"Communism is the greatest evil unleashed on humanity" (2 Viewers)

[Zeitgeist308]

A man borrows another s boat, he uses this boat to catch fish, who is entitled to the fish, the boat owner or the fisherman?

I am taking this as a hypothetical question re communism. Here there are a lot of factors to consider here.

1. What is the boat in question? A mere canoe, a speedboat or a large fishing trawler?
2. Why does the man borrowing the boat not have in his possession one such boat as well (assuming an abundance of the boats in question relative to consumer demand). If it is a large fishing trawler it will not be the property of anyone but rather utilised by a person(s) so as to catch fish for the collective.
3. Assuming the man catches very few fish and only for the purpose of leisure he may choose to appropriate them immediately and do with them as he wishes. In the case that he catches many (ie he is using a large fishing trawler and participating in co-operative labour) he would give them up to the collective where he and others may appropriate them for their own use (ie. sustinance).

so if we dont submit are we killed

There is nothing wrong with a workers opposition. Workers can freely form associations, groups or parties who run in soviet elections on the basis of varying platforms. However if a non-workers (bourgeois) opposition springs up and owing to it's non-representation in the workers state (workers' councils/soviets) wished to openly declare war on the working people and their state organs (workers' councils/soviets) in the form of armed resistance, acts of sabotage, terrorism etc. they will be suppressed with the means necessary, meaning the immediate confiscation of property and punishment by means of jail terms, the death penalty or any other means.

The workers state, just like the bourgeois state, is the means by which the class maintains and exercises it's power. Unlike all hitherto existing states however, it will not be an organ for the mediation and perpetuation of class society. It's task is to exercise the rule of the proletariat, but more than that, to liquidate the remnants of the exploiting classes.

 

[Captain Hero]

Communism is not the greatest evil unleashed on humanity; [/thread]

This thread just amped up my love for the post-singularity post-scarcity Economics 2.0 future we'll soon be living in.

 

[nikolas]

I am taking this as a hypothetical question re communism. Here there are a lot of factors to consider here.

1. What is the boat in question? A mere canoe, a speedboat or a large fishing trawler?
2. Why does the man borrowing the boat not have in his possession one such boat as well (assuming an abundance of the boats in question relative to consumer demand). If it is a large fishing trawler it will not be the property of anyone but rather utilised by a person(s) so as to catch fish for the collective.
3. Assuming the man catches very few fish and only for the purpose of leisure he may choose to appropriate them immediately and do with them as he wishes. In the case that he catches many (ie he is using a large fishing trawler and participating in co-operative labour) he would give them up to the collective where he and others may appropriate them for their own use (ie. sustinance).



There is nothing wrong with a workers opposition. Workers can freely form associations, groups or parties who run in soviet elections on the basis of varying platforms. However if a non-workers (bourgeois) opposition springs up and owing to it's non-representation in the workers state (workers' councils/soviets) wished to openly declare war on the working people and their state organs (workers' councils/soviets) in the form of armed resistance, acts of sabotage, terrorism etc. they will be suppressed with the means necessary, meaning the immediate confiscation of property and punishment by means of jail terms, the death penalty or any other means.

The workers state, just like the bourgeois state, is the means by which the class maintains and exercises it's power. Unlike all hitherto existing states however, it will not be an organ for the mediation and perpetuation of class society. It's task is to exercise the rule of the proletariat, but more than that, to liquidate the remnants of the exploiting classes.

I think you looked way to deep into the analogy.

but ill go anyway

1. Small fishing boat. For the purpose of the analogy i don't think it matters anyway.

2. For the purposes of the analogy again, i don't think it matters. On the other half of this point i agree.

3. i agree.

The answer to my question is that it belongs to the worker (fisherman)

 

[nikolas]

Also many people cite the Soviet Unions failure as proof Communism is crap.
However;

1. Many people don't even consider Soviet Russia as true Communism.

2. They ignore the fact the Soviet Union transformed itself from Serfdom (peasant Society) into a Space faring, Nuclear Super Power in the short space of 50 years.

 

[Zeitgeist308]

The answer to my question is that it belongs to the worker (fisherman)

Well again that depends on the circumstance. A miner who mines diamonds or a factory worker who takes part in the production of auto mobiles does not take into his immediate possession the product of his labour (the diamonds and the auto mobiles respectively). The product of his labour goes to the "common pot" from which he himself draws. Of course it would be ludicrous to say that a man who produces a work of art in his spare time or maintains a small herb garden on his veranda, must give up the art work or the herbs to the "common pot". It's really a question of practicality which I'm sure a society which is freely, democratically and consciously organised and sustained can manage.

2. They ignore the fact the Soviet Union transformed itself from Serfdom (peasant Society) into a Space faring, Nuclear Super Power in the short space of 50 years.

Doesn't the above contradict this point? Matter of fact it shows the wonders that (state-)capitalism can accomplish in a backward societies.

 

[nikolas]

Doesn't the above contradict this point? Matter of fact it shows the wonders that (state-)capitalism can accomplish in a backward societies.

Not necessarily, (was hoping this wouldn't be picked up actually).

The point is that economically the soviet union was a success, regardless whether it was a true communism or not. And about the state capitlism phase didn't that last like a month Russia (forgive my lack of history expertise)

 

[Zeitgeist308]

And about the state capitlism phase didn't that last like a month Russia (forgive my lack of history expertise)

I am of the opinion it lasted for some 70 years

 

[nikolas]

I am of the opinion it lasted for some 70 years

ah touche

 

[zstar]

Anyway I'm tired of arguing this.

However I find alot of you views are similar to the venus project.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

It's non-Marxist but also argues for a similar wageless, profitless society.

We'll see how well this idea works.

 

[Zeitgeist308]

Anyway I'm tired of arguing this.

Good, as am I. It's a shame we couldn't come to any common ground. I would still greatly recommend that if you ever do get a chance you aught to read Marx and Engels (or any other Marxists for that matter) if not in agreement with it but simply to gain of it a better knowledge and understanding, even if for the purpose of critique. Either way it will never go astray.

However I find alot of you views are similar to the venus project.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

It's non-Marxist but also argues for a similar wageless, profitless society.

This so called "Venus Project" may have some superficial similarities to Marxism (ie. it presents an example of a technocratic (socialist) society), however what it is, is a perfect example of utopia making, akin to the "utopian socialists" Marx and Engels so vehemently critiqued (despite drawing influence from them).

 

[wagga]

Also many people cite the Soviet Unions failure as proof Communism is crap.
However;

1. Many people don't even consider Soviet Russia as true Communism.

2. They ignore the fact the Soviet Union transformed itself from Serfdom (peasant Society) into a Space faring, Nuclear Super Power in the short space of 50 years.

Your right in saying the USSR wasn't pure communism, but then again there are few if any examples of 'pure capitalism' either. As for their economic development, you forget that much of the investment in military capability came at the expense of pretty much anything else, much of the USSR was still extremely poor. Basically it was broke from the mid 1970s onwards.

 

[nick1689]

Here's a query for everyone: would Communism still exist, in one form or another, if Karl Marx never lived?

 

[ASNSWR127]

Here's a query for everyone: would Communism still exist, in one form or another, if Karl Marx never lived?

Maybe not communism per se but certainly some form of socialism

We would have to have realised that it is the best way forward...

 

[Cookie182]

ad hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

you are criticism the individual. Stick to telling us how you disagree with his previous statement

Hahahahahaha

Perhaps you should learn to write a sentence before giving out advice regarding argument structure

 

[Zeitgeist308]

Here's a query for everyone: would Communism still exist, in one form or another, if Karl Marx never lived?

Marxism as it stands today, no. Communism as a social and political movement, I believe yes. I believe this to be the case working within the framework of historical materialism, a scientific view of history which is diametrically opposed to idealist "great men" theories.

Communism is the product of capitalist relations of production, that is to say, of the class struggle. Communism is not an ideal, the product of a "great mind" to which the world must adjust itself.

Of course this is not to say we completely rule out the individual and the importance of "great men" in history. If it were not for Lenin the October Revolution most certainly would not have happened when it did, but those same material conditions which facilitated the revolution would have still taken effect, yielding in much the same manner (despite differences in detail).

 

[Cookie182]

Marxism as it stands today, no. Communism as a social and political movement, I believe yes. I believe this to be the case working within the framework of historical materialism, a scientific view of history which is diametrically opposed to idealist "great men" theories.

Communism is the product of capitalist relations of production, that is to say, of the class struggle. Communism is not an ideal, the product of a "great mind" to which the world must adjust itself.

Of course this is not to say we completely rule out the individual and the importance of "great men" in history. If it were not for Lenin the October Revolution most certainly would not have happened when it did, but those same material conditions which facilitated the revolution would have still taken effect, yielding in much the same manner (despite differences in detail).

Why do you care so much? Is your life that bad under our current political system? Since your in year 11, the only way you could of acquired the knowledge you have is through extra-curricular reading, correct? Why not go out and have some fun instead of debating failed political theory?

Please do not reply with extensive reasons as to why communism can be successful and that I am 'brainwashed' by the West. I have heard it all before and I honestly do not care enough. I can understand and respect that you find it stimulating as an academic thought, but you must admit the whole debate ends in circles. Wait untill uni, do a BA in political science and you can piss in the wind as much as you want for three whole years.

For me personally, I live in Australia, I'm stoked to be here, I don't plan on leaving and it ain't going to be under a communist regime anytime soon.

/thread.

 

[tommykins]

回复: Re: "Communism is the greatest evil unleashed on humanity"

Why do you care so much? Is your life that bad under our current political system? Since your in year 11, the only way you could of acquired the knowledge you have is through extra-curricular reading, correct? Why not go out and have some fun instead of debating failed political theory?

Please do not reply with extensive reasons as to why communism can be successful and that I am 'brainwashed' by the West. I have heard it all before and I honestly do not care enough. I can understand and respect that you find it stimulating as an academic thought, but you must admit the whole debate ends in circles. Wait untill uni, do a BA in political science and you can piss in the wind as much as you want for three whole years.

For me personally, I live in Australia, I'm stoked to be here, I don't plan on leaving and it ain't going to be under a communist regime anytime soon.

/thread.

Shit post.

Why do you care that he cares so much?

 

[auerbach]

Communism itself is not evil. It is indeed a pathetic and childish excuse for a political theory, but evil it is not. The men who have used it to advance their twisted doctrines are evil, but so too was Henry VIII evil. Does that mean monarchy is evil? Advocates of communism always fall back on the weak argument that communism works in THEORY, but doesn't a dictatorship work in theory? Surely in a perfect world, any political system would do. In fact, we wouldn't even need a political system. Yes I submit, that a world without politics would hardly be perfect.

 

[Zeitgeist308]

Is your life that bad under our current political system?

Define 'bad'. Unless you give a definition I refuse to use such a useless, black and white, emotive and subjective term.

Since your in year 11, the only way you could of acquired the knowledge you have is through extra-curricular reading, correct?

Of Marxism, yes.

Why not go out and have some fun instead of debating failed political theory?

1) What constitutes communist political theory?
2) What constitutes failure?
3) Assuming communist political theory has "failed" why does make it not worth debating?

Please do not reply with extensive reasons as to why communism can be successful

Ignorance is bliss? Or maybe you just can't follow what I'm saying...

Please do not reply [...] that I am 'brainwashed' by the West.

I haven't made the claim that anyone is "'brainwashed' by the West" to anyone in this entire thread.

I have heard it all before and I honestly do not care enough.

Why am I not surprised?

In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production. The totality of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness. - Marx, Preface to the Critique of Political Economy​

I can understand and respect that you find it stimulating as an academic thought, but you must admit the whole debate ends in circles.

That only happens when debating with knuckle heads or those who Communist theory has no bearing on.

For me personally, I live in Australia, I'm stoked to be here, I don't plan on leaving and it ain't going to be under a communist regime anytime soon.

Where are these so-called "communist regimes"? Considering the term is contradictory I would love to know where I can find them.

/thread.

You know that has been calimed 4 times throughout the entire thread? Funny how despite the proclamation of it's end it keeps on popping up. Hmmmm, that actually reminds me a little of something else...

It is indeed a pathetic and childish excuse for a political theory

Big claims you make there. Care to bag them up with an arguement I haven't wiped the floor with already in this thread?

Advocates of communism always fall back on the weak argument that communism works in THEORY

No Marxist worth his weight would ever do such a thing. Maybe you don't understand the difference between "utopian socialism" and "scientific socialism"?

but doesn't a dictatorship work in theory

Communism? Dictatorship? I don't follow you.

Surely in a perfect world, any political system would do

1) Define perfect world
2) Refer to the above quote from Marx indicating otherwise. Only a "perfect" political system would correspond to your given definition of a "perfect world"
3) Since when do Marxist claim the world is perfect? Far from it matter of fact! We critique it based on it's division into classes, taking the revolutionary class struggle as the basis of our politics.

 

[ASNSWR127]

Why do you care so much? Is your life that bad under our current political system? Since your in year 11, the only way you could of acquired the knowledge you have is through extra-curricular reading, correct? Why not go out and have some fun instead of debating failed political theory?

Please do not reply with extensive reasons as to why communism can be successful and that I am 'brainwashed' by the West. I have heard it all before and I honestly do not care enough. I can understand and respect that you find it stimulating as an academic thought, but you must admit the whole debate ends in circles. Wait untill uni, do a BA in political science and you can piss in the wind as much as you want for three whole years.

For me personally, I live in Australia, I'm stoked to be here, I don't plan on leaving and it ain't going to be under a communist regime anytime soon.

/thread.

Really childish post.

it is far better to debate these so called "failed political theories" then not at all and maintain the status quo indefinitely.