurs, 17 January '08) and saw a short comment in the letters section which made me do a double-take. I am unsure who the comment is directed at, nor do I know if it was a response to an earlier letter or article in the paper. Here it is in its entirety:


"How is a potential teacher with an ENTER score of 56 going to have the capacity to teach students who may be capable of an ENTER score of 99?
Pauline Ashton, Maribyrnong."


Thoughts?





*edited to include Brendan Nelson's quote in his budget reply:


Thanks for reminding me of this thread. I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention, Opposition Leader Dr Brendaon Nelson's budget reply regarding the low entry scores for entry into education courses:

"The single most important influence in the life of a child – apart from a parent – is their teacher.

But no teacher can teach what he or she does not know.


The standard of teacher training in Australia must be improved. Higher standards in universities, means higher standards in classrooms. In this, we are failing. The Coalition commits to education reform so essential to our economic and social development. The Coalition will require a number of conditions for funding of Australian Universities that train teachers.

Entry scores to undertake teaching courses at university are embarrassingly low.

The minimum university entrance score must be higher for entry to an education degree."

Quote taken from Mr 7%'s official Budget Reply page at the Liberal Party website:

http://www.liberal.org.au/info/news/detail/20080515_BrendanNelsonsBudgetReply.php

Seems to me he's on the same page as Pauline Ashton.
 
Last edited:

jb_nc

Google "9-11" and "truth"
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Messages
5,391
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Pauline Ashton probably thinks one's ENTER score should be stamped on your head for life.

Smart kids will motivate themselves, teaching is about value-adding; turning mediocre kids into people who want to do well and want to learn. And if you get a 56 but have the motivation to be a teacher (not many do nowdays) then why the hell not?

So this person should shut up and think twice before sending off such stupid criticism.
 

Captain Gh3y

Rhinorhondothackasaurus
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
4,153
Location
falling from grace with god
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
I know what she means, because at my uni the UAI cutoff for teaching is in the 60s

and I've met people in tutes that are only at uni to drink/party, and can barely write a sentence and seem resentful about having to do assignments

but i don't think it follows that they can't be good teachers if they try to be
they might even understand the middle-range kids better than someone who was self-motivated and never had a problem getting high 90 scores throughout school :D
 

RogueAcademic

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
859
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Captain Gh3y said:
they might even understand the middle-range kids better than someone who was self-motivated and never had a problem getting high 90 scores throughout school :D
That is a very good point actually.

But does a low ENTER score for a teaching degree reflect a general lack of interest in a teaching career?
 

Azamakumar

bannèd
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Messages
2,748
Location
the gun show
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
RogueAcademic said:
That is a very good point actually.

But does a low ENTER score for a teaching degree reflect a general lack of interest in a teaching career?
No shit, they're not gonna have a 100uai hurdle for a course 10 people want to do.
 

RogueAcademic

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
859
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Azamakumar said:
No shit, they're not gonna have a 100uai hurdle for a course 10 people want to do.
I was asking because what if Pauline Ashton is saying that a low ENTER score implies a cohort of applicants who generally lack the ability or motivation to achieve that higher score (see Captain Gh3y's comment below). And by raising the ENTER, it would weed out the ones who are choosing teaching just because their ENTER prevents them from other options.

Captain Gh3y said:
and I've met people in tutes that are only at uni to drink/party, and can barely write a sentence and seem resentful about having to do assignments
 
Last edited:

cem

Premium Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
2,438
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
From my personal experience as a teacher the really bright teachers (those who had UAI's in the high 90s and I have taught with some who did) often don't make good teachers of less able kids (particularly the below average ones) as they have never had to struggle to learn in their lives and can't understand why some kids aren't motivated to do their work and don't understand the stuff the first time.

A teacher needs to be able to motivate and some of the best teachers I have ever come across are those who had UAI's in the 50s as they can motivate through personal experience of struggling at times to learn.

These are generalisations remember but based on experience of teaching over nearly 30 years. (I am using UAI knowing that the term has changed over the years - it didn't even exist in any form when I did the HSC. We got our raw total mark!!)
 

UchihaVegeta

New Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
22
Location
Melbourne
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
teachers have a lifetime of experience in the levels/subjects they teach in, whilst students only arrive there after 12 years of study through varying levels.
 

RogueAcademic

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
859
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
cem said:
From my personal experience as a teacher the really bright teachers (those who had UAI's in the high 90s and I have taught with some who did) often don't make good teachers of less able kids (particularly the below average ones) as they have never had to struggle to learn in their lives and can't understand why some kids aren't motivated to do their work and don't understand the stuff the first time.

A teacher needs to be able to motivate and some of the best teachers I have ever come across are those who had UAI's in the 50s as they can motivate through personal experience of struggling at times to learn.

These are generalisations remember but based on experience of teaching over nearly 30 years. (I am using UAI knowing that the term has changed over the years - it didn't even exist in any form when I did the HSC. We got our raw total mark!!)
How about the other side - relating and connecting with those students who are high achievers? Or do these students not require as much attention?
 

RogueAcademic

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
859
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
"Teachers with the highest qualifications are not automatically the "best" teachers in the classroom."

Saw this article on the BBC news website:


What makes a good teacher?

By Mike Baker

Sometimes the simplest questions in life are the hardest to answer.

For all of the millions of pounds invested in researching school effectiveness, and the thousands of hours spent by policy-makers reforming education systems, do we yet have a unanimous answer to this most important of questions: "what makes a good teacher?"

The short answer is "no".

But this week saw a significant move towards an evidence-based view that might yet influence the politicians.

At the invitation of the Cambridge Assessment agency, a group of experts gathered at Westminster to pool their research knowledge and grapple towards a definition of a "good teacher".

The timing was excellent since the House of Commons Schools and Families select committee is about to start an inquiry into teacher training.

And it was encouraging that its chairman, Barry Sheerman, who chaired this seminar, said his committee preferred to be informed by evidence based on thorough research rather than on opinion.

Teachers with the highest qualifications are not automatically the "best" teachers in the classroom

The timing was good in another way too.

Ofsted has just issued a report praising the innovative teacher-training programme, Teach First.

This scheme places high-quality graduates straight into challenging secondary schools for two years.

In this way it offers practical and hands-on training much earlier than in a traditional teacher training course.

According to Ofsted, the Teach First scheme is both producing a very high proportion of "outstanding" teachers and is also helping to transform the inner-city schools where they are being trained.

It also attracted graduates who might not otherwise have considered teaching.

So this is a good moment to reassess what it is that produces good teachers.

This question also relates to some of the reaction to last week's column, when I wrote about research that found independent schools were recruiting a disproportionate number of the "best" teachers, as defined by those with higher degrees.

A number of respondents took issue with this definition of what makes the "best" teachers.

I should say here, in defence of the researchers, that they used this measure because it was the only one that they could quantify for statistical analysis.

'Soft and fluffy'

They would agree, as would I, that teachers with the highest qualifications are not automatically the "best" teachers in the classroom.

Having got that off our chests, let's turn to what the experts were saying.

Professor Patricia Broadfoot, a former Professor of Education and now vice-chancellor of the University of Gloucestershire, argued persuasively that the evidence from international studies showed that "the highest quality teaching and learning comes when we have the greatest autonomy for the teacher and the learner".

The good teacher, she went on, was someone who was "left to get on with what they think their students need".

This certainly sounded like a rejection of the prescriptive approach of the national curriculum and the numeracy and literacy strategies. Professor Broadfoot went on to propose a much more child-centred approach.

While insisting she was not advocating a "soft and fluffy" style of teaching, she argued that research showed that a good teacher had to engage with "the powerfully charged emotional relationship between teacher and pupil".

So, for Professor Broadfoot, the key ingredients of good teaching included: creating an atmosphere of mutual respect and fairness in the classroom, providing opportunities for "active learning" and humour to encourage pupil engagement, making learning interesting, and explaining things clearly.

'Creative subversion'

Professor Debra Myhill, from Exeter University, took a similar line. She argued that while good subject knowledge and intellectual ability were both important, they were not "sufficient" to be a good teacher.

The crucial ingredient, she argued, was a teacher's ability to reflect on his or her own performance and then to change it.

She too argued for a healthy scepticism towards national policy initiatives.

Indeed she advocated that a good teacher should go in for "creative subversion".

By this, she meant that teachers should neither passively comply with government initiatives, nor should they point blank refuse to implement them.

Instead they should "adapt them creatively".

The third expert, Professor Mary James, from the Institute of Education drew on the massive, 10-year long teaching and learning research programme for her recipe for good teachers.

Maybe the wheel is turning?

One of her top 10 requirements was that the teacher should "promote the active engagement of the learner".

Citing studies that showed the academic gains from children working collaboratively in groups, she argued: "If learners are not involved in their learning, they do not learn".

She noted that teachers liked to be given practical guidance on how to improve their teaching, yet what they really needed to develop was their own judgment of what works and what does not work in their own teaching.

This emphasis on engaging pupils and self-reflective teaching might horrify those who support a more traditional subject-based, discipline-oriented approach.

Indeed, for those with long memories, it was the politicians' loss of confidence in child-centred learning that led to the creation of the national curriculum and, with it, a system of national testing to handcuff teachers to a framework of required knowledge.

But maybe the wheel is turning?

The new curriculum for 11-14 year olds, due to start in September, puts much greater emphasis on teacher innovation and local adaptability to pupils' needs.

The big question now is whether - after 20 years of being told exactly what and how to teach - there are enough teachers ready to be "creatively subversive"?

Also, after years of being told in precise detail how to teach, will teachers feel ready both to devise their own way of teaching and engaging students and also constantly to evaluate and adapt their own teaching methods.

We might also ask whether it is too much to ask teachers to do this when, for some, just asserting crowd control requires all their energies.

Finally, although no-one explicitly said a "good teacher" needed to like children, I think this was implicit in their definitions.

However, Professor Myhill did say that "a teacher who hates children may be very good at class management but they are unlikely to be very good at encouraging learning".

Name
Your E-mail address
Town & Country
Comments

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/education/7209096.stm

Published: 2008/01/26 00:01:55 GMT

© BBC MMVIII
 

xoa

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
78
Gender
Male
HSC
2002
A minimum ENTER of 56? :uhoh:

This is a joke, right?

That's the bottom 15% of the class.
 

xoa

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
78
Gender
Male
HSC
2002
aMUSEd1977 said:
You do realise that the UAI/ENTER/TER etc cutoffs are based on supply and demand, rather than actual performance?
I don't follow.

If a uni's ENTER cutoff is 56, that would mean they accept people with an ENTER as low as 56, right? That would be the consequence of low student demand.
 

RogueAcademic

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
859
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
aMUSEd1977 said:
You do realise that the UAI/ENTER/TER etc cutoffs are based on supply and demand, rather than actual performance?
But the point that a few people were making in this thread was that not-so-high-achievers (for lack of a better term) would make better teachers than high-achievers?
 

bassistx

Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
985
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2008
I want to teach just because. It's not the UAI cut-off that's appealing or anything. In fact, the UAI cut-off makes me think I'm not slacking off enough. Afterall, I need only 75 :)

But I agree, amused: it's only about 1 year of study. Anybody can become a genius in their final year. It's just about memorizing textbooks.

What makes good teachers is passion. If they're passionate about what they teach, you'll catch on. That's why I want to teach Italian - my Italian teacher is so fun, interactive, and passionate - you can't help but learn and love it so much you want to do the same one day.

EDIT: I heard from my Visual Arts teacher that DipEds are useless now and you have to have a degree. Is this true? Also, a family friend couldn't teach with a DipEd or BEd because it had to be "teaching", not "education". Wtf?
 

bassistx

Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
985
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2008
grr that link is blocked.
No wonder.. She taught at a private school.
 

Captain Gh3y

Rhinorhondothackasaurus
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
4,153
Location
falling from grace with god
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
aMUSEd1977 said:
I'll let you in on a little secret - an Education degree requires a heck of a lot of dedication. There are individuals that won't work as hard as they can (or should) but to organise practicum (teaching for 1-2 weeks, sometimes more - depends on the Institution, Year of Student (e.g. third year) and the school) is an extremely difficult and time consuming activity. I can only assume that P. Ashton was whinging about High School students, or does a Kinder students already have a 99.xx potential built in? All the education students I attend university with did not choose their field (Science or Maths Education) because they didn't have another choice, it was because of a desire to teach, and a genuine career goal. The ones who are their to transfer OR because of indecision are often weeded out with First Practicum.
Agreed, but arguably

exphate said:
All the education students I attend university with did not choose their field (Science or Maths Education) because they didn't have another choice, it was because of a desire to teach, and a genuine career goal.
There really aren't very many people who choose Science or Maths education (about 30/800 at my uni of those who started last year) so it's more likely than not that that will be the case for them.
 

decypher

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
131
Gender
Male
HSC
2006
The biggest problem with the comment is that it is based on the assumption that a high UAI/ENTER is the same as a high level of intelligence, and based on the system we currently have that is simple not true.
 

RogueAcademic

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
859
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
RogueAcademic said:
"How is a potential teacher with an ENTER score of 56 going to have the capacity to teach students who may be capable of an ENTER score of 99?
Pauline Ashton, Maribyrnong."
It's been almost a month since I started this thread. I've gone back and re-read the original quote by Pauline Ashton.

When it comes down to it, it is reasonable to assume that a high school graduate who has an ENTER score of 56 did not understand the school material well enough to perform in the assessed tasks or the end-of-year exams. Or, it may be that the high school graduate lacks necessary exam skills to perform adequately.

Perhaps the straight and simple question posed by Pauline Ashton is how can a potential teacher who lacks an understanding of the material, or lacks exam skills, or inability (or lack of motivation) to learn these skills, pass these skills/understanding of the materials on to future students. Notwithstanding other positive abilities they may have.
"Professor Debra Myhill, from Exeter University, took a similar line. She argued that while good subject knowledge and intellectual ability were both important, they were not "sufficient" to be a good teacher."
Irrespective of the actual popularity of education courses and its effect on the ENTER score, why not raise the ENTER? Raising the score ensures that 'good subject knowledge and intellectual ability' is covered (I understand that real intellectual ability may not be necessarily reflected in the ENTER though). Other important aspects of being a good teacher can then be taught during the education course.


aMUSEd1977 said:
Take my First Session mathematics lecturer. Obviously a ridiculously intelligent guy, who holds a PhD in some strand of Pure Mathematics. But has the personality of a doorknob, and was unable to TEACH for his life.
University lecturers (other than those in the education faculties) generally do not have teaching experience or qualifications, having instead a PhD. A PhD in and of itself is evidence only of expertise in one particular academic topic, not of teaching ability. University lecturing is a different kettle of fish anyway as it is a level of teaching where the students are assumed to be old enough and mature enough to be a bit more independent in their studies.

aMUSEd1977 said:
Then, take a very personable teacher, who probably needs more work on their knowledge of syllabus material. If s/he is unable to explain the syllabus material correctly, this will impact on the way in which students are able to learn and retain information. Sure s/he is a great person, but the imparting of knowledge is watered down. There needs to be a balance.
I think this may be what Pauline Ashton is referring to. A low ENTER score is indicative of a lack of understanding of syllabus material (or lack of exam skills).

aMUSEd1977 said:
I'll let you in on a little secret - an Education degree requires a heck of a lot of dedication. There are individuals that won't work as hard as they can (or should) but to organise practicum (teaching for 1-2 weeks, sometimes more - depends on the Institution, Year of Student (e.g. third year) and the school) is an extremely difficult and time consuming activity.
I don't doubt that at all, it is not a point of contention for me. A low ENTER score is not necessarily indicative of lack of dedication. There are other reasons as to why a student may perform relatively poorly in high school. In saying that though, it is still reasonable to consider it within the realm of a possible reason for poor academic performance.

Bringing it back to what I was saying earlier in this post about what Pauline Ashton might be saying - how can a potential teacher who lacks an understanding of the material, or lacks exam skills, or inability (or lack of motivation) to learn these skills, pass these skills/understanding of the materials on to future students.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top